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Dancing Brave not fav for 1986 KG
Dancing Brave not fav for 1986 KG
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knight , difference of opinion makes racing. Have to say I think Eddery didn't hold on long enough and came too soon. That's usually or always the case if you are riding a 9/10f horse over 12f. You want to creep up on the stayer. Not force it earlier and make it more of a test. I think this was Piggott's view but could be corrected on that. I'm talking about Epsom not the Curragh. I believe Secreto didn't run there.
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yes 2014 wasnt bad at all , id forgotten till i looked it up now, quite a few group1/classic winners to come out of there
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howard...I shall watch the 1984 Derby again tomorrow to see if your view changes my mind. You may be correct.
but to my eye Eddery could have 'sealed the deal' a few yards earlier and Secreto would not have got to him? After all, in the Irish Derby EGS was not held up until the last moment, or was he? I shall look at that race as well and report back.... Either way, Eddery knew he had dropped a boll*x and, apparently, suggested an appeal as he dismounted on the grounds the winner had lent on him. But Sangster was too much of a gent to behave like that and dismissed the idea. Of course, overall, Eddery was brilliant but a great shame he sodd*ed up in a Derby! |
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impossible123 says that Dancing Brave and Frankel were, in his opinion, 'the best two horses'. They were certainly good, but I agree with Lester Piggott. Neither would have lived with Ribot. Timeform's ratings are miles out. Ribot would have buried Frankel over the Derby distance. The furthest Frankel ever won over was 10 furlongs 132yards. Also, Frankel always slept in his own horsebox every night. He never left England. Ribot not only won in Italy, but in France and England too. Frankel, unlike Ribot, would never have won an Arc de Triomphe - Ribot won two. Without question, Ribot was the greatest flat race horse ever.
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1984 derby - eddery said he was going too well and got there too soon as even on the bridle he found himself in front - he reckoned the mistake was already made at that point and if he had known he would held egs up even further down the pack - as well as being a potential non-stayer he didn’t always do a lot when in front of- caught in no-mans land eddery reckoned if he had kicked on earlier from there he would have either won or been beaten further
The Irish derby was a small field and I think from memory a slowly run race - egs just followed rainbow quest through and mugged him comfortably in the last half furlong - I’m not sure it proved conclusively that egs stayed 12f or would have stayed a strongly run 12f |
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also I’m 99% sure eddery did lodge an objection against secreto despite it being a slightly awkward situation to do so
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I would also be 99% certain he did
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Jockey
You say ribot would have buried frankel over the derby distance well frankel would have buried ribot over a mile and sharpo would have buried ribot over 5 furlongs and . And what relevance is the point you make frankel slept in his own horse box every night ? |
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Frankel was magnificent...but was subject to the modern day disease of 'hype'. Enable, although on ratings not as good as Frankel, won on Turf and AW and won in England, France, Ireland and the US. To my mind, her durability was what Frankel was never given the chance to prove.
Lastly, it does amuse me when punters are so adamant about what would have 'buried this and buried that' etc etc. Horse racing, similar to life as a whole, is made up of shades of grey and is rarely so black and white. In my long experience of gambling on the nags, most punters lose because they develop way too firm opinions in front of what the bare figures tell them. Of course, the later said, whether Eddery was too early or too late on EGS in 1984, I do hold a very firm view that the horse's defeat was his fault. And, Eddery did indeed object to the result which has shown my memory of that day to be incorrect! |
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Buried is a word I would never use when comparing horses the knight I as just making the point to jockey as it was what he described would happen.
Frankel may not of left these shore's perhaps the health of sir Henry played a part I don’t know,but for 3 years he turned up everywhere that was on the agenda including his final race when connections deep down thought he shouldn’t have run but didn’t want to disappoint the public who had come to see his final run. |
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Knight tell me a better performance on a turf racecourse last 60 years than Frankel's Queen Anne. Timeform don't think there was one.
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And jimnast would bury impossible123 in the Forumrealistic stakes.
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Howard
An absolutely stunning performance as much as I rated frankel that was jaw dropping.i don’t think York was that far behind either. |
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yes those were the 2 Thought York was the most stunning but just on the numbers I suppose slamming Excelebration that far edged it. That horse was one of the best milers for years imo. Didn't perform at his very best there trying to match strides with F.
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For me it was the Queen Anne over the judmonte timeforms final comment on the Queen Anne review was he will never be beaten.
Funny the dual on the downs never gets a look in yet he beat an outstanding miler by 5 lengths. |
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didnt frankel beat the irish derby winner treasure beach about 20 lengths in the r lodge
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Just over 10 lengths elisjohn
He beat 23 individual group one winners in his 3 seasons entertaining us not bad really |
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Did he indeed. Wow.
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jimnast, that was a very long 10 lengths id say
 , ill try and get the race up |
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https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2912481982397493
frankel winning the r lodge , whaw about 4 furlongs out |
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OK. just watched the 1984 Derby again - and then the Irish Derby of the same year.
To my eye, had Eddery rode EGS the same way at Epsom he rode him at the Curragh he would have won both races. In the Irish Derby he simply follows Rainbow Quest through then lets his mount go just inside the final furlong. Also, the Irish Derby looked a well run affair to me, not a slow race at all - but I haven't bothered to look at the times so I may be wrong here. I do maintain, though, that had he rode the horse the same way at Epsom he would have held Secreto. BUT, to be fair, I imagine that the EGS connections did not have confidence in the horse staying the 12 furlongs at Epsom and thus held on to him for so long. By the Curragh, well they knew the horse probably got the distance and that the Epsom tactics had not worked. So they had a clear picture of what to do in Ireland. Also, I can now see that what Howard said about producing EGS even later at Epsom may also have worked - more than one way to skin a cat. Whatever, EGS seems to have not won a Derby he should have won and then it happened again two years later with Dancing Brave. Ironic that in between, Slip Anchor blizted his field in his year - surely no debates possible on that!! |
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Yes they were much better whallop just look at the field for the 79 derby and what they went on to achieve and that doesn’t include the 2000 guineas winner tap on wood who had beaten the brilliant miler kris at Newmarket
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