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24 Nov 09 18:33
Date Joined: 17 Jul 05
| Topic/replies: 274 | Blogger: crouchingtiger1's blog
can someone explain the implication of the irish ring not using exchanges during the month of december?

Will the on course ring be a lot stronger as the hedging money goes around the ring?

Hypothetically if you were lining up a horse for a gamble during the month of december would you be better off waiting for the show or trying to nick whatever you can at the earlies?

Pause Switch to Standard View Irish Ring in December...
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Report rashers. November 25, 2009 7:39 PM GMT
Not true all over, avoided by the majority like the plague
Report closure November 25, 2009 7:41 PM GMT
Thsts right Ian I forgot, only bookmakers are allowed to use Betfair
Report closure November 25, 2009 7:41 PM GMT
In case we might win
Report all over November 25, 2009 8:16 PM GMT
rasher it is true
Report crouchingtiger1 November 25, 2009 9:19 PM GMT
closure 25 Nov 20:41
Thsts right Ian I forgot, only bookmakers are allowed to use Betfair

closure 25 Nov 20:41
In case we might win

No - everyone can use betfair, but 96% of people use. Everybody can't use bookmakers though, unless you form ur opinion early enough when it's not an arb or on the cusp of an arb...tricky customers those bookmakers
Report crouchingtiger1 November 25, 2009 9:20 PM GMT
* 96% lose
Report closure November 25, 2009 9:56 PM GMT
Jeez Marm it is hard to take your tripe at times. You wouldnt be able to pick your nose on yourown without being told where to put your finger and yet feel you have the right to come on here**ging people off.
The next time you come on here spouting I'll start publishing some of the goods on you.
You are the lowest form going and so typical of so many form where you started your career
Report insideinfo November 26, 2009 9:19 AM GMT
OMG is crouchingtiger1 Ian Marmion??? If it is what a God damn hypoctite he is.Does he still work for VC,the firm who need Betfair to tell them what prices they should be going horses.You couldnt make it up!
Report crouchingtiger1 November 26, 2009 11:30 AM GMT
Yep Dennny - you're right, I apologise, I just wish I was as successful as you - the old green eyed monster is all it is...i won't say anything again
Report Kerrygold November 26, 2009 12:04 PM GMT
insideinfo 26 Nov 10:19
OMG is crouchingtiger1 Ian Marmion??? If it is what a God damn hypoctite he is

So what if it is him ! rather read what he has to say rather than some clown talking about how to set up cheltenham nights etc - so try not run these guys away from here , always interested to see what the guy has to say ....
Report insideinfo November 26, 2009 12:34 PM GMT
Catch yourself on kerrygold,he has a cheek coming on here lecturing others about using Betfair when his firm wouldnt know weather a horse should be 10/1 or 10/1 on without them.
Report Kerrygold November 26, 2009 12:51 PM GMT
inside - i know were you are coming from - but i think he was just trying to be a company man at the time - things change - peoples motivations change - I doubt he still feels the same about some of the stuff he said on behalf of v c i

we all make mistakes
Report pots November 26, 2009 2:52 PM GMT
i can never understand why bookamkers hedge into betfair. If you;re laying at what you percieve to be a price in your favour (under the betfair price could be one measure), then in the long run you will make your expected margin. if you just hedge it back onto betfair you eliminate bad and goods runs, but you end up in the same place but you have to pay commission. if I was able to lay a guy 10/11 heads 10/11 tails in a fair coin toss, I wouldn;t be running off to hedge it at evens minus commission. why not just let results run their course.
Report soapp November 26, 2009 5:05 PM GMT
A few points.

1) Davy Hyland sometimes goes higher than betfair. However he doesn't entertain any arbers.

2) All the bookies have electric points at their pitch for the laptops. They are run by an x bookie. And they aren't linked to betfair. Someone else.
Report CALLING CARD November 26, 2009 7:58 PM GMT
vc get their morning prices from shane reville not betfair .
most on course layers are just ** drones.
soapp d hyland lays the two biggest arbers in the ring namely aidan the dogman and david mudrash
why are people so concerned with the on course layers ? just compile your own prices and pick off the value.maybe all the contributors are just like the aforementioned ian marmiom and cant judge an apple from a pear.
Report CALLING CARD November 26, 2009 7:58 PM GMT
purple drones
Report redbait November 26, 2009 8:02 PM GMT
Thanks for that contribution, Shane.
Report Win only - Sp only November 26, 2009 8:12 PM GMT
this is the irish forum "guess who" fred imho
Report CALLING CARD November 26, 2009 8:15 PM GMT
i aint shane my man
Report thegalwayman November 26, 2009 10:44 PM GMT
VC might as well be getting their morning prices from Ronald McDonald for all the faith they place in them.
Report spurs to buy big November 26, 2009 11:18 PM GMT
shane knows his onions from what i hear

