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GAELIC WARRIOR
GAELIC WARRIOR
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No, but as far back as he was he was still racing and then came a complete pace collapse, banking on that happening as we saw in that race is highly unusual.
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Lulamba has proven Graded 2M winning form though,duffy.
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Yeah, I'm not saying that he won't win the Arkle, he's a class horse, but it's all relative to the price, he's a horse that will appreciate further, you appreciated that yourself and yesterday we saw him slightly on the edge through the race that raises a question on quicker ground, over a shorter trip it could be an issue, and at 5/4 if you haven't backed him already, it would be a worry. I think that this particular issue will be highlighted a lot when discussing his chance in the next few weeks.
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I will wait for the day before deciding duffy.
Plenty can go wrong |
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Probably wise
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There's far too much conjecture about the ideal proximity of prep-runs in my view as it's a case of 'each to their own'.
I'd guess very few people on this forum will recall a surfeit of winners at the 1994 Festival whose previous runs were just over a fortnight before (17+ days) at the Kempton Racing Post Trophy meeting and it should also be remembered that there were only 3 days back then, so just 18 races. I remembered that it was 1994 but I had to re-check on the staggering results for which I'm still seeking an explanation. On that card we had the following winners who also followed up at Cheltenham: Balasani 9/2 Mysilv 2/1 Monsieur Le Cure 15/2 Antonin 4/1 As well as those there was Arctic Kinsman who ran 3rd in the Dovecote but won The Supreme at 50/1! Behind Antonin at Kempton were three other Festival winners in The Fellow who won the Gold Cup 7/1, Fighting Words 9/2 & Elfast 8/1. Remittance Man & Deep Sensation fought out the Emblem Chase and while both failed to win at Cheltenham, the former fell at 11/4f and the latter ran creditably in 3rd. The fastest time on the card was 20 seconds below standard so the official 'soft' in the going description could well have been worse. I'm sure you'll agree...that was a staggering portent for Cheltenham - where was my crystal ball?  Other Festival winners that year included Dizzy whose prep was just 6 days earlier, Flakey Dove (10) Time For A Run (10) Snitton Lane (12) & Double Silk (14) so it's clear how things have changed since those days. I get that in the intervening 32 years training methods/schedules have changed a fair bit, but I've never forgotten those incredible stats and a recent run (or lack of one) really doesn't bother me too much if it's from an outfit who know how to prepare a horse that's had a Cheltenham target. I remember being both fascinated and baffled by the 1994 meeting and since then I've never been too concerned about the proximity of races if the trainer thinks it's perfect for their jumpers' schedules...especially when they've had options. What is of importance is if a jumper has had a recent, noticeably arduous race on bottomless ground. We've all heard numerous times about a race being lost due to its previous run...but where do you draw the line? |
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I agree as posted 14.26 and 20.09. If in doubt just play the races which don’t feature DRF runners and watch, enjoy and savour the ones that do.
Enjoyable detail Herbie. |
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LH - it's an absolutely incredible, statistical quandary which smashes every widely-held
belief and makes a mockery of recent trends and is exactly why I don't get too concerned or go balls-deep worrying whether my selections fit a prescribed pattern - let 'em run |
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Very interesting post herbie and I completely agree about all this it might come to soon ,you mention mysilv well in 1996 the horse ran 6th in the champion hurdle then two days later finished 2nd in the stayers hurdle.
The day you mention at kempton I remember very well it was an 8 race card as the greenhall whitley was transferred from haydock which the previous Saturday was abandoned,although no relevance to your point the race was won by master oats who went on to win the 95 gold cup ,other future festival winner on the card was barna boy ,cab on target also ran and was 2nd he in 95 finished 2nd when Cheltenham first tried a 4 th day to see how it went ,it wasn’t classed as a festival day but was the Friday the day after master oats won the gold cup. Not a bad card at kempton that afternoon. |
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Jim - I did see when checking on those results that the next year's Gold Cup winner Master Oats won a rescheduled race transferred from Haydock and I should've mentioned that (to give that terrific card its due gravitas) but I thought it was irrelevant to the main point regarding the proximity of the meeting to the Festival.
