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Looks like Betfair have followed the bookies path and instead of banning winners there going to hit them with a 22.5% commission charge.
Any Betfair winning account from the middle of October will have to have paid at least 20% commission or they will be hit by a extra charges the following Wednesday.
The real insult is those of us who have a high winning ratio even though we paid 5% commission we only be credited with 3% which leaves us another 17% to find.
Generally what its going to mean even if you don't have a winning account
Is that a lot of the competition on prices on here between punters and layers will now probably dry up as very few guys will be able now to make a go of betfair if they have to paid 22.5% commission and still offer best prices.
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Betfair Customer Services 01 Oct 13:35
On 12th October 2009 we will be making some changes to the Premium Charge mechanism. The changes are being made following a period of review, during which we have consulted and collated feedback from over 300 customers. The changes are designed to simplify the charge and have been devised specifically to address the most consistent topics of concern expressed by customers, both those who have incurred the charge and those who havent.
We anticipate that the changes will reduce the number of customers affected by the charge and also the total amount of Premium Charges collected each week.
The changes can be summarised as follows:
Increase the 60 week calculation period to the
Any Betfair winning account from the middle of October will have to have paid at least 20% commission or they will be hit by a extra charges the following Wednesday.
The real insult is those of us who have a high winning ratio even though we paid 5% commission we only be credited with 3% which leaves us another 17% to find.
Generally what its going to mean even if you don't have a winning account
Is that a lot of the competition on prices on here between punters and layers will now probably dry up as very few guys will be able now to make a go of betfair if they have to paid 22.5% commission and still offer best prices.
............................................................................................................
Betfair Customer Services 01 Oct 13:35
On 12th October 2009 we will be making some changes to the Premium Charge mechanism. The changes are being made following a period of review, during which we have consulted and collated feedback from over 300 customers. The changes are designed to simplify the charge and have been devised specifically to address the most consistent topics of concern expressed by customers, both those who have incurred the charge and those who havent.
We anticipate that the changes will reduce the number of customers affected by the charge and also the total amount of Premium Charges collected each week.
The changes can be summarised as follows:
Increase the 60 week calculation period to the
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No plans to repay commission to losing accounts then
Moneypenny....Losing Accounts, is all they are going to be with on here..
Anybody who has a winning account is going to take off which is going to kill the chances of even getting decent prices for the losers left.
As its just common sense when your winning its much easier to bet whether as a punter or a layer since you feel you can take a chance the guy with the losing account has to think twice about.
So eventually the markets on here will run short of liquildy except the ones you can bet on anywhere else ie horse racing in running.
But that was never a market I was interested in since like most my TV pictures were 3 seconds behind the boys betting in the exchange shops.....Cheers
Anybody who has a winning account is going to take off which is going to kill the chances of even getting decent prices for the losers left.
As its just common sense when your winning its much easier to bet whether as a punter or a layer since you feel you can take a chance the guy with the losing account has to think twice about.
So eventually the markets on here will run short of liquildy except the ones you can bet on anywhere else ie horse racing in running.
But that was never a market I was interested in since like most my TV pictures were 3 seconds behind the boys betting in the exchange shops.....Cheers
they are greedy ba$tards plus you would need a degree in code breaking just to understand how they work these things out in the first place.it wont affect me but taking 20 odd % off winning accounts is a disgrace.
Greed may well kill the goose that laid the golden egg alright.
i only use betfair to trade out of or consolidate a position but if there ever came a point where they tried to charge me 20% or more i would close my acc immediately.
It's highly likely that most people pay 20% commission on their turnover.
Win 100 Commission 5
Lose 400 Commission 0
Win 200 Commission 10
Win 300 Commission 15
Lose 100 Commission 0
Turnover 1100 Winning 100 Commission 30
This is a very small sample but just shows that even winners are UNLIKELY to be hit by this charge as this example shows 30% rate.
Very few people win with EVERY bet struck esp on the horses.