i also have heard
most books who use exchanges are laying one of the first 3 in market to balance their books ....not laying off mug bets
cant see exchange boycott having real impact
Report thegalwayman November 27, 2009 7:47 AM GMT
He might well do. And he he might know his mushrooms, peppers and carrots aswell. He may in fact know everything there is to know about the ingredients for spicy Mexican fajitas. However, given VC's price tracking software, they clearly have no faith in their Irish odds man. I don't see them pricing Irish racing up before Powers or taking any sort of a view when their prices come in either.
Report spurs to buy big November 27, 2009 8:07 AM GMT
no idea about his odds just making the point that he does indeed know his Allium cepa
Report irishlad November 27, 2009 9:45 AM GMT
Thanks for that Liam.
Report DRIVEON November 27, 2009 4:04 PM GMT
NOT a rasher in ring today bookies walking around banging into to each other
Report redbait November 27, 2009 4:28 PM GMT
Never mind a rasher, was there any spicy Mexican fajitas doing the rounds?
Report DEBOOKIEBOY. November 27, 2009 5:34 PM GMT
Scotsirish clearly doesnt like Thurles has ran below par there three times now................
Report soapp November 27, 2009 6:19 PM GMT
CC you are right on here. I think VC etc can do what they like. We have BF to trade but most on here lay S F all to decent money at stand out odds. Yet they cry when VC won't take their money.

As it was VC were stand out a few times today. I took the 9/10 on Luska Lad with them. Also they went 6/4 Rhyl Accord longest odds. Unfortunately I followed them and laid a few bob at that price. Nice price for those takers and he dots up at 4/5 :(
Report crouchingtiger1 November 27, 2009 9:12 PM GMT
CALLING CARD 26 Nov 20:58
just compile your own prices and pick off the value.maybe all the contributors are just like the aforementioned ian marmiom and cant judge an apple from a pear

bit harsh me thinks!!!! I'd have at least thought u'd spell my name right, happy to have an account with you at ur prices CC and u can have all my apples and pears.....i'll return the compliment as well
Report limestone lad November 27, 2009 9:50 PM GMT
Hey crouchingtiger1 or Ian any chance of reopening my account please?
Report sinndar001 November 27, 2009 9:55 PM GMT
christ limestone you must have had 50 e/w on a 16/1 shot that went off 4's and finished 2nd.
Report chopper636 November 27, 2009 9:57 PM GMT
Do all the bookies turn up anymore. I noticed that a few them dont even employ staff anymore. So things must not be going good in Ring. It appears as if its a sinking ship
Report CALLING CARD November 27, 2009 11:21 PM GMT
crouchingtiger1 sorry for spelling
u misunderstood my post
my point was that most punters need a tissue from betfair before deciding value
i punt not lay
Report DEBOOKIEBOY. December 3, 2009 12:04 AM GMT
Any difference in the ring at Fairyhouse on Wednesday?
Report zilzal1 December 3, 2009 12:38 PM GMT
Thought this was another thread about the Church
Report Doyler1987 December 3, 2009 1:04 PM GMT
All still followed machine yesterday, bar Davy in the 6th took a stand on the fav, rest of them were in line with Betfair all day.
Report xis a ruof December 5, 2009 6:30 PM GMT
What were the over rounds like today in Navan?
Report jasonk178. December 5, 2009 7:39 PM GMT
race1 - 180%!!
race2 - 112
race3 - 147
race4 - 120
race5 - 130
race6 - 135
race7 - 136
Report closure December 5, 2009 7:57 PM GMT
Any wise words from the tiger (crouching that is)
Report observerirl December 5, 2009 9:40 PM GMT
When the last fav was 5/4 with top pitch on the rails he was 15/8 on here!!
Report soapp December 7, 2009 5:38 PM GMT
All laptops were switched on at the week-end.
Report Hemingway December 7, 2009 9:36 PM GMT
Haven't heard anything about the Irish ring boycotting Betfair or Purple.

In reality though, I would say the Irish ring is a relatively modest part of Betfair's Irish business; and a drop in the ocean of their total revenues.

The genie is out of the bottle along time now, imo.
Report Kelly December 8, 2009 10:10 AM GMT
The overrounds posted by Jasonk tell it all .

In the "old days " ie pre-Betfair , the punters had virtually no options regarding prices . They have now courtesy of 2 exchanges , and it would be interesting to know how many connections of the ( smaller) stables use them to advantage . And good luck to them , owning and paying for training of a horse belongs in the "luxury" category , particularly in the post Celtic Tiger era ( should that have a small T given the fall from grace ? ) .