I've also just re-read my post and realised I neglected to mention that the Emblem Chase combatants were the previous two winners of the Champion Chase and I must've just assumed that everyone would already know that...whilst conveniently overlooking the reality-check that I'm an old baldy pr☆ck and that not all posters will know the value of form from 32 years ago! Then again...is this forum infested with coffin dodgers? How fortunate were those blessed enough to be in attendance that day - I'd expect plenty on here went...but probably wouldn't recall just how significant it was. Has there ever been a better, unexpectedly classy meeting so close to peak week in the sport when so many didn't just turn up...but they also delivered? |
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Out of all of the Cheltenham Festival changes for the worse in the last couple of decades perhaps the most ridiculous is the rule saying horses cannot run twice at the Festival.
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Somewhat similar, Newbury's trials day ("Super Saturday") card in 2012, which was rearranged for the following Friday, and I think was free entry. At least 8 festival winners (probably more) ran on that card (+ at least one Royal Ascot winner), including Sprinter Sacre, Long Run, Coneygree, and Sire de Grugy (although unlike your example, many of those festival wins weren't in the same season).
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'99 Generosa won the 5.05 on the Tuesday & 3RD in the 3.15 Wednesday,
2 competeive H'caps.Didn't do her no harm. |
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Absolutely ridiculous!
 Of all the interfering changes we've seen over the decades (under the guise of 'welfare') I think the only one which is mostly appreciated is the 'no remounting' rule - at least I can see there's a reason for that. Imagine being a bold owner who's rolled the dice and entered a 4yo in The Triumph but given preference to The Supreme or the old Sun Alliance Novice Hurdle (both open to any age) because even at 4yo the longer trip is required...and then whipping round at the start or unseating at the first...only for some pompous béllénd (who hates the sport) to have decreed it a 'welfare' issue as to why you can't run three days later in The Triumph - you'd be seething!  And though some may think that's unlikely...future Champion Hurdler Hors La Loi & Sabin Du Loir both prevailed as 4yo against their elders, as did Crystal Spirit! So considering how few (I'd assume) take that route, that's a fair strike-rate. Furthermore, Inkslinger (before my time) back in the 70s won twice in a couple of days - a tremendous achievement! Would the next step then be extended to every other 'festival' meeting...and then become the norm on the flat too? It's the thin end of the wedge as these 'concerned' activists don't want ANY sport involving animals - that's their endgame Choisir's memorable double at Royal Ascot was great for the sport...and that was emulated by Blue Point a few years ago. Prior to that, the tough Irish mare Stanerra also completed an unlikely double over 10 & 12f. And doesn't everyone look forward to a speedy 2yo Royal Ascot winner ambitiously targeting the Nunthorpe? I think that might be in jeopardy in the future  The question of 'where do you draw the line?' pops up again as does the 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' mindset. |
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Strontium - I remember that...though having 'senior moments' nowadays means
that I struggle to recall obvious events/stats since the turn of the century |
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Penzance - there have been loads to have two outings - it seemed to be more of an Irish trend years ago.
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PS - that lengthy last post was in response to Go Ballistic.
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Did Willie Wumpkins not win two festival races in the same year? Or was it at Aintree?
Racing has given too much ground to the antis in my opinion, in every sense and area, imv. |
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inkslinger 1973
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I don't know LH - I was just starting my racing odyssey when he won in 1978 I think.
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Indeed Herbie. It was certainly not uncommon for Irish horses to run twice at the Festival and made a lot of sense, especially for smaller stables, if you were going to have to pay for transport across the Irish Sea regardless. They tended to run pretty well on the 2nd run too, even when it was a 3 day festival.
Of course it defies logic that a novice that bolts up in the Imperial Cup can then be one of the favourites for the Supreme Novices 3 days later but the winner of the Supreme Novices cannot run in the County Hurdle 3 days later. |
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youve outdone the odyssey by 38 years
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I think it's a good rule for punters. By 10 am on the Tuesday, we have final declarations for Tue, Wed and Thu, and a very solid idea what's going to run where on Friday.
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BF - I'll reluctantly concede that there is a perverse wisdom in that statement though I think
everyones' enjoyment/leisure is missing a big chunk of fulfilment if they're not a racing fan  |
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lotus eaters for you
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1985 Boreen prince won the Arkle on Tuesday and came 5th/6th in the Gold Cup 2 days later.