Win 100 Commission 5
Lose 400 Commission 0
Win 200 Commission 10
Win 300 Commission 15
Lose 100 Commission 0
Turnover 1100 Winning 100 Commission 30
This is a very small sample but just shows that even winners are UNLIKELY to be hit by this charge as this example shows 30% rate.
Very few people win with EVERY bet struck esp on the horses.
BJG....Yeah no choice.....Its a no brainer......Its be months probably now YEARS on here before I could get the Premiun Charges off my back.
Flippant Cork h00rs they really landed me in it now. :^0
I should have been cheering on Cork in the final then I wouldn't have been stuck like this.
I was going to say I still do the odd bet here in the future but I don't think I can. As a winning account record according to the new regulations will stay with you here. But there is no way I'm going to pay 22.5% commission on the odd 50 bet here or there..... ITS CRAZY
Flippant Cork h00rs they really landed me in it now. :^0
I should have been cheering on Cork in the final then I wouldn't have been stuck like this.
I was going to say I still do the odd bet here in the future but I don't think I can. As a winning account record according to the new regulations will stay with you here. But there is no way I'm going to pay 22.5% commission on the odd 50 bet here or there..... ITS CRAZY
Soap, losses are counted in calculating the premium charge as you add the commission paid and implied commission and divide by 2, so in your example it works out at 21.5 and not 30, only narrowly avoiding the pc.
Apologies Frank. Horse Racing is impossible to win 25% profits which most of us bet on.
No short-term prospect of me paying premium charge as I am a career loser on here , so unless I click something big I will not be charged in the foreseeable future .
If someone is a lifetime winner on here , and is paying the premium charge , would they not try to rectify that ? Better paying someone else 5% to avoid the 20% ?
No doubt some of the clever minds will figure out a solution .
I do know some Betfair traders who set out to be serial losers when the premium charge was first introduced . Must check out if it worked for them .
Ultimately I think the premium charge is aimed at the bots , maybe I am wrong , but if someone wins ALL the time there is a specific reason .
If someone is a lifetime winner on here , and is paying the premium charge , would they not try to rectify that ? Better paying someone else 5% to avoid the 20% ?
No doubt some of the clever minds will figure out a solution .
I do know some Betfair traders who set out to be serial losers when the premium charge was first introduced . Must check out if it worked for them .
Ultimately I think the premium charge is aimed at the bots , maybe I am wrong , but if someone wins ALL the time there is a specific reason .
should only affect :
Bots
Traders
Inside info merchants
A few winning arbs here & there should keep everyone else under par.
Bots
Traders
Inside info merchants
A few winning arbs here & there should keep everyone else under par.
KELLY and CUPWINK. If you think it only there to punish Bots users and traders. Look at the last line of their statement again.
e.g. extremely consistent customers currently betting on less than 250 markets in any 60 week period) will become more likely to incur Premium Charges as a result
How many Bots or Traders are making money betting on less than 4 markets a WEEK....I tell you NONE.
What more they annouced removal of the data charges to in that statement today. How many average punters were paying that NONE..... Who was paying then ? The BOT users.
Does that all sound to you, they don't want Bot users on Betfair or even traders?.
Nah this is a money raiseing exercise full stop for Betfair and its out to get as many in the net as it can inspite of what they told us in the past......Cheers
e.g. extremely consistent customers currently betting on less than 250 markets in any 60 week period) will become more likely to incur Premium Charges as a result
How many Bots or Traders are making money betting on less than 4 markets a WEEK....I tell you NONE.
What more they annouced removal of the data charges to in that statement today. How many average punters were paying that NONE..... Who was paying then ? The BOT users.
Does that all sound to you, they don't want Bot users on Betfair or even traders?.
Nah this is a money raiseing exercise full stop for Betfair and its out to get as many in the net as it can inspite of what they told us in the past......Cheers
I suppose you're right
looks like it's punters playing antepost markets and little else so, who are the big losers
got to admit since I had to quit trading at work, my volume has plummetted.
looks like it's punters playing antepost markets and little else so, who are the big losers
got to admit since I had to quit trading at work, my volume has plummetted.