Most of the people ( including the bookies ) in Irish racing circles are pragmatic , and adjustments to deal with the new economic circumstances will happen quietly . Everyone ( and that includes punters ) is looking at ways of cutting down expenditure , fripperies , unnecessary expense . Value is the only way to survive crises . Just hope there is enough momentum in the train to emerge out of the tunnel relatively unscathed .
Report DRIVEON December 8, 2009 10:18 AM GMT
ALL books in line with betfair ban have orange stickers on boards
Report robo December 8, 2009 10:25 AM GMT
does any one really believe that the ring is not heging on the bet fair
Report DRIVEON December 8, 2009 4:07 PM GMT
there doin they re best to keep money in ring ,if the books buy into it it ill work if there holding more money they ill start to believe,there holding so little now at race meetings the way they look at it any thing is worth a go
Report jimeen December 8, 2009 4:18 PM GMT
Driveon- Stop will ya please,you really dont know anything about what you are talking about.Im not going to elaborate,but im not sure you realise what kind of state most layers are in at the moment in the ring.And a bit of news for them,and that is its going to get even worse,but sadly they dont seem to recognise that fact.
Report soapp December 8, 2009 5:16 PM GMT
I was only remarking at Navan last Saturday (22 bookies) how few compared to a good few years ago ( nearly 80 so I was told)

God be the days, when Des Fox, Terry Rogers, old Sean Graham. Paddy and Davy Meehan were the king pins of the ring. Malachy Skelly and even J P Mcmanus stood in the ring too.

Chronicle seem to have gone awol a lot these days. Also I haven't noticed David Power as regular too.

As long as Davy Hyland is in the ring, there will always be some atmosphere.

Michael Naghten, Luke McMahon, and John Dineen three of the better layers of recent times have packed it in.
Report spurs to buy big December 8, 2009 5:22 PM GMT
this can only benefit the off track books and betfair
less value for on track punters will push them towards the machine
and shorter SPs on fancied horses will greatly please the big chains
Report jimeen December 8, 2009 6:39 PM GMT
Spurs to buy big -The way you describe the situation is spot on,its propably a perfect assesment of the situation,but sadly the bookies that remain cant see or at least wont admit to whats going on.Rising expenses coupled with rapidly diminishing turnover have meant most ventures to race meetings by an on course bookie completely unviable.Bar Galway and possibly Listowel,making a book was a joke this year,with Derby Day at the Curragh being the biggest dissapointment of all.
Report DRIVEON December 8, 2009 7:49 PM GMT
JIMEEN i do know what i am talking about ,just letting you know the story about orange stickers,kinda sick of ye lads going on and on about d hyland his not all that. far better men in the ring ,the likes of jim fanning ,skellys,brian campbell,mullvanneys,o neills all lay you what they can are very fair and always pay
Report huddys December 8, 2009 7:55 PM GMT
but hyland will really lay one big time if he doesnt fancy it
Report closure December 8, 2009 8:17 PM GMT
It will be interesting to see if there is any money about at Christmas at Leopardstown. Lexus day is one of the best betting days of the year.
My own view is that the crowd will hold up well so if the bookmakers play the game then turnover could be OK.
Driveon just to tell you that some of the people you are preaching to are (or at least were) on course bookmakers themselves so you would be as well of listening to them.

A story I heard recently about Derby day. An oncourse bookmaker who works down the line was so disgusted with business on the day that he walked up to the rails before the Derby as he had heard of the terrific business there and had always been too busy before himself other years to see it. I can attest myself that in days gone by the Rails on Derby Day was the busiest ring in the Country.
He was standing behind the biggest layer on the rails and saw him lay a 1200/100 a horse win only. He then watched in disbelief as the same bookmaker had €60 of it back on the machine at 14. That will tell you how much he was holding in the race.
Report DRIVEON December 8, 2009 8:40 PM GMT
CLOSURE theres nothing i dont know about the bookmaking side of it as i have a relation who is one and i work wit them regularly ,i ve seen the derby days in the curragh wit 25 runner handicaps and holding 170 on it and the jolly costing 700 and not a bet in the place it makes laugh to listen to ye on about betting holding up in leo at xmas there was nt a there bet last yr not to say this year even the old reliables like thurles and kilbeggan where they always got a few quid are fcuked ,i really feel sad for the whole game ,but some of the people on here seem to thrive on bookmakers going bad or going bust ,it wont make ye any richer or happier ,it just make going racing very dull
Report jimeen December 8, 2009 8:51 PM GMT
Basically what has happened in English racecourses has been replicated over here,it usually took 3 to 4 years for it to materialise but like clockwork it did eventually happen.I'l give people a list of some of the things that i am referring to.
1.Lights Boards
3.Printed tickets
4.Exchanges getting a foothold and ultimately taking over.
5.Pitches deceasing sharply in value with most becoming worthless
6.Midweek meetings becoming unprofitable and ultimately unviable
7.Punters on busy days largely consisting of messers with either a fiver in their hand or a pint of lager.
8.Collapse in general turnover
9.Increase in the number of bookmakers raising the white flag.
10.Almost every single regular big player realising that they had no business trying to bet at a racecourse.
Report tocky junior December 8, 2009 9:48 PM GMT
huddys..ya he ll lay ya no bother!! Join the rest of them in the black book if it wins. Clueless you are.Just cos a lad
Report Catch Me ifyoucan December 8, 2009 10:12 PM GMT

