That looked like make a stand

Those running in the Champion Hurdle would be nearer 25/1. however, this year's renewal is extremely weak unless a resurrection from Constitution Hill.

Very poor quality race on bad ground but after that he has to go to a mark of 152 in my opinion, lots of options, County hurdle or Liverpool and Nicholls always states that the festival is not the be all and end all, however why not put him in as the ground will at least be good to soft and more likely soft on the first day and as many have stated its a real poor looking Champion.

Last time I saw a hurdle winner win so easy was when Atours made its hurdle debut for Elsworth in 1994.

You could collect your winnings on the home turn on Tutti Quanti.

Great performance but I wouldn’t be getting carried away. Certainly worth his place in the Champion Hurdle but:
This William Hill hurdle isn’t the race it used to be.
I’d want to see heavy ground at Cheltenham. I remember Dato Star used to thrash the opposition in heavy ground trials, but in turn was thrashed on better ground at the festival.

In his favour I think the race this year is rubbish and Tutti Quanti is definitely a slick hurdler though is inclined to flatten at least one.

Can he raise his game to beat Golden Ace?  Then there are the other three who head the betting.  Tall ask for me.  I would wait until next season.

Nicholls said after the race the great thing about supplementing is that you can leave it until six days beforehand so you can assess likely ground conditions.

Dato star did beat French holly at Newcastle on good to soft but yes most of his best form was on softer

Tutti Quanti hurdles really fast but being honest todays race was very poor renewal but Tutti Quanti only needs improve a little bit more to run in the champion, hopefully the handicapper wont put him up more than 12lbs so he can win the county hurdle given his ground.

Also won a fighting fifth on good beating

…Wahiba Sands. Nice that RP maintain the form records of old favourites. In the 1998 Haydock trial Dato beat the previous year’s champion hurdler by 20 lengths pulling a train. I was praying for rain at Cheltenham and in fact it rained all the way down from Nottinghamshire, even in Cheltenham town centre, but somehow it missed the track. Istabraq was beatable on heavy, even then it took a massive effort to beat him, but he reigned supreme on everything else.

this ground throws up random results and improbable winning distances.throw the form into the bin and forget about it.

I was very surprised to see the forum getting so carried away with an adverse ground result.

If it turns up wont be 25s on the day , NRNB  Certainly helps

Not sure I can agree with Nicholls when he says you can gauge the going at Cheltenham six days before the event.
At the 2022 festival it hammered down all day on the Wednesday.  The Bumper was run on a water logged surface.
The following day the ground was good!!

What you say is fair.  I think he meant you would have more chance of gauging the going then.

My first thought was the County Hurdle but after listening to Paul he seemed to feel that if it was likely to be soft it would be the CH, if not soft then skip the meeting altogether. Aintree Hurdle perhaps? He should stay 2.5 miles there. Plenty of time for them to think it through and yesterday might have taken a lot out of the horse.

My first thought was the County Hurdle but after listening to Paul he seemed to feel that if it was likely to be soft it would be the CH, if not soft then skip the meeting altogether. Aintree Hurdle perhaps? He should stay 2.5 miles there. Plenty of time for them to think it through and yesterday might have taken a lot out of the horse.

Supplementary by 7th March so only a 3 day window

Good morning Geoff Nichols has just been on luck on Sunday he seems to think it’s 6 days off course that doesn’t mean he’s right.

Time was 4 secs slower than the novice in the first race

Has his rating been updated yet?

Paul Nicholls said 6 days and he had probably just looked it up. Makes sense as entries would have to be in before the 5 day decs.

Paul Nicholls is my favourite NH trainer and I wish the horse well if going for CH. This was the worst renewal of the Schweppes race that I can recall and that's going back to the great days of HR Price (Capt.) Only my opinion of course.

The rating will be interesting. If you assume that the second horse ran to its OR of 132 then Tutti would be rated 156 but the ground would exaggerate that. All of the other runners would be 30lb below their rating on that basis! Either none of the runners could handle the ground or we have to assume that it was exceptional. The time is of course of interest but the time from the turn in compared to Sober Glory would be interesting. I suspect that Harry Cobden slowed it down a lot and stacked them up before kicking off the bend. I would not be surprised if Sober Glory ran to 150 plus as well.

Talking about the great days of the 'SDchweppes' and times...

