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6/4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ73CLGd_fwbest qual vid just posted bbc coverage
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He was always MY fav, and still is.
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and mine, still think that the 12furlongs didnt suit him, there was no horse ever would have been near him over 10 imho
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Dancing Brave and Frankel are the only two for me on the Flat. The best two horses and the best two trainers.
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Best day out ever for me at Longchamps, looking for him with my bins to see him powering down the outside to pass them all.
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My favourite, too.
The excitement when he cruised up at Ascot and Eddery looked across before quickening clear lives with me to this day. OK, he tired near the line but the pacemakers had gone mad fast. My best friend and I had £400 each at 6/4 on the Brave with Robin Grossmith on the Ascot rails. Two days before I went out with my now wife for the first ever time - a blind date setup by someone she knew. So, a marvellous Thursday to Saturday that is still vivid in my mind 39 years later.... Oh, to be young aagin but with the nous I have now!!! |
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lovely , the knight
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1984 Epsom Derby was as THRILLING as 1986
and argumnts can be made which was the better 2nd placer. This is not blasphemy, forumites need to know how good El Gran Senor was. |
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I backed Sharastani for a decent amount in the Derby and was convinced that he'd won on merit, and not because of Greville falling asleep out the back.
Subsequent races obviously made me realise how lucky I'd been |
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Thks elisjohn...
Regbutler...I do not think you were lucky in the Derby. You were if a race was all about which horse could run the fastest and nothing else. But a race is also about which horse handles a track, settles, plus much else. In the 1986 Derby, the winner did all of those things best and not the second!! |
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The knight, thanks for your reply
I understand what you're saying and you're right about Dancing Brave being the faster horse. I shall watch the race again later today, but my lasting impression is that Dancing Brave would have won if Greville had had him closer, started his move earlier. I would imagine if this forum was around then, there would have been meltdown on the numerous threads started regarding Greville. |
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Just watched the 86 Derby again
Greville is niggling away at Dancing Brave a few times at about the 5f and 3f poles, so perhaps not handling the turns and undulations well. He then has to come about 8 wide to make his run... Makes up about 10 lengths in the last furlong and a half, no exaggeration, absolutely flying home... The trouble is he needed to make up 11 lengths to win! The commentator says at about the 3f pole, about the fav entering unknown territory, distance-wise, suggesting he might not stay... He certainly did stay! |
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"I would imagine if this forum was around then, there would have been meltdown on the numerous threads started regarding Greville."
Possible thread by Mics I would guess  |
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Two things that come to mind when I remember the 1986 Derby besides the obvious debacle, is how universally underestimated
Shahrastani always seemed to be - he was way above average Derby winning standard but gets few plaudits. Clearly the better horse lost but the Stoute colt won well...despite Dancing Brave's misfortune. He was disappointing at Ascot but that's far from unusual at the height of Summer (especially for a 3yo) to run way below par. There have been plenty of them to run inexplicably bad...most notably Auguste Rodin, Workforce & going back, even though he prevailed, Nashwan didn't look half the horse he was at Epsom & Sandown. Derby winners seem to either shine like Troy, Shergar, Reference Point, Generous & Galileo...or bomb out! Nashwan was the exception in that he just got the job done in unspectacular style. Shahrastani's superb Arc run rubber-stamped the merit of his brilliant Classic victories as it was a tremendous performance to be just a couple of lengths off the best 12f performer I've seen in arguably the best contested race of the last 50 years! Alas...back in those days they all went to stud early so we never got to see his full potential - I'd be confident he'd have replicated that brilliance as a 4yo...or even improved. The other thing is the run by Mashkour who's finished every bit as fast as Dancing Brave after having a troubled passage. I think that race bottomed him (the Derby often leaves its mark) as if memory serves, he never performed anywhere near that level again. |
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To even suggest that the late great Vincent O’Brian isn’t the greatest trainer who ever lived doesn’t know his onions. Even the most devoted of Sir Henry fans would be ready to concede that.
And worse, Guy Harwood? You just have to laugh. |
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Correct.
A Master Trainer in both Codes |
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The french to this day are adamant that Bering would have won the Arc, but for getting injured during the race.
I loved Dancing Brave, but always seemed to back against it....lol apart from once, nay twice.....i had a double Power Bender 12s and DB 7/2 for the arc. Power Bender came second to Dallas in the .............. and the rest is history. |
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In these days I used to enter the Tote Ten to Follow competition. He - a 3yo by then - was the first one I put in. I had read that as a 2yo he had put in a quite startlingly fast time in a race at Nottingham. That was enough for me and, of course, I followed him thereafter.
What a joy. Just why Greville hung him out the back like that remains a mystery but the horse made up for it. However Nijinsky was, and will always remain, my favourite. But Frankel, more than either, took the breath away. His Guineas run simply unforgettable. A rare thing happened that day - spontaneous, hushed , incredulous applause from a knowledgeable racecourse crowd, which started about two furlongs out. Astonishing. And I leave out Sea The Stars, who I backed in the Guineas and who went on to win another Six Group 1’s. |
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Loved Dancing brave, but I’m not sure he‘d of
Got El gran senor, off the bridle in a Guineas In may? Dancing brave ended up needing a mile 4, as the arc win proved They would never of run EGS In a derby today Back then a derby winner wasn’t devalued at stud Best miler I’ve seen |
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zafonics gns win was the best ive seen
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Loyalhoncho....for the record, Dancing Braves's very fast time on his debut was at Sandown, not Notts. And, in his only other race at at 2, he also clocked a very quick time at Newmarket.