11. Huge big BETFAIR tv screens around the parade ring !
Report Mordin. December 8, 2009 10:24 PM GMT
I went racing fairly regularly 5-6 years ago. I dont go now as I prefer to be able to back and then lay my selection In-Play if things arent going to plan. For me betting with on course bookmakers is out-dated and of no interest to me.
Report Kelly December 9, 2009 12:21 AM GMT
Unfortunately for the future of the racing game in these islands , tracks without bookies present and active would be as dull as ditchwater . The demise of the bookies would rob the tracks of a lot of interest , although if there were no bookies and just "Betfair/exchange " betting facilities the on track punters might well get better value than at present . After all Betfair SP beats bookies SP in most races , even allowing for commission .

The question of the returned odds for each horse is a major element involved in future developments . At the moment SP returned is designed to suit the offices , those on track basically dont care per se about SP , the only thing relevant to them is what is entered at what odds in their betting ledger .

SP's now need to reflect the overall betting on a race , involving on course , offices , and the exchanges . Trick is accomodating each element fairly , everyone needs to be able to get a return for effort , otherwise there is no point in being involved . But no single element of the quoted "triumvirate " can get way with rip- off .
Report spurs to buy big December 9, 2009 12:41 AM GMT
the best days craic i had on a racecourse lately was arlington 28 c constant sunny some time in june 4 $ admission and cant say i missed the bukes....what can i say... its the truth
Report galway59 December 9, 2009 9:17 AM GMT
this jimeen guy seems to know what his talking about
Report Kelly December 9, 2009 9:25 AM GMT
Spurs , the admission costs are much higher locally than abroad generally . I went to a meeting in Australia , admission about 2 euros which included a comprehensive racecard which covered every race in Australia that day including the meeting I was at . There were bookies there as well as the TAB , but the bookies margins were pretty generous , easy as the TAB is not noted for being competitive .

Also visited Sha Tin in Hong Kong , no idea on admission costs , but I was told it was not excessive . Tote deductions there are quite a lot , monopoly conditions .

Facilities are excellent in most race tracks abroad , but I would miss the cut and thrust betting wise which until the last 10 years or so was a big feature of the Irish racing scene . Unfortunately that element has largely disappeared , it certainly has in UK where every bookie has exactly the same price and no-one steps out of line , except when they are returning the SP's .
Report winston December 9, 2009 9:51 AM GMT
While Betfair is a primary reason that the on-course game is dead (note- dead not dying,) there are many secondary reasons also. The off-course bookmakers in Ireland are too competitive for the middle of the road (50-500) punter to contemplate going racing. Although in probability it only happens 4-5 times a year,double-result is a boon. Getting money back periodically on losers,fallers, horses finishing 2nd to fav etc gradually weakens the resolve of punters getting into their cars to arrive at an overpriced museum.Drink-driving laws an added straw for the camels back plus the 'joy' of a dining experience unique to racecourses. There are still upsides to going racing but fresh air, the thoroughbred in the flesh and watching 'baldy' and 'lucky' eating an amount of food that would keep a small country going,aren't that difficult to outweigh!
Report galway59 December 9, 2009 9:59 AM GMT
it would take a fair bit of food to keep you going winston
Report donegal publican December 9, 2009 10:18 AM GMT
hey cooldine,i'd say you'd eat more food than baldy,lucky and winston put together...
Report galway59 December 9, 2009 10:26 AM GMT
not hope donegal i treat my body like the temple that it is
Report chas1234 December 9, 2009 12:27 PM GMT
in all fairness Cooldine, the only temple ive ever seen you worship in is McDonalds in Leixslip.
Report galway59 December 9, 2009 2:47 PM GMT
wheres leixlip
Report closure December 9, 2009 9:48 PM GMT
How about this for a scenario.
No on course bookmakers.
As an earlier poster said Betfair and other Exchanges big screens everywhere.
The nanny as before.

Consoles everywhere as well as tables, plugs etc and all the things necessary to punt online.

A great day could still be had at the races by all, the channce to meet friends, go to parade ring, dine, maybe a jar during or after.

Nothing at all wrong with that in my view.

I stopped going racing the day I realised I was naked when the battery ran out on my laptop. I'd be back tomorrow if tracks were made computer and technologically friendly.