CUPWINK.....Do you think KELLY is trying to sell his losing account to us? :^0 ....Gas Man.
Bless , not sure who the extremely consistent punters are who bet on less than 250 markets in a 60 week period . They sound like punters who do not have daily transactions , just in sporadically and off with their winnings . Cant be done without inside info .
Have not studied the implications myself , as it should not affect me . Once upon a time it would have affected me , but I developed an instinct for losing on here ( less commission ) and luckily it now stands me in good stead . Just luck though , no huge plan . Mainly down to Tiger too .
Maybe thats why the bookies closed most of my accounts . Tried to back someone today in the Dunhill and was offered 1.43 ( to win 20 I assume ) , about an hour ago . Withdrew virtually all my balance , obviously stake limitation going on , but no notice . And only about 5 bets a month with them . Its become a jungle out there , and the bean counters are in charge of the office . Cheers .
Have not studied the implications myself , as it should not affect me . Once upon a time it would have affected me , but I developed an instinct for losing on here ( less commission ) and luckily it now stands me in good stead . Just luck though , no huge plan . Mainly down to Tiger too .
Maybe thats why the bookies closed most of my accounts . Tried to back someone today in the Dunhill and was offered 1.43 ( to win 20 I assume ) , about an hour ago . Withdrew virtually all my balance , obviously stake limitation going on , but no notice . And only about 5 bets a month with them . Its become a jungle out there , and the bean counters are in charge of the office . Cheers .
Thats an idea , Bless . All offers considered . Maybe some people would think thats not a bad idea , but might be hard to configure !
There you are KELLY, Betfair will make you rich after all just sell off that losing account to one of us.
:^0
Its actually easy enough to Kelly to end up with under 250 markets in that 60 weeks.
I did it after been forced to last year when they first introduced the Premiun Charge rule. I just cut out the fun betting areas where I wasn't making any money on like the GAA matches. If you noticed I stopped this year doing the weekly GAA previews.....That was why.
It wasn't because I was actually losing money on the GAA matches it was more than it was taken me over the 250 market mark which would have put me on the 22.5% commission mark for my major bets of which I probably have about 15 in a year.
Likewise the full time golf punters like Frames would only have 2 markets a week at best since they would only bet on the Two Golf Outright market.
Actually anyone who just chooses to bet in there specialise sport, horse racing apart could now fall into the Premiun Charge trap now when before they were exempt due to the 250 market 60 week rule which has now been removed.....
The flippant rule is DEADLY.... Your best to run a mile from it......Cheers
:^0
Its actually easy enough to Kelly to end up with under 250 markets in that 60 weeks.
I did it after been forced to last year when they first introduced the Premiun Charge rule. I just cut out the fun betting areas where I wasn't making any money on like the GAA matches. If you noticed I stopped this year doing the weekly GAA previews.....That was why.
It wasn't because I was actually losing money on the GAA matches it was more than it was taken me over the 250 market mark which would have put me on the 22.5% commission mark for my major bets of which I probably have about 15 in a year.
Likewise the full time golf punters like Frames would only have 2 markets a week at best since they would only bet on the Two Golf Outright market.
Actually anyone who just chooses to bet in there specialise sport, horse racing apart could now fall into the Premiun Charge trap now when before they were exempt due to the 250 market 60 week rule which has now been removed.....
The flippant rule is DEADLY.... Your best to run a mile from it......Cheers
Will the new charges not encouraging those that pay the premium charges to Arb accross here, the purple site and the bookies?
Bernie....No that doesn't work and is far from simple to do.
A lot of guy have ended up backing team (A) here and team (B) somewhere else for the same amount.
Only to find that team (A) who they thought were a sure loser, Win which left them now even further up to their neck in Premiun Charges.
Anyway is it worth the effort? The day of best prices after all the charges over here now seem to have long gone. Something which I first noticed around this time last year when they first introduced Premiun Charges.