Pity I paid no attention to speed figures back then!!! But I still backed DB in the Craven, Gns, Derby, Eclipse, Diamond Stks, Arc and the Breeders Cup. So, only two reversals out of 7 wasn't too bad! He wasn't the greatest of all time by any means but that ARC win was stunning. Hard to see how Bering could have got past that massive turn of foot DB produced in the last 1.5 furlongs. There has also been talk on here about El Gran Senor. Some valid stuff and a match between him and DB over a mile would have been very interesting. But, to me, EGS had his career soured by his Epsom Derby loss. Afterwards, Eddery said plenty about why he rode the horse the way he did but surely he made a simple mistake? Holding on to the horse so very long was wrong. Had he kicked on just fifty yards earlier, Secreto would not have chased him down. He was over confident and should have sealed the deal. After all, he stayed the 12 furlongs in his Irish Derby win. We all make errors in life, but when a someone at the very top of their game (Eddery) does it in the world's most famous flat race (as it was then) it is highly disappointing!! Then, two years later, Starkey was o bit over confident in another Derby on DB. Stuoid of both of them. |
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Thanks Knight.
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For around a quarter of a century dancing brave was the best horse I saw his arc win was incredible and in a very strong field,a little fact about dancing brave his win at goodwood prior to longchamp was the last time no sp was returned in a uk horse race,regarding el gran senor he was brilliant no doubt about that and would be the second best miler I’ve seen but to say he was the best is been a little bit silly.
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Good morning elisjohn hope your well
Zafonics 2000 guineas win was watched by those on course that day in relative silence due to an electrical storm just before the race which cut of the commentary,however you could hear the gasp as the knowledgeble crowd saw him swoop. |
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Zafonic
https://www.facebook.com/racingtv/videos/zafonic-1993-2000-guineas/285186842512854/ |
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jimnast21 Jul 25 08:53Joined: 03 Jan 01 | Topic/replies: 16,474 | Blogger: jimnast's blog
For around a quarter of a century dancing brave was the best horse I saw his arc win was incredible and in a very strong field,a little fact about dancing brave his win at goodwood prior to longchamp was the last time no sp was returned in a uk horse race,regarding el gran senor he was brilliant no doubt about that and would be the second best miler I’ve seen but to say he was the best is been a little bit silly. re non return of the sp, tell me about it lol.....i added Dancing brave to my bet on All Haste, (basically to cover the tax on the bet) making it a double (5 grand double), i nearly always took a price, if allowed to.......but from memory it was 1/12, so decided not too in the hope the price lengthened... |
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Oh dear Aberdonia I should think tax was either 8 or 10 p back then can’t remember which,you are right about the early shows that afternoon he was definitely priced up and around 12s on sounds about right.
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aberdonia. was there sp on the others in that race, ? so if d brave had lost or injured himself in the race , youre bet would have been a loser
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Elisjohn back then the rules were if you couldn’t win you couldn’t lose that seems to have disappeared over time with all the new bookmakers and exchanges popping up.
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elisjohn21 Jul 25 09:45Joined: 15 Jun 03 | Topic/replies: 19,487 | Blogger: elisjohn's blog
aberdonia. was there sp on the others in that race, ? so if d brave had lost or injured himself in the race , youre bet would have been a loser i honestly cant remember on the others, and yes, i know, it was a risk,..couldnt even get out of the office to watch....All Haste did win at 5/6....i couldnt see that race either.....Had to rely on that william hill raceline on the phone..... |
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I would be pretty sure there were no sp returns on any of the horses in that race as unlike now the online firms couldn’t return there own prices the sp came from the racecourse.
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i think the tax may have still been 10 per cent.....from memory i think it may have been reduced to 9 per cent at some point, but i am guessing.
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between el gran senior and dancing brave
el gran senor the outstanding miler and most likely would have been over 10f dancing brave better over 12f imo grevile did say dancing brave was “bomb proof” after the derby some comedian / wide-ass said “he wasn’t jockey proof” Part of the issue imo is that dancing brave didn’t quicken immediately - greville said he was too switched-off / fell asleep in the derby and didn’t quicken as he expected initially - if you watch the eclipse tryptch cruises past dancing brave who’s being rowed along and then once he gets up to speed he flies past her - interesting what the betting in running would have made of that if was available then |
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to be honest he didnt look a no sp shot at about half a mile out in the select
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el gran senor destroyed chief singer at a mile who then went on to destroy others at a mile and shorter - those who chief singer destroyed at shorter became champion sprinters the following year(s)
Lear fan not even close enough to see egs tail a top miler in his own right Rousillon - considered an also- ran in 1984 - impressive champion miler in 1985 dancing braves guineas was not without substance either but to describe a view that egs could have been better than dancing brave as “silly” is a bit silly imo Frankel tbf couldn’t do anymore than smash all his opponents by a furlong but must be one of the worst guineas on record - I think roderick O’Connor won the Irish equivalent and then become a pacemaker - can’t remember maybe one other horse won a listed race or something subsequently |
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dont think weve had a really good quality 1000/2000 in years, ps have we had a really top notch classic at all in the 21 century ?.
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2014 2000 Guineas was pretty good elisjohn but obviously not the quality of those from the 80s
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