The Greyhound board will see it first just as they saw the value in entertainment in terms of meals etc for customers.
Report Catch Me ifyoucan December 10, 2009 12:47 PM GMT
Top Man in Bord na Gone for a while now............ 'me fein'ers gone !

Changes are already there to be seen !

Already all there in Dundalk !!!
......Casino WILL be the next addition there too ;)
Report observerirl December 12, 2009 7:27 PM GMT
Have my doubts about the ring being dead though it has been dieing for some time now. The betting industry will have to endure a hike in betting tax in the near future. This hike will probably impact the on-line, exchange business. Any tax imposition will no doubt be passed on to the punter while I'd guess on-course betting will escape any additional tax due to its current state. Exchanges and on line betting will become less attractive and profitable due to increased costs for serious punters and they may return to the ring where business pays cash and no audit trail exists. Time reveals all!
Report keen leader January 19, 2017 2:34 AM GMT
I realise this forum has been akin to a human on a life support machine for some time. In an attempt to give it some pulse I think resuscitating this old thread in the hope that it may stir some debate.

The subject matter, the betting ring in Ireland and the general betting market in the country.

The thread discussed the state of play 7 years ago and on page 2 Jimeen's bullet points certainly played out.

Save for the odd festival, bookmaking is now a waste of time on track, there is hardly one decent regular punter  left on track midweek and most pitches are worthless.

Matters have become even more dire since the inception of the dreaded slaves, creating a false impression of some of choice.

Last week nestled amongst the HRI figures was the worrying loss of turnover in the ring.
I know many will have little sympathy for some in the bookmaking ranks, that said I would have plenty of time for many, who are in reality free marketeers. On the high street, the 3 major chains over a period between 2000-2010 managed to undercut the independents with specials, and now most indies are gone and with the big players dominating, specials are at a minimum. Punters lost long term due to the current lack of competition and it may only get worse. Could a similar scenario be developing in the ring?.

Turnover is now so poor at points that the tax men are no longer required with that levy ditched....are we heading that way with for example mid week track meetings?

Contributors on this thread back in 2009 included some very clued in ring masters, some of whom may no longer drop into the forum. Perhaps a few may cast an opinion on where we are now 7 odd years later and what if any the future holds.

It is difficult to pinpoint an individual item which is responsible for the slow death of the betting ring, and therefore trying to bring it back to life outside the odd festival or big day is no easy task. A healthy betting rings was once one of the charms of attending a fixture.

The question to books/former books such as  Jimeen and friends? Is the dye cast and matters are going to continue to deteriorate to the stage that we may nationally get a Dundalk style ring, with a few arbers, a handful of slave operations and then PP and Lads reps dominating the sp for their high street concerns. Or is there a path that can be taken to revive the ring?

My major fear long term, is that the younger punters have been nurtured by the high street chains on sports betting and diverted away from horse racing, the effect in the long run is that with natural human depreciation, the older horse racing stock will not be replaced, and the days of plenty of monkey and grand punters playing on track may be finished.

Can the Irish betting ring be saved?????
Report wildmanfromborneo January 19, 2017 7:03 AM GMT
There are similarities between this thread and the Irish betting ring.

Seven years on and some changes in posters and bookies.

How many that stood in Thurles seven years ago will be standing today.
Mind you the same could apply to puntrs
Report wildmanfromborneo January 19, 2017 7:04 AM GMT
I doubt if Joe Donnelly was standing seven years ago but his horse will win today.
Report workrider January 19, 2017 9:46 AM GMT
Keen Leader,it can be hard to get a bet on at the track, my bets are usually 200 max 300 I might go 400 in an exceptional case , yet at a meeting in Naas last year I was refused a 100e bet by a bookie, the same one who will be telling the press about the decline in betting. I find myself punting with a smaller circle of bookies, usually Bads reps, Mulvanny,Finigan,Power. Talking about 7yrs ago, I had a 300e bet with a bookie @ Punchestown Festival and had too wait for over a hour to get paid , so it was happening even then , said bookie is no longer standing I might add.
Report neill d January 19, 2017 10:16 AM GMT
The effort and the means the Racing fraternity, (trainers, jocks, owners) would have to go to entice younger sports punters to take an interest in the game is the antithesis of their MO.

The second in the Melbourne Cup is running at the weekend in Ireland's richest handicap hurdle. That should be attracting mainstream sporting media attention, instead nobody is sure whether it is just a sighter for the County Hurdle.

It isn't in the interests of people within the sport to be forthcoming with information to promote racing. I would say that is due to the handicap system, but you also see the fog over where horses like Annie power will run.

In short, racing is eating itself and doesn't deserve any more than it gets as it makes no effort to promote itself.

I remember someone talking about Ryan Moore and his manner, that it doesn't matter, he's a great jockey. It might not matter for Moore, but think of the extra revenue that would come into the sport if people like him made more of an effort; and he should be thinking about the jock sitting down from him in the weighing room on a Monday night in Windsor.