But sure its there business and if they want to run it into the ground so be it. They won't be the first successfull company who lost the plot and they won't be the last....Its just a pity.....
Guess I need a change of habit now. :^0
A lot of guy have ended up backing team (A) here and team (B) somewhere else for the same amount.
Only to find that team (A) who they thought were a sure loser, Win which left them now even further up to their neck in Premiun Charges.
Anyway is it worth the effort? The day of best prices after all the charges over here now seem to have long gone. Something which I first noticed around this time last year when they first introduced Premiun Charges.
But sure its there business and if they want to run it into the ground so be it. They won't be the first successfull company who lost the plot and they won't be the last....Its just a pity.....
Guess I need a change of habit now. :^0
Thsi could be costing betfair in the long run because people cannot do simple arbs now by backing with a bookie and laying on betfair if they dont know exactly how much they will make from their bet on betfair when the PC is calculated at the end of the week.
BLESSINGTON I'LL BE SEEING YOU AT B.E.T.D.A.Q
BLESSINGTON I'LL BE SEEING YOU AT B.E.T.D.A.Q
Is there any room left on Purple? Didn't everybody leave to join there when the first PC was introduced?
PS Bless I haven't seen you this agitated since you decided that Brian Lenihan was a genius :_| for nationalising Anglo Irish Bank and guaranteeing all bank deposits and loans.
PS Bless I haven't seen you this agitated since you decided that Brian Lenihan was a genius :_| for nationalising Anglo Irish Bank and guaranteeing all bank deposits and loans.
A lot of guy have ended up backing team (A) here and team (B) somewhere else for the same amount.
Only to find that team (A) who they thought were a sure loser, Win which left them now even further up to their neck in Premiun Charges.
Anyway is it worth the effort? The day of best prices after all the charges over here now seem to have long gone. Something which I first noticed around this time last year when they first introduced Premiun Charges.
Fair point. A friend of mine was charged a good chunk a few months back and had a brief spell of arbing on various sports in a bid to get down the pc. Ended up counting against him on a number of occasions and, having spent hours upon end playing around for little gain, has seemed to give up on the plan.
Only to find that team (A) who they thought were a sure loser, Win which left them now even further up to their neck in Premiun Charges.
Anyway is it worth the effort? The day of best prices after all the charges over here now seem to have long gone. Something which I first noticed around this time last year when they first introduced Premiun Charges.
Fair point. A friend of mine was charged a good chunk a few months back and had a brief spell of arbing on various sports in a bid to get down the pc. Ended up counting against him on a number of occasions and, having spent hours upon end playing around for little gain, has seemed to give up on the plan.
TOTO...Its looks like I'm afraid so.
and many others who just haven't felt that despair yet you get on a Wednesday when you suddenly seek a hole appear in your available to bet balance.
Not to mention the removal of competition of all us from the betting markets both as punters and layers. :(
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CALLINI...I'm not agitated in the slightest the other side works alright for me and the way I bet . Its just now I have to change my habits. I'm not afraid now either to use a bookmaker now when I have to. As nowdays their prices are often just as good or BETTER.
As for Brian my faith in him has been if anything UNDERATED especially now if he reduces the Civil Servants wages by 5%.
It was them not the bankers or builders who got us in this mess. Look what happens to our young people when they leave school they either end up as selfish builders or banker or as craic heads with their bags of glue. Nah Brian finally see's where the problem came from. :^0
As for Anglo Irish I bet they were glad you never fulfilled your mother hopes and ended up as Minster for finance otherwises all those poor guys and their families would be on the dole now for what in the end a signature on a page which so far half way through the bank guarntee has cost the country NOTHING. Something which you can't say about our civil servants.
As for been agitated on here I don't think I've been that since last year when Saint Paul got suspended for only knocking the fly off the referee notebook . ;) ........Cheers
and many others who just haven't felt that despair yet you get on a Wednesday when you suddenly seek a hole appear in your available to bet balance.