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generosa went close, 2 days in a row, used to go over for the leops sunday which was ladbroke day and is now part of the drf, we used to do navan sat leops sun
saw her run miserably at the drf, duly ran 2 days in a row at the festival, almost pulled off both wins but think was a ist and 3rd similar ladbroke horse was xenaphon who i backed heavily at leops and then at chelt, sadly died not long after think over a fence |
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If "Stormin" Norman could have kept the ride on Generosa she would have done the double.
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Herbie
I was lucky to be there hadn’t planned to go and was booked on the coach to see United at Upton Park when I saw the card I sold my match ticket still went on the coach and came back on the coach. |
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I bet you never had a clue how solid the day's form was
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One reason you don’t have double entries at Cheltenham is that trainers used to fiddle handicaps by declaring Graded horses. Spoazine was one when Nicholls declared Rigmarole which lopsided handicap with Sporazine off top weight off 10st 11lb when pulled out 30mins from race. Ruby parachuted onto Spora and the rest is history.
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Strontium
Great call that Newbury card look at the list for a Friday afternoon Sprinter sacre Zaynar French opera Long run What a friend Tidal bay The giant bolster Burton port Zarkandar Get me out f here Sire du grugy Darlan Montbazon Junior Buena vista Walkon For non stop Shuthefrontdoor Gevery chamberlin Coneygree No particular order although the best at the top And all for free |
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Regarding the form it didn’t take long to realise how strong the form would be ,the old racing post chase was a very good race most years
The first three winners were Dessie Rhyme and reason Bonanza boy Both mr frisk and seagram placed n those 3 runnings Docklands express twice beating peg well bay in one of his wins then splitting zetas lad and Bradbury star in 93 then splitting antonin and the fellow in 94. Rough quest won as did the ill fated Gloria victus who beat Marlborough who won the foot and mouth gold cup at sandown,and then this race 4 years later,since then like a lot of these great races there hasn’t been anything better than average that’s won the race, |
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Hibore - I remember that well as I'd backed Rigmarole AP at 25/1 for the
Champion Hurdle in which he finished unplaced behind Hardy Eustace so he was NEVER at any stage gonna go for The County. Everyone could see how it was manipulating 'the rules' and Nicholls was a bit sheepish about that as it really was taking the píss  |
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Jim - that's a great roll of honour and it's a similar theme to a thread I saw earlier
talking bout the degeneration of The Gerry Fielden Hurdle - sad times nowadays to see such heritage handicaps demoted...and to see bums winning them! |
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Herbie
I was also on rigmarole for that years champion hurdle at a similar price ,he was really impressive in the Greatwood ,in the bula for me he only had rooster booster to beat and at 33/1 it was worth taking a chance ,never backed him at wincanton as ide already backed him for the champion hurdle and felt if he won the kingwell i would be even happier with my anti post bet |
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Hotel Minella was the one I remember with Aidan O'Brien causing much grumbling for leaving him in the Coral Cup (I think) after he'd run in the Champion Hurdle. Definitely a bit more difficult now but to me, it's always been a bit of a red herring - trainers can do that in any handicap if they have a horse with roughly the correct mark and could still do it at the Festival with a horse that was always skipping Cheltenham or a horse that had not much chance at the weights with the handbrake applied. Personally I never had a problem with that particular fiddling tactic anyway, one of the realities of open handicaps is a much better horse keeping your "skillfully fiddled" horse out of the handicap (whether it runs or not). Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.
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I might be wrong but think Tom Scudamore was jocked up on Sporazine who rarely rode for Nicholls. It wasn’t that subtle
 We all started backing Sporazine at 20/1 as was obvious what was going to happen. Huge cheer went up at Cheltenham when announcer said jockey change…Ruby Walsh. Backed to fav and just about held on. Interesting if you watch race that Harchibald try to lead most of the way of 10st if only they knew…. |
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Happy memories hibore as that made Walsh leading rider of the meeting the county back then as it still should be was the final race so it was a very late victory.
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Hibore
Can you remember who was sent of joint favourite with sporazene in the county hurdle clue is he made a huge contribution to the Cheltenham festival |