The above people are completely delusional, they're a lefty led coalition government from being put on their asses.
Report observerirl January 19, 2017 2:40 PM GMT
The evolution of the betting landscape and giant leaps in technology have brought about the death of the irish/english ring. Its painful for those bookmakers who invested in pitches who didnt get out in time and sad for punters as the buzz of going racing and betting in a vibrant lively ring was addictive. Theres a million ways to bet now without even getting outta bed and you can watch all the action live on big screen in your home. Nothing stays the same in any walk of life and the betting ring is the primary casualty of the multitude of options available to punters now.
Report RoyalAcademy January 19, 2017 3:19 PM GMT
I don't think there is anyone born from, say, 1980 that recalls what are referred to of the halcyon days in the ring when Sean Graham knew you by nickname, Terry Rogers was as unpleasant as he could possibly be and if a bookie ever said "thank you" it was a shock to the system. The lines to be paid waited patiently and got a sour puss as they arrived at the satchel. As a very young punter I was always struck by them asking "how much?" and assumed if you somehow made a mistake with the amount, that's all you'd be paid.

One of the features in these years was the "move" when clerks, punters and runners all went scurrying in a hundred directions, the prices were wiped and we now knew that O'Grady's in the bumper or maiden hurdle was "off".

Technology changed all that and there's no way back. It will make the tracks soulless - most already are - and you would question your sanity trying to have a deuce on anything if you had missed a morning price or you knew there was a greater price available 15 seconds away on Betfair. It simply makes no sense to bet in the ring any longer. It would take impossible legislation to change the landscape and yet the Tote is absolutely no alternative on course. I only go racing now in company, with a nominated driver and any punting is done beforehand and everything is recorded for another day.

There will be a handful of on-course market-makers that can easily manipulate SP unless wholesale change occurs with off-course operations. The irony is that most tracks don't really care that there is no betting because they snaffle all the TV rights to the detriment of the game and it makes them not having to worry and therefore without an innovative thought in their body. Bookmakers probably don't care with only a reputed 25% (probably more?) of all gambling associated with racing and yet Irish Racing derives 100% of the benefit. Not hard to see the illogicalities in all of this.

What fascinates me today is: how do gambling yards, stables or individuals get their money on as its hardly on-course? Is it one or two private behemoths (whether if Martinstown or Basel) taking on the established big four?
Report monarch January 19, 2017 3:30 PM GMT
No doubt technology changed the landscape of the ring. Remember clerking for a man at tramore festival years ago. Electronic boards were in by this stage. Bookie about 2 or 3 up the line was showing off his new bit of technology. An early internet dongle. Bragging away to all that were in earshot that he had a direct connection to exchange. Remember saying to my boss something along the lines of "thats an unfair advantage, we should all have 1 of those". His, and others, reply was "never mind sure that won't catch on !!"
Report wildmanfromborneo January 19, 2017 7:38 PM GMT
What is a slave in the context of the ring ?

A decent crowd basked in the sun today in Thurles,ring seemed fairly vibrant.
I enjoy betting,I particularly enjoy betting in cash when I go racing I don't use the exchanges,I'm very much in the minority.
Some of the punters seem permanently betting on their phones,they missed a trick or two today as the prices were competitive.
Battleford was trading at 2.04 and was freely 5/4 in the ring,could be significant that he was beat.

The age profile of racegoers for midweek meetings like this one was always high.
Young people are working or rearing families.

Some posters here call racing soulless when its they that are soulless.
If you bet like a robot crippled by rules you will never have the joy of getting " out " on a day when you were losing heavily,the joy of playing up your winnings.
Report Major Rumpus January 19, 2017 8:45 PM GMT
A slave is a bookmaker who has no control of prices. You see a number of bookmakers with 2 or more pitches. One terminal controls the money taken by all outlets & prices at all outlets.
Report wildmanfromborneo January 19, 2017 9:28 PM GMT
Thanks Major,I'm still not quite following it

I have noticed this new phenomenon of bookmakers having more than one stall,one particular bookmaker had three stalls all manned by women.
How can you tell which one is the slave ?
What is the advantage of the slave ?
Why would Keen Leader state " even more dire since the advent of the dreaded slaves " ?
Report oufies pal January 19, 2017 9:47 PM GMT
Does the Melbourne Cup second not need a huge hike up the scale to get into County? Not too many other opportunities to get job done before mid March. Sunday surely the day? Or am I missing something?
Report oufies pal January 19, 2017 9:57 PM GMT
Phil Smith will probably rate him a stone higher than our fellow anyway.ExcitedDevil m
Report neill d January 19, 2017 10:03 PM GMT
Apologies, you're correct oufies, I hadn't really looked at the race and thought he was rated higher than 125. He'd need to be mid-to high 130s wouldn't he?