Not to mention the removal of competition of all us from the betting markets both as punters and layers. :(
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CALLINI...I'm not agitated in the slightest the other side works alright for me and the way I bet . Its just now I have to change my habits. I'm not afraid now either to use a bookmaker now when I have to. As nowdays their prices are often just as good or BETTER.
As for Brian my faith in him has been if anything UNDERATED especially now if he reduces the Civil Servants wages by 5%.
It was them not the bankers or builders who got us in this mess. Look what happens to our young people when they leave school they either end up as selfish builders or banker or as craic heads with their bags of glue. Nah Brian finally see's where the problem came from. :^0
As for Anglo Irish I bet they were glad you never fulfilled your mother hopes and ended up as Minster for finance otherwises all those poor guys and their families would be on the dole now for what in the end a signature on a page which so far half way through the bank guarntee has cost the country NOTHING. Something which you can't say about our civil servants.
As for been agitated on here I don't think I've been that since last year when Saint Paul got suspended for only knocking the fly off the referee notebook . ;) ........Cheers
I remember years ago thinking you were a betfair rep as you never would agree that prices or liquidity on the purple one was better for the GAA. And now you are going across to the dark side. The purple site is fine as long as you are not playing in running or trading.
IRISH LAD...Ah you have to be flexible and go sometimes where the wind is blown you.
Sure I used to think this Kilkenny team might be a great team but after seen them in the All Ireland final I know now they are just a lucky team and the MUNSTER boys will have them next year. B-)
Okay how much will I mark you down for? :^0 See you over there.
Sure I used to think this Kilkenny team might be a great team but after seen them in the All Ireland final I know now they are just a lucky team and the MUNSTER boys will have them next year. B-)
Okay how much will I mark you down for? :^0 See you over there.
Bless, I've been over there for years.
As for the Munster teams, sure other than Kerry, don't most munster teams get a nosebleed when they get to Croker. And its nice that we were lucky this decade against all the Munster hurling teams to win an all ireland.
Tipperary - lucky ref decisions.
Cork - lucky lawnmower machine was broken (my favourite whinge, the Cork fans and the long grass of 2006)
Waterford- lucky that the Waterford team bus broke down on teh way up and they played their under 14 camoige team against us.
Clare - lucky the lunatic had retired
Limerick - lucky that JP had backed the cats in return he'd sponsor Limerick for a few years.
I think you also might find the real challenge will be from fellow Leinster team Galway!
As for the Munster teams, sure other than Kerry, don't most munster teams get a nosebleed when they get to Croker. And its nice that we were lucky this decade against all the Munster hurling teams to win an all ireland.
Tipperary - lucky ref decisions.
Cork - lucky lawnmower machine was broken (my favourite whinge, the Cork fans and the long grass of 2006)
Waterford- lucky that the Waterford team bus broke down on teh way up and they played their under 14 camoige team against us.
Clare - lucky the lunatic had retired
Limerick - lucky that JP had backed the cats in return he'd sponsor Limerick for a few years.
I think you also might find the real challenge will be from fellow Leinster team Galway!
I have to say there has been a huge shift in the balance over the last 18 months. Since the recession a lot of the weak players have gone away for good, so the sharks or even the consistent small winners are struggling a lot more now. Their profits have dropped significantly and their commission over the past 60 weeks is over the 20% limit, so they are not been hit with this extra charge. The problem is over the boom 4 to 5 years previously their commission was probably closer to 12 - 15% and if there lifetime gross profits are included in the calculations, they will surely be hit with this charge.
Irish Lad. I hope for Hurling Kilkenny gets some better challenges next year. You know they went out to 6/4 in the final in-running with pods.
So I can't see too many backing either Kilkenny or Kerry next year in the early stages if they think back on how betting went this year. ie Kerry at 11/2 and starting outsider TWICE in a 3 game period yet only 7/4 this time last year after losing to Tyrone.........Madness and so it proved. :^0
So I can't see too many backing either Kilkenny or Kerry next year in the early stages if they think back on how betting went this year. ie Kerry at 11/2 and starting outsider TWICE in a 3 game period yet only 7/4 this time last year after losing to Tyrone.........Madness and so it proved. :^0
VINNIE...Nobody can win if they have to bet 22.5% of their winning in commission. So the big punters and layers will have to throw their hat at it eventually on here.
