Dancing Brave not fav for 1986 KG

He was always MY fav, and still is.

and mine, still think that the 12furlongs didnt suit him, there was no horse ever would have been near him over 10 imho

Dancing Brave and Frankel are the only two for me on the Flat. The best two horses and the best two trainers.

Best day out ever for me at Longchamps, looking for him with my bins to see him powering down the outside to pass them all.

My favourite, too.

The excitement when he cruised up at Ascot and Eddery looked across before quickening clear lives with me to this day. OK, he tired near the line but the pacemakers had gone mad fast.

My best friend and I had £400 each at 6/4 on the Brave with Robin Grossmith on the Ascot rails. Two days before I went out with my now wife for the first ever time - a blind date setup by someone she knew.

So, a marvellous Thursday to Saturday that is still vivid in my mind 39 years later....

Oh, to be young aagin but with the nous I have now!!!

lovely , the knight

1984 Epsom Derby was as THRILLING as 1986

and argumnts can be made which was the better 2nd placer.  This is not blasphemy, forumites need to know how good El Gran Senor was.

I backed Sharastani for a decent amount in the Derby and was convinced that he'd won on merit, and not because of Greville falling asleep out the back.
Subsequent races obviously made me realise how lucky I'd been

Thks elisjohn...

Regbutler...I do not think you were lucky in the Derby. You were if a race was all about which horse could run the fastest and nothing else. But a race is also about which horse handles a track, settles, plus much else. In the 1986 Derby, the winner did all of those things best and not the second!!

The knight, thanks for your reply
I understand what you're saying and you're right about Dancing Brave being the faster horse. I shall watch the race again later today, but my lasting impression is that Dancing Brave would have won if Greville had had him closer, started his move earlier. I would imagine if this forum was around then, there would have been meltdown on the numerous threads started regarding Greville.

Just watched the 86 Derby again
Greville is niggling away at Dancing Brave a few times at about the 5f and 3f poles, so perhaps not handling the turns and undulations well. He then has to come about 8 wide to make his run... Makes up about 10 lengths in the last furlong and a half, no exaggeration, absolutely flying home... The trouble is he needed to make up 11 lengths to win!

The commentator says at about the 3f pole, about the fav entering unknown territory, distance-wise, suggesting he might not stay... He certainly did stay!

"I would imagine if this forum was around then, there would have been meltdown on the numerous threads started regarding Greville."

Possible thread by Mics I would guess

Two things that come to mind when I remember the 1986 Derby besides the obvious debacle, is how universally underestimated
Shahrastani always seemed to be - he was way above average Derby winning standard but gets few plaudits.
Clearly the better horse lost but the Stoute colt won well...despite Dancing Brave's misfortune.

He was disappointing at Ascot but that's far from unusual at the height of Summer (especially for a 3yo) to run way below par.
There have been plenty of them to run inexplicably bad...most notably Auguste Rodin, Workforce & going back, even though he
prevailed, Nashwan didn't look half the horse he was at Epsom & Sandown.

Derby winners seem to either shine like Troy, Shergar, Reference Point, Generous & Galileo...or bomb out!
Nashwan was the exception in that he just got the job done in unspectacular style.

Shahrastani's superb Arc run rubber-stamped the merit of his brilliant Classic victories as it was a tremendous performance
to be just a couple of lengths off the best 12f performer I've seen in arguably the best contested race of the last 50 years!

Alas...back in those days they all went to stud early so we never got to see his full potential - I'd be confident he'd have
replicated that brilliance as a 4yo...or even improved.

The other thing is the run by Mashkour who's finished every bit as fast as Dancing Brave after having a troubled passage.
I think that race bottomed him (the Derby often leaves its mark) as if memory serves, he never performed anywhere near
that level again.

To even suggest that the late great Vincent O’Brian isn’t the greatest trainer who ever lived doesn’t know his onions.  Even the most devoted of Sir Henry fans would be ready to concede that. 
And worse, Guy Harwood?    You just have to laugh.