On Saturday they were saying on ATR before the race that Tutti Quanti wouyld be the first horse to win the race with top weight since Persian War in 1968, and would break his weight carrying record for a winner. Well, he did break his weight-carrying record, although Persian War was, despite what it says on his Wiki page, only 4th in the weights (below Sempervivum (12-2), Hill House (12-1) and Black Justice (12-0)). Persian War beat 32 others, in a time 11 secs faster than the opening novice (20 ran). Both winners on the day won by half a length.

Good to hear from you ged

Turf trivia name the 3 horses that finished 1st 2nd and 3rd in the Newbury race then finished the first 3 home in the champion hurdle but in reverse order

Oh So Risky one?

Yes ged he as 2nd in both

Tutti Quanti's time being 4 secs slower than the opener isn't a fair comparison, as there had been over two hours of rain between the two races.

Having said that, I am still dubious about yesterday's race.Tutti Quanti has huge feet - bigger than anything else in the race - and it's possible that he really was the only horse to act on that ground yesterday.

Whatever happens, he's no Make A Stand though. Make A Stand is the only hurdler I've ever seen who seemed to jump faster than he galloped, and there's no way Make A Stand would have run down the last and crashed through it the way that Tutti Quanti did yesterday.

My thoughts also on the time comparison,my opening post wasn’t necessarily comparing him with make a stand it as just he manor of his progress and front running style,clearly must be careful on here how you post things.

screaming - educate me - do racing horseshoes come in different sizes?

Sorry, jimnast. I wasn't trying to start an argument.

I did love Make A Stand though. I once asked Pipe how you got a horse to jump hurdles so consistently and so fluently, hoping to learn the details of whatever magic he was using on  schooling mornings.

"Lots of practice" was the reply.

Flakey Dove

3rd and 1st penzance

Make A Stand seemed to gather himself up a few strides from the hurdle and accelerate into it.

I also loved make a stand screaming they were great days hopefully the weather will pick up soon and you can enjoy the fresh air of the racecourses.

Those saying yesterdays race was the worst ever need to look back at the previous runnings this decade ,I would be extremely confident yesterdays field will achieve much more in the future.

Yes they do, ged. There was a retired racehorse at Newbury sharing an enclosure with its Shetland pony companion. They would have had different sizes of shoe. (I think shoe sizes run from size 0 to size 8, but it's a long time since I've used a farrier.)

One of Tutti Quanti's rivals yesterday, the well-backed W Greatex runner All In You, had lots of winning form on 'heavy' ground in France, but its feet were those of a dainty Flat racer, and he was duly pulled up. It really was especially deep ground at Newbury yesterday.

Thanks. So when the course farrier gets called to the start to re-plate one, he'd have to have different sizes in his bag?

Well, I have seen an on-course farrier try one shoe against a horse's foot, then select another instead.

Ged

Regarding screamings size of feet if you watch the documentary something to brighten up the morning,which is about mill reef Ian balding says the decision to run mill reef in the gimcrack on desperate ground had something to do with his big feet ,can’t remember word for word but that was a big part of the decision.

Thanks jimnast, and screaming. I've got that on tape somewhere, but I'm not sure I've got anything to play it on. I've often heard that about size of feet (though not for that Gimcrack).

I also have the tape but no longer have anything to play it on,but who knows record players are coming back for the old records,you tube might be where you could find it ged.

Completing the three was 1994 winner Large Action, who then came a close third in the Champion Hurdle in his novice season. There was less fannying about in those days.

Large Action

Didn't see the above post...honest

I had me hand up first

Tutti Quanti 155
Lulamba 167

Well autocue you can also have a point Duffy

Horses feet are as individual as any other physical part of their makeup.

Hooves are all different shapes and sizes which makes the work of the farrier so important when it comes to horses longterm soundness.

THe hoof continues to grow and needs to be managed by filing back like human nails. The most difficult part of the farrier's job is to ensure that the hoof is not overgrown, this includes daily application of hoof oil by  stable staff to protect against brittleness. A diet that doesn't inflame the lamination of the hoof wall yet provides a guard against brittleness is also vital because racehorses are continually being reshod and having nails inserted and removed regularly before and after races. Finding a spot to insert new nails without compromising the structure of the hoof is yet another skill that makes the farrier such a vital part of the trainer's team.

As the saying goes, 'no foot no horse'.