If he ran no sort of race on Saturday, I presume Smith doesn't have it in his gift to stick 10lbs on him if he maintains the County entry, thus getting him a run.

You're right, he has every incentive to be off at the weekend, even aside from the huge prize fund.

Always thought he'd be a Galway Hurdle horse were they to go down this route.
Report oufies pal January 19, 2017 10:10 PM GMT
Could be stones better than anything he has shown before Neil. Jumped really well at Galway last year. A J Martin a bit of a wizard at controlling handicap marks.Galway hurdle after the County and probably still look well treated?
Report neill d January 19, 2017 10:13 PM GMT
Yeah, absolutely, the way those lads can unwind it.
Report cloone river January 19, 2017 10:40 PM GMT
He should be off alright when you think of the prize money and the bonus if he goes on and wins the coral cup.Galway is Ireland's richest handicap hurdle neill d.Hard enough to see him getting beat off 125 as long as the trip to membourne didnt leave its mark.
Report jimeen January 21, 2017 10:07 PM GMT
Funny thread this, not many of the contributors bother any more which is a pity. Wasn't aware it had been resurrected until a friend of mine mentioned it earlier today so i'm going to give my tuppence worth on the betting ring in Ireland today.
Sadly  quite a few factors have hit it really hard and made the current ring unrecognisable from what it used be. Its only a decade ago when the betting ring was at its most vibrant, and the collapse was truly remarkable in relation to both the magnitude and the speed of it. You could say almost overnight  really and it was difficult for anyone to forsee it.
The recession hit, the betfair took over, drink driving laws became stricter, penalty points for speeding, rising costs of fuel and racecourse admission, off course giving concessions that weren't available on course. These are some of the factors, and i am possibly missing some others which killed off attendances at Irish race meetings which ultimately killed off on course bookmaking.
The bookies didnt help themselves maybe, but neither did the people that were running the sport. Then again this business was like many others which  got outdated, just like pubs maybe. Who could have said that pubs and rural Ireland in particular would be in the state its in now, who could have predicted half the shops in some country towns being boarded up, or factories where people looked to have jobs for life , simply going to the wall.
As regards the on course game ever being any use again, realistically it's impossible to imagine it. Surely its more likely that we will have race meetings with no bookies as opposed to a race meeting with 10's of them actually doing good business.
I had to smile when someone earlier on this thread remarked that the bookies were all nice guys when  they were  betting to good margins and making the  game pay. In other words they weren't such nice people when things weren't going swimmingly, and i could relate to that from my experiences on both sides of the fence. Personally the last 18 months i worked on course were absolute torture, both mentally and financially, and like many others i had to think long and hard about my future. The year i packed it in, i lost at every meeting i attended from early in July to the first Sunday in October. It was proof positive though that it wasn't just a bad run, and that my style of bookmaking had become completely unviable and it was now time to retire while i still could.
Going racing now is no longer a pleasure and the absence of a vibrant betting ring is a huge factor , but the powers that be dont help either.
Some of the decisions made are staggering, and just this month alone the absence of racing on consecutive Thursdays, the blank Bank Holiday, although today the clash of Navan with Haydock capped the lot. These kind of decisions do nobody any favours and just sour what is already a dwindling audience even further.
Report workrider January 21, 2017 11:15 PM GMT
Navan and Haydock clashing,whos fault was that may I ask.If things had gone to plan and all the ENGLISH meetings had taken place today there would have been 5 mins between 3 of them.So according too you it was Navans fault, although HAYDOCK put THEIR racing back. How it effected betting on course in Ireland is baffling,maybe you'd care to explain .
Report pa lapsy January 21, 2017 11:37 PM GMT
It was very poor whoevers "fault" it was WR, aw dross left alone and the two decent nh meetings clashing to the second, it was probably bha's fault as such,Ireland very rarely move off times and as it is outside their juristiction it is up to bha to work around that,they made a hames of it.

Different times from the original post,people are more consumer savvy and want as much bang for their buck and that filters through to betting as well,people won''t pay more for an identical product and hard to blame them.