Correct.
A Master Trainer in both Codes

Jul 20, 2025 -- 11:00AM, The Knight wrote:

Thks elisjohn...Regbutler...I do not think you were lucky in the Derby. You were if a race was all about which horse could run the fastest and nothing else. But a race is also about which horse handles a track, settles, plus much else. In the 1986 Derby, the winner did all of those things best and not the second!!

Starkey got so much grief because he described Dancing Brave as 'bomb proof' before the race, but then didn't ride him as if he believed in his own words.

Jul 20, 2025 -- 1:13PM, Regbutler wrote:

Just watched the 86 Derby againGreville is niggling away at Dancing Brave a few times at about the 5f and 3f poles, so perhaps not handling the turns and undulations well. He then has to come about 8 wide to make his run... Makes up about 10 lengths in the last furlong and a half, no exaggeration, absolutely flying home... The trouble is he needed to make up 11 lengths to win! The commentator says at about the 3f pole, about the fav entering unknown territory, distance-wise, suggesting he might not stay... He certainly did stay!

'..oh so much to do, and oh so little time in which to do it...' I haven't checked the precise words, but they will do for context.

The french to this day are adamant that Bering would have won the Arc, but for getting injured during the race.

I loved Dancing Brave, but always seemed to back against it....lol apart from once, nay twice.....i had a double Power Bender 12s and DB 7/2 for the arc.

Power Bender came second to Dallas in the  .............. and the rest is history.

In these days I used to enter the Tote Ten to Follow competition.  He - a 3yo by then - was the first one I put in.  I had read that as a 2yo he had put in a quite startlingly fast time in a race at Nottingham.  That was enough for me and, of course, I followed him thereafter.
What a joy.  Just why Greville hung him out the back like that remains a mystery but the horse made up for it.
However Nijinsky was, and will always remain, my favourite.
But Frankel, more than either, took the breath away.  His Guineas run simply unforgettable.  A rare thing happened that day - spontaneous, hushed , incredulous applause from a knowledgeable racecourse crowd, which started about two furlongs out.  Astonishing.
And I leave out Sea The Stars, who I backed in the Guineas and who went on to win another Six Group 1’s.

Loved Dancing brave, but I’m not sure he‘d of
Got El gran senor, off the bridle in a Guineas
In may? Dancing brave ended up needing a mile
4, as the arc win proved

They would never of run EGS In a derby today
Back then a derby winner wasn’t devalued at stud

Best miler I’ve seen

zafonics gns win was the best ive seen

Loyalhoncho....for the record, Dancing Braves's very fast time on his debut was at Sandown, not Notts. And, in his only other race at at 2, he also clocked a very quick time at Newmarket.

Pity I paid no attention to speed figures back then!!!

But I still backed DB in the Craven, Gns, Derby, Eclipse, Diamond Stks, Arc and the Breeders Cup. So, only two reversals out of 7 wasn't too bad! He wasn't the greatest of all time by any means but that ARC win was stunning. Hard to see how Bering could have got past that massive turn of foot DB produced in the last 1.5 furlongs.

There has also been talk on here about El Gran Senor. Some valid stuff and a match between him and DB over a mile would have been very interesting. But, to me, EGS had his career soured by his Epsom Derby loss.

Afterwards, Eddery said plenty about why he rode the horse the way he did but surely he made a simple mistake? Holding on to the horse so very long was wrong. Had he kicked on just fifty yards earlier, Secreto would not have chased him down. He was over confident and should have sealed the deal. After all, he stayed the 12 furlongs in his Irish Derby win.

We all make errors in life, but when a someone at the very top of their game (Eddery) does it in the world's most famous flat race (as it was then) it is highly disappointing!! Then, two years later, Starkey was o bit over confident in another Derby on DB. Stuoid of both of them.

Thanks Knight.

Jul 21, 2025 -- 1:45AM, LoyalHoncho wrote:

Thanks Knight.