Very interesting Loper. Going back to size of Tutti Quanti's feet, I recall that Aggressor had big feet. It was mentioned frequently about his feet and passed on to his offspring. They liked soft ground as well.

Thanks, Tommy.

Yes, Aggressor seemed to have a preference for softer ground but I can't vouch for the size of his feet as, believe it or not, he was well before my time.

A simple rule of thumb is basically the bigger the horse the bigger the feet, which doesn't necessarily mean the tallest, but more the biggest boned.

Do you know Aggressor's vital statistics?

Aggressor's career, although already pretty useful as a 2yo, was one of progression culminating in his 5yo season being his best, thus suggesting that he was a slow maturer who needed time to show his best.

It's a shame that the racing historians down play his achievements because his Timeform rating of 130 and his classic winning victims in that 1960 season are not to be sniffed at.

Yes Loper , my riding horse was once shod by Mill House's farrier , he had a policy of allowing plenty of growth which ultimately gave mine ' atypical laminitis ' caused by a slight change in gait . From then on (with a new farrier) his hoof was drastically trimmed and no further problems from 6 to 32 when he went .

Great to hear that the alternative farrier was able to deduce the problem sufficiently quickly, Paulo. I often think that laminitis in horses must be as painful as gout is in humans. If not resolved euthanasia is sometimes the kindest option, something that I have occasionally wished for, being a long term sufferer from gout!

32 a great innings though.

Loper. Sorry I have no idea of Aggressor's vital stastics. I'm sure the feet comment was true though. I seem to remember a good 2yo winning the Horris Hill Stakes in early sixties in very soft ground and commentators saying it was due to the size of his feet same as his sire Aggressor. The 2yo may have been trained by a McCormack or McCormick. Matty?. All from memory so a bit hazy. Yourself and Paulo47 are far better qualified than I am to talk about feet/hooves of horses.

good to see a Gerry Fielden winner produce a top notch performance  it was always one of my favourite races (Mighty Mogul, Large Action, Bacchanal etc) although in the 'good old days' the winners would have been handicapped out of the Tote-Schweppes (!) race.  Tutti could indeed be top class and deserves an entry in Champion Hurdle, but it also reflects a sorry decline in the handicap race which used to have max field of really good horses.

look at this list of winners and compare to last 20 years, frightening!!

1972    Comedy of Errors    5    12-00    Bill Smith    Fred Rimell
1973    Lanzarote    5    11-10    Richard Pitman    Fred Winter
1974    Flash Imp    5    11-06    Jeff King    Ron Smyth
1975    Dramatist    4    11-01    Bill Smith    Fulke Walwyn
1976    Beacon Light    5    12-00    Andy Turnell    Bob Turnell
1977    Decent Fellow    4    11-09    Richard Linley    Toby Balding
1978    Connaught Ranger    4    11-09    John Burke    Fred Rimell
1979    Celtic Ryde    4    11-05    Martin O'Halloran    Peter Cundell
1980    Pollardstown    5    11-08    Philip Blacker    Stan Mellor
1981    Heighlin    5    11-08    Steve Jobar    David Elsworth
1982    Royal Vulcan    4    11-00    Jonjo O'Neill    Neville Callaghan
1983    Buck House    5    11-08    Tommy Carmody    Mouse Morris
1984    Ra Nova    5    11-03    Mark Perrett    Nan Kennedy
1985    Gala's Image    5    11-00    Richard Linley    Mercy Rimell
1986    Barnbrook Again    5    11-00    Ross Arnott    David Elsworth
1987    Celtic Chief    4    11-00    Peter Scudamore    Mercy Rimell
1988    Kribensis    4    11-06    Richard Dunwoody    Michael Stoute
1989    Cruising Altitude    6    11-03    Jamie Osborne    Oliver Sherwood
1990    Fidway    5    11-06    Steve Smith Eccles    Tim Thomson Jones
1991    Gran Alba    5    11-00    Graham McCourt    Richard Hannon, Sr.
1992    Mighty Mogul    5    11-03    Richard Dunwoody    David Nicholson
1993    Bold Boss    4    11-03    Richard Dunwoody    Martin Pipe
1994    Large Action    6    10-09    Jamie Osborne    Oliver Sherwood
1995    Killone Abbot    6    10-03    Jamie Osborne    Jim Old
1996    Zabadi    4    11-06    Norman Williamson    David Nicholson
1997    Sanmartino    5    11-06    Adrian Maguire    David Nicholson
1998    Wahiba Sands    5    11-00    Richard Dunwoody    Martin Pipe
1999    Bacchanal    5    11-09    Mick Fitzgerald    Nicky Henderson

A mate of mine worked at sea with the Lighthouse boats and he came back from a trip claiming to have a red hot tip.  He didn’t bet and we thought we knew better.  Flash Imp, went in at 33’s.  Don’t know if it was the race in the list shown or not.  He enjoys reminding us!