As it stands to reason the guys who lays you the biggest prices will always be the guy who was winning in the long run and has money to risk. Likewise the guy who bets most will also be the guy who was winning.
Both these guys are the ones now targeted by Betfair and they won't stick around . Gradually that is going to take liquildy out of the markets which in turn will hit the ordinary Joe Soap on here who never heard of Premiun Charges and never needed to.
I think that all in turn will remove the competition from the Betfair markets and we just be left with another betting outlet of which according to the Racing Post there is now 2000+ internet firms.
As it stands to reason the guys who lays you the biggest prices will always be the guy who was winning in the long run and has money to risk. Likewise the guy who bets most will also be the guy who was winning.
Both these guys are the ones now targeted by Betfair and they won't stick around . Gradually that is going to take liquildy out of the markets which in turn will hit the ordinary Joe Soap on here who never heard of Premiun Charges and never needed to.
I think that all in turn will remove the competition from the Betfair markets and we just be left with another betting outlet of which according to the Racing Post there is now 2000+ internet firms.
I would nt stick around if i had to pay that- id be gone straight away!
Do use the purple site too, liquidity has picked up a lot from wat it was, i like to have a bet ir over the jumps though but poor liquidity ir their so gotta stay here! Hopefully never have to pay it :|
Do use the purple site too, liquidity has picked up a lot from wat it was, i like to have a bet ir over the jumps though but poor liquidity ir their so gotta stay here! Hopefully never have to pay it :|
BJG....It could be out of your hands if the main players here automatically start moving. Which they are going to have to eventually.
You know yourself if you work for 4 months and lived like a hermit and saved 3000 would you lay 10/1 on 300. Probably not.
Likewise if you had won the 3000 in the past and didn't fancy this thing one bit would you risk your bank probably Yes
But the way things are heading its the working hermit who Betfair are going to leave you with.. :^0
You know yourself if you work for 4 months and lived like a hermit and saved 3000 would you lay 10/1 on 300. Probably not.
Likewise if you had won the 3000 in the past and didn't fancy this thing one bit would you risk your bank probably Yes
But the way things are heading its the working hermit who Betfair are going to leave you with.. :^0
Purple hasn't picked like i thought it would. It will be interesting to see if this further rule change will make any difference.
I dont understand how it hasn't. BF have been trying different ways to thieve for the past 18 months. Surely all BD have to do is lower their commision for new accounts for 6 months and put it in neon lights" We wont steal your winnings"
hatama - They lowered the commission to 2% for a period of time, but liquidity is still poor.
BD dont have the staff - they wont pay the going rate for decent traders and hence have to make do with what they have - they still have a chance to make it but need to move it up a gear ...soon
VINNIE....The problem over there at the moment is all Betfair so called sharp minds have moved over there. Because basically its stands to reason its all winners who got burned here.
So now it has to settle down which won't happen overnight probaly 18- 24 months depending on the market.
When I started on Betfair 10 years ago now things here were a lot worse than any of the other exchanges are now. So it just takes times for the liquildy to come.
I suppose the most profitable tip you could give somebody at the moment is keep a eye out over their as thats were the best prices are surely going to be as all the Premiun Charges guys compete to get back there share of turnover they have dropped in the move.
And long make that competition last. B-)
So now it has to settle down which won't happen overnight probaly 18- 24 months depending on the market.
When I started on Betfair 10 years ago now things here were a lot worse than any of the other exchanges are now. So it just takes times for the liquildy to come.
I suppose the most profitable tip you could give somebody at the moment is keep a eye out over their as thats were the best prices are surely going to be as all the Premiun Charges guys compete to get back there share of turnover they have dropped in the move.
And long make that competition last. B-)
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