I'd've backed Dancing Brave in that theoretical mile contest. Greville Starkey was making his customary barking noises (when he was on a really good one) as he cruised past Swinburn on Green Desert (later, Champion Sprinter) in that Guineas. Mind, I'd be adding Zafonic and Zilzal to the contest to really spice it up.

For around a quarter of a century dancing brave was the best horse I saw his arc win was incredible and in a very strong field,a little fact about dancing brave his win at goodwood prior to longchamp was the last time no sp was returned in a uk horse race,regarding el gran senor he was brilliant no doubt about that and would be the second best miler I’ve seen but to say he was the best is been a little bit silly.

Good morning elisjohn hope your well

Zafonics 2000 guineas win was watched by those on course that day in relative silence due to an electrical storm just before the race which cut of the commentary,however you could hear the gasp as the knowledgeble crowd saw him swoop.

Zafonic           

https://www.facebook.com/racingtv/videos/zafonic-1993-2000-guineas/285186842...

jimnast21 Jul 25 08:53Joined: 03 Jan 01 | Topic/replies: 16,474 | Blogger: jimnast's blog
For around a quarter of a century dancing brave was the best horse I saw his arc win was incredible and in a very strong field,a little fact about dancing brave his win at goodwood prior to longchamp was the last time no sp was returned in a uk horse race,regarding el gran senor he was brilliant no doubt about that and would be the second best miler I’ve seen but to say he was the best is been a little bit silly.

re non return of the sp, tell me about it lol.....i added Dancing brave to my bet on All Haste, (basically to cover the tax on the bet) making it a double (5 grand double), i nearly always took a price, if allowed to.......but from memory it was 1/12, so decided not too in the hope the price lengthened...

Oh dear Aberdonia I should think tax was either 8 or 10 p back then can’t remember which,you are right about the early shows that afternoon he was definitely priced up and around 12s on sounds about right.

aberdonia. was there sp on the others in that race, ? so if d brave had lost or injured himself  in the race , youre bet would have been a loser

Elisjohn back then the rules were if you couldn’t win you couldn’t lose that seems to have disappeared over time with all the new bookmakers and exchanges popping up.

elisjohn21 Jul 25 09:45Joined: 15 Jun 03 | Topic/replies: 19,487 | Blogger: elisjohn's blog
aberdonia. was there sp on the others in that race, ? so if d brave had lost or injured himself  in the race , youre bet would have been a loser

i honestly cant remember on the others, and yes, i know, it was a risk,..couldnt even get out of the office to watch....All Haste did win at 5/6....i couldnt see that race either.....Had to rely on that william hill raceline on the phone.....

I would be pretty sure there were no sp returns on any of the horses in that race as unlike now the online firms couldn’t return there own prices the sp came from the racecourse.

i think the tax may have still been 10 per cent.....from memory i think it may have been reduced to 9 per cent at some point, but i am guessing.

between el gran senior and dancing brave

el gran senor the outstanding miler and most likely would have been over 10f dancing brave better over 12f imo

grevile did say dancing brave was “bomb proof” after the derby some comedian / wide-ass said “he wasn’t jockey proof”

Part of the issue imo is that dancing brave didn’t quicken immediately - greville said he was too switched-off / fell asleep in the derby and didn’t quicken as he expected initially - if you watch the eclipse tryptch cruises past dancing brave who’s being rowed along and then once he gets up to speed he flies past her - interesting what the betting in running would have made of that if was available then

to be honest he didnt look a no sp shot at about half a mile out in the select

el gran senor destroyed chief singer at a mile who then went on to destroy others at a mile and shorter - those who chief singer destroyed at shorter became champion sprinters the following year(s)

Lear fan not even close enough to see egs tail a top miler in his own right

Rousillon - considered an also- ran in 1984 - impressive champion miler in 1985


dancing braves guineas was not without substance either but to describe a view that egs could have been better than dancing brave as “silly” is a bit silly imo

Frankel tbf couldn’t do anymore than smash all his opponents by a furlong but must be one of the worst guineas on record - I think roderick O’Connor won the Irish equivalent and then become a pacemaker - can’t remember maybe one other horse won a listed race or something subsequently

dont think weve had a really good quality 1000/2000 in years, ps have we had a really top notch classic at all in the 21 century ?.