What a list Gordon I hadn’t realised the race had such an illustrious role of honour ,this century we have had rock and ruby ,epatante and afsoun wasn’t to bad.

On another subject are you familiar with the diggers ?

Hi Jimnast, yes the Gerry Fielden was a proper race, like the Castleford Chase, the Edward Whittle and several others now a shadow of their former selves, maybe Tutti will give it a boost.

I know the pub in Edinburgh, close(ish) to Hearts ground with a good selection of Malts that is called Diggers by the locals - is that it?

Once run by a legend known as Bill Farmer.  As you walked in the door you stuck the number of fingers in the air of the pints of heavy you wanted.  Once you worked your way through the throng they were almost poured.  What a loss he was.  Pub still there and operating I think.

Still going strong. I'm 5 mins walk from it.

Up in the Highlands as a kid,'heavy' on draught was always McEwans Export, bottles of Whitbread an occasional alternative, but in Lanarkshire 'heavy' is/was Tartan Special which I definitely enjoy but rarely find on tap these days.  I worked at Hays Lemonade during summer holidays and we delivered beer/soft drinks all over the North East and there were a couple of pubs, majority around Aberdeen Harbour which would always take a few cases of Fowlers Wee Heavy, haven't seen that in a long long time, I think it was the 'heavy' drinkers equivalent to Buckfast!

Diggers - The Athletic Arms. We used to call in on the way to Murrayfield for 5 nations matches in the eighties. It was always rammed. As said earlier you held your hand up with fingers showing the number of pints you wanted. It was assumed you were having McEwans 80/- from the Fountainbridge brewery. A good time was had by all. There then arose the problem of being packed like a sardine in the terraces with four pints inside you.

That’s it Gordon athletic is it’s proper name

All round excellent choice of drinks I was in the Thompson bar in haymarket when someone tipped it me

I know you're a Thompson afficianado - the crowd in there would certainly know a good bar, if I'm that neck of the woods it's the Laich

Is that the one near the station Gordon

No it's between Gorgie and Saughton, easy walk to Murrayfield or Tynecastle.  Haymarket or Ryries are close to Haymarket and the only pub near Waverley where you won't pay tourist prices is the Ticket Office (a Wetherspoons so always busy)

It was ryries we went in on the Sunday as Thomason’s is closed on a Sunday to be fair it sold jarl for me and New Zealand wine for the other half so all happy.

We did have a few hours in a place called the shore which was ok Gordon buy we never venture by princess street or the royal mile

It will be interesting to see what Alexei does in the Kingwell. Tutti Quanti boosted the Welsh Champion Hurdle form. He and Alexei have improved since then. On RPR this season Alexei is 135 139 149 153. He seems to have been marked down for getting beat last time, but the run showed continued improvement and he was giving weight away to Hot Fuss and Wilfull who both went on to frank the form. In the NRNB market Tutti Quanti is best price 20/1 and Alexei is 33/1 with bet365 so I think that’s an anomaly. If Alexei bombs out on Saturday and he doesn’t take up his CH entry you get your money back. If he beats Golden Ace his price contracts. Worth a look?

Been to murrayfield a few times and hadn’t realised how close to tynecastle it was

Regarding the kingwell I as going to say alderbrook was the last to do the double but of course golden ace did it last season,

All this talk of Murrayfield and Tynecastle and never a mention of Hertz winning the league.??

they'll be an honourable second

LoyalHoncho09 Feb 26 14:40Joined: 28 May 10 | Topic/replies: 21,239 | Blogger: LoyalHoncho's blog
A mate of mine worked at sea with the Lighthouse boats and he came back from a trip claiming to have a red hot tip.  He didn’t bet and we thought we knew better.  Flash Imp, went in at 33’s.  Don’t know if it was the race in the list shown or not.  He enjoys reminding us!