Surprised to see Bar One opening up new offices in Cork(Parnell Place and Evergreen Rd.) historically places where offices have done well but surely no stopping the internet.
Report TellTheKing January 21, 2017 11:47 PM GMT
The agreed plan for the three daytime meetings after abandonments was ten minute intervals. The Navan stewards so fit to ignore this request. Jimeen wasn’t specifically referencing the concourse crowd being soured I’d imagine, rather the general betting public (on and off course). I’d totally agree as it was unnecessary and left a sour taste for NH fans.
Report workrider January 21, 2017 11:57 PM GMT
TTK, surely it was inevitable that there would have been clashes in UK if all todays meetings had gone ahead.So how Navan have copped any blame is beyond me.
Report TellTheKing January 22, 2017 12:02 AM GMT
Workrider clashing on a busy Saturday is inevitable. Clashing when there’s only three meetings on a Saturday (the sports best shop window day of the week) is unnecessary, counter productive & beyond belief. There was an agreement between the bodies to avoid clashes and the Navan stewards ignored the request. It should be borne in mind that UK tracks regularly wait for Irish races to finish. I think you are missing the point here to be honest.
Report kavvie January 22, 2017 12:02 AM GMT
bar one are opening all over the place pa..just to share my own experience recently.i attend a good few meetings over the year but mostly festivals and ballinrobe regularly where the ring is usually vibrant.i attended the recent cork saturday meeting and it really brought it home to me how bad it has got in general for "regular" meetings.and how it really is so much easier and better value to stay at home and either play online(antisocial i know) or go to your local bookie shop.  we had 2 meals in the upstairs place and really in all my life id say i never got worse it was just awful. the pp office in cork dont do bpg or the normal shop on away races.why is that i wonder? is it a pp thing beacause you got no choice?i seen lots betting on their fones.i backed a winner in england at 5/2 that spd at 3s  so more reason to stay away.finally i reckoned id back a horse of harringtons in the beginners was 7/2 generally 4s in places.i went up with 150 for a 75 ew bet at 4s..the lady(one of the above mentioned slaves i guess)  refused me and offered me a pony ew.i refused with finished this what its gone to?  a day at the races used to be a very pleasurable  experience..this wasnt.
Report workrider January 22, 2017 12:07 AM GMT
TTK, The BHA are too blame imo,there has been a cry across the water about two many meetings on Sat,the BHA don't seem to care,we are talking about ON COURSE betting and its effect on the ring, not xc racing.
Report roadrunner46 January 22, 2017 12:57 AM GMT
i will take the AW dross over national hunt races any day of the week, unless you are just betting for the entertainment factor, then i suppose
you get lot more for your money watching them jump the fences magnificently. and thats why i can understand people who enjoy the jumps racing and
the great horses that reach the top of the pecking order, dont know why people always seem to be knocking the AW racing. it far outranks national
hunt racing as a betting medium. must take forever watching replays of jumps races.
Report jimeen January 22, 2017 8:42 AM GMT
Workrider, it may be baffling to you how Haydock clashing with Navan could interfere with turnover in the betting ring , but certainly not to me. The on course market is led by exchanges as most people are aware so quite clearly the liquidity is going to be lighter when an Irish race clashes with a major English one. Also on course punters yesterday, had to make a decision whether they wanted to bet on either Navan or Haydock as they wouldnt have been able to watch both in comfort. Should they choose the Haydock option, then quite clearly the on course ring would suffer.
Tell the king was correct when he said you were missing the point, and you are completely in this instance. There was simply no need for a  clash yesterday and its the fault of Horse Racing Ireland, not Navan racecourse and not the Navan stewards either. These kind of decisions should be made by higher powers and whether the stewards wouldnt comply or not should be irrelevant.
It wasnt the Navan stewards who decided to have no racing on two consecutive Thursdays in January  in the height of the Ntional hunt season even though horses are being balloted out in many races, and it wasnt the Navan stewards who decided to have no racing on a Bank Holiday.
Could anyone ever rememeber a Bank holiday in Ireland that had no scheduled horse racing fixture. That was the decision that completely defied any kind of logic and just showed what a laughing stock the HRI actually are.
Report wildmanfromborneo January 22, 2017 10:13 AM GMT
I queried why there was no racing on the Bank holiday and was told it was because no racecourse wanted it.
Has to be the first time there was no racing in Ireland on a bank holiday.

I'm back to this slave business,if Kavvie tried to have a bet with a slave how did the slave have the authority to turn down the bet and then offer the miserable bet she did.
Report workrider January 22, 2017 11:13 AM GMT
Jimeen,not trying to take you to task on this,I can see were you're coming from to a certain extent,all I'm saying is the effect on the ring would have been minimum, how many bet on UK racing in the ring ,off the top of my head I'd say 5 at most. About 13yrs ago I had a bet with a ring bookie on UK racing,I backed a horse @ 5/1 one minute before the off,I went inside too watch the race and too my horror saw that the horse I'd backed outside with the caring bookie, had drifted from 5s out too 9/1 yet he failed to show this on his board, he was betting from a sheet I might add this was the days before the electronic boards,when I asked him how come he hadn't changed the odds,  he looked me right in the eye and said, I NEVER noticed!.The best lesson I ever had on course,never punted with the robber again. BHA had plenty of time to adjust their times after losing several meetings, yet wanted the HRI to get them out of a hole instead of looking after their own business.
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