2014 2000 Guineas was pretty good elisjohn but obviously not the quality of those from the 80s

knight , difference of opinion makes racing. Have to say I think Eddery didn't hold on long enough and came too soon.  That's usually or always the case if you are riding a 9/10f horse over 12f. You want to creep up on the stayer. Not force it earlier and make it more of a test.   I think this was Piggott's view but could be corrected on that. I'm talking about Epsom not the Curragh. I believe Secreto didn't run there.

yes 2014 wasnt bad at all , id forgotten till i looked it up now, quite a few group1/classic winners to come out of there

howard...I shall watch the 1984 Derby again tomorrow to see if your view changes my mind. You may be correct.

but to my eye Eddery could have 'sealed the deal' a few yards earlier and Secreto would not have got to him? After all, in the Irish Derby EGS was not held up until the last moment, or was he?

I shall look at that race as well and report back....

Either way, Eddery knew he had dropped a boll*x and, apparently, suggested an appeal as he dismounted on the grounds the winner had lent on him. But Sangster was too much of a gent to behave like that and dismissed the idea.

Of course, overall, Eddery was brilliant but a great shame he sodd*ed up in a Derby!

impossible123 says that Dancing Brave and Frankel were, in his opinion, 'the best two horses'. They were certainly good, but I agree with Lester Piggott. Neither would have lived with Ribot. Timeform's ratings are miles out. Ribot would have buried Frankel over the Derby distance. The furthest Frankel ever won over was 10 furlongs 132yards. Also, Frankel always slept in his own horsebox every night. He never left England. Ribot not only won in Italy, but in France and England too. Frankel, unlike Ribot, would never have won an Arc de Triomphe - Ribot won two. Without question, Ribot was the greatest flat race horse ever.

1984 derby - eddery said he was going too well and got there too soon as even on the bridle he found himself in front - he reckoned the mistake was already made at that point  and if he had known he would held egs up even further down the pack - as well as being a potential non-stayer he didn’t always do a lot when in front of- caught in no-mans land eddery reckoned if he had kicked on earlier from there he would have either won or been beaten further

The Irish derby was a small field and I think from memory a slowly run race - egs just followed rainbow quest through and mugged him comfortably in the last half furlong - I’m not sure it proved conclusively that egs stayed 12f or would have stayed a strongly run 12f

Jul 21, 2025 -- 10:03AM, aberdonia wrote:

i think the tax may have still been 10 per cent.....from memory i think it may have been reduced to 9 per cent at some point, but i am guessing.

Betting tax was 8%, bookmakers charged 10%

also I’m 99% sure eddery did lodge an objection against secreto despite it being a slightly awkward situation to do so

I would also be 99% certain he did

Jockey

You say ribot would have buried frankel over the derby distance well frankel would have buried ribot over a mile and sharpo would have buried ribot over 5 furlongs and .

And what relevance is the point you make frankel slept in his own horse box every night ?

Frankel was magnificent...but was subject to the modern day disease of 'hype'. Enable, although on ratings not as good as Frankel, won on Turf and AW and won in England, France, Ireland and the US. To my mind, her durability was what Frankel was never given the chance to prove.

Lastly, it does amuse me when punters are so adamant about what would have 'buried this and buried that' etc etc.

Horse racing, similar to life as a whole, is made up of shades of grey and is rarely so black and white.

In my long experience of gambling on the nags, most punters lose because they develop way too firm opinions in front of what the bare figures tell them.

Of course, the later said, whether Eddery was too early or too late on EGS in 1984, I do hold a very firm view that the horse's defeat was his fault. And, Eddery did indeed object to the result which has shown my memory of that day to be incorrect!