That race may have been the 1973 Cesarewitch - Flash Imp won at 25/1 sp.  He was a decent dual purpose horse by the look of it. Won the 1975 Grand Met as well.
He did win on his 2 year old debut at Epsom in 1971 at 33/1 sp, so if it was that race your mate gave the tip in that was some inside info !

Flash Imp subsequently went chasing and unfortunately  suffered a broken back in a fall at Hereford in 1978

Bad result against st mirren Tommy

Before going chasing Flash Imp came 2nd to Comedy of errors in tne 1975 C/hurdle
and the following year was 3rd to Ntght Nurse and Birds Nest.

Add Katchit and Hors La Loi III since Alderbrook jimnast. I remember Tommo tipping Alderbrook at 33/1 for the Champion just before the Kingwell win.

Should have remembered hors la loi autocue not a bad overall record then the kingwell before alderbrook we had kribensis,I remember see you then pulling up when the race was on a Thursday.

I should think thommo stills goes on about his tip

was always a good day's racing on the thurs jim...the kingwell & the jim ford challenge cup

Yes wonders dessie v kildimo the two best staying chasers of that period

Here’s some f the winners

Kinloch brea
Border incident
Gay Spartan
Diamond edge
Silver buck
Combs ditch
The awesome Burrough hill lad
Dessie
Kildimo
Cavvies clown
Cool ground
Go ballistic
See more business

And the final running Neptune collonges

you missed out my fav winner jim

I’ll guess monsuir le cure or double thriller

no coome hill

I wouldn’t have guessed that wonders why is he your favourite?

west country trained horse not 1 of the big boys...brought a crowd great atmos

won a badger beer also

Thanks Dixie.  It must have been Epsom as he was definitely 33/1.

That’s a good reason

Badger beer another race in decline

I backed Coome Hill for the Hennessy soon after he won the Badger. 14/1 rings a bell. Happy days. The Badger was a trial for the big handicap then. Not so much now.

Beat the grey monk autocue after winning the badger sp 11/2 anti post was much better back then .incidentally pulled up in the next 2 Hennessy

Gordon63. I too remember Fowlers Wee Heavy must have been about 8% proof. Came in a very small bottle 200/250 ml ? Haven't seen it for a few years brewed in Alloa I think.I sometimes had the 'Big Whitbread' you mentioned if the draught was iffy (Ushers).
Back to the Gerry Fielden and I'm sure it was a Limited Handicap early days.
The conversation about Flash Imp 33/1 which race ? Ron Smyth won the Imperial Cup with Flash Imp mid 70s and with Irish Imp 12 yrs previously I think at a big price. Maybe Dixie's mate tipped the Irish version.

Mate and myself won a doubles darts competition (more than 40 years ago when I could still see properly!!) and as we were leaving the barman said I have no idea how you managed to do that because you two are the only ones drinking 'Big Whitbread' here and you've done a case of 24!! those were the days...

All the old boys used to drink wee heavies and a glass and always finished the whisky first and save a bit of the wee to wash out the glass so no whisky was wasted.  There were standards you know! 
Abiding memory is of Trades Thursday night, hours 5 to 10 closing, working men with wages plus holiday money, all night long.  Four deep at the bar from very early on.  Like animals at feeding time.

I would love to go back to the old hours loyal Sunday dinner especially 12 till 3 then 7 till 1030

How can I do anything but agree.  Sunday morning, not allowed out ( you’d be too noisy ) so waiting impatiently for the old man to finish the Sunday Post so I could read about the fit a.  And he always looked at another page. Eventually getting the chance but then allowed out!  Off to the park for the rolling “take-on”.  Home for 4 and Sunday Dinner.  Toad-in-the-hole, for eight, how did she do it.  Not allowed out until we’ve done the dishes, back to the take on.  Home at dark, hoping to skive a bath.  No chance!  Having to watch Elliot Ness before bed.
Oh for the chance to do it all again! 

The Sunday sleep after mums dinner from about 4 till 630 quick bath then stood outside waiting for the doors to reopen.

If memory serves the sunday hours with us were 12 to 14.30 (unless there was a lock in!) and then off to the local pitch for a 20 a side kick about, showing off the latest cars, cassettes (yes!), CB radio/accessories, hoping a few of the rare local talent took a walk past on way to the swings, then back to the pub at 18.00 - happy days indeed