Buried is a word I would never use when comparing horses the knight I as just making the point to jockey as it was what he described would happen.


Frankel may not of left these shore's perhaps the health of sir Henry played a part I don’t know,but for 3 years he turned up everywhere that was on the agenda including his final race when connections deep down thought he shouldn’t have run but didn’t want to disappoint the public who had come to see his final run.

Knight tell me a better performance on a turf racecourse last 60 years than Frankel's Queen Anne. Timeform don't think there was one.

And jimnast would bury impossible123 in the Forumrealistic stakes.

Howard

An absolutely stunning performance as much as I rated frankel that was jaw dropping.i don’t think York was that far behind either.

yes those were the 2   Thought York was the most stunning but just on the numbers I suppose slamming Excelebration that far edged it.  That horse was one of the best milers for years imo. Didn't perform at his very best there trying to match strides with F.

For me it was the Queen Anne over the judmonte timeforms final comment on the Queen Anne review was he will never be beaten.

Funny the dual on the downs never gets a look in yet he beat an outstanding miler by 5 lengths.

didnt frankel beat the irish derby winner treasure beach about 20 lengths in the r lodge

Just over 10 lengths elisjohn

He beat 23 individual group one winners in his 3 seasons entertaining us not bad really

Did he indeed.  Wow.

jimnast, that was a very long 10 lengths id say, ill try and get the race up

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2912481982397493

frankel winning the r lodge , whaw about 4 furlongs out

OK. just watched the 1984 Derby again - and then the Irish Derby of the same year.

To my eye, had Eddery rode EGS the same way at Epsom he rode him at the Curragh he would have won both races. In the Irish Derby he simply follows Rainbow Quest through then lets his mount go just inside the final furlong. Also, the Irish Derby looked a well run affair to me, not a slow race at all - but I haven't bothered to look at the times so I may be wrong here.

I do maintain, though, that had he rode the horse the same way at Epsom he would have held Secreto.

BUT, to be fair, I imagine that the EGS connections did not have confidence in the horse staying the 12 furlongs at Epsom and thus held on to him for so long. By the Curragh, well they knew the horse probably got the distance and that the Epsom tactics had not worked. So they had a clear picture of what to do in Ireland.

Also, I can now see that what Howard said about producing EGS even later at Epsom may also have worked - more than one way to skin a cat. Whatever, EGS seems to have not won a Derby he should have won and then it happened again two years later with Dancing Brave. Ironic that in between, Slip Anchor blizted his field in his year - surely no debates possible on that!!

Jul 23, 2025 -- 12:08AM, The Knight wrote:

OK. just watched the 1984 Derby again - and then the Irish Derby of the same year. To my eye, had Eddery rode EGS the same way at Epsom he rode him at the Curragh he would have won both races. In the Irish Derby he simply follows Rainbow Quest through then lets his mount go just inside the final furlong. Also, the Irish Derby looked a well run affair to me, not a slow race at all - but I haven't bothered to look at the times so I may be wrong here. I do maintain, though, that had he rode the horse the same way at Epsom he would have held Secreto. BUT, to be fair, I imagine that the EGS connections did not have confidence in the horse staying the 12 furlongs at Epsom and thus held on to him for so long. By the Curragh, well they knew the horse probably got the distance and that the Epsom tactics had not worked. So they had a clear picture of what to do in Ireland. Also, I can now see that what Howard said about producing EGS even later at Epsom may also have worked - more than one way to skin a cat. Whatever, EGS seems to have not won a Derby he should have won and then it happened again two years later with Dancing Brave. Ironic that in between, Slip Anchor blizted his field in his year - surely no debates possible on that!!

Some outstanding Derbys, those days: proper Derbys.

Yes they were much better whallop just look at the field for the 79 derby and what they went on to achieve and that doesn’t include the 2000 guineas winner tap on wood who had beaten the brilliant miler kris at Newmarket