Caldwell potter, " youre a wizard Harry "

They've proved people wrong apparently after the huge purchase has won a handicap

Faultless by the horse.

LOL,MJK

They've proved people wrong apparently after the huge purchase has won a handicap


If you could auction a big handicap winner at the Cheltenham festival guaranteed, say 6 years old with very promising early career form, looking a chaser in the making what would it fetch iyo?

Chaser 'in the making'?

Yep, I assume people bidding in the auction weren't planning a hurdling career.

So is his jockey wrong then and got off last time and said the horse isn't as good as everyone thought it was?

They are two different things, some idiots equate the sale price of a horse to guaranteed success. In the real world it doesn't work like that. The big money just improves your chances of landing on a good one. Is he as good as some people thought, probably not. Was he worth the money to the buyers, probably yes.

Cobden typically downplays everything anyway. He is extremely level headed, which is in part why he as good as he is.

Rule of thumb for Cheltenham is to go for the race you have the most chance of winning. So possibly went for this because he's not perceived as good enough for a championship race ?
Or maybe the owners after shelling out so much wanted their day in the sun and it doesn't matter which race you win at the festival , they all taste the same !
You'd be gutted to shell out that much and never get to celebrate at a big festival.

Just pocket money to these owners. And they have enjoyed plenty of success with their purchases. I'll never have hundreds of millions to play with, but I should imagine at that level it's about opportunity cost than the actual cost. It's a rounding error of their net worth.

You don't see elongated threads when someone has a bargain purchase because discussing something negative is far sexier than a boring positive , emphasised by the fact punters generally love reading about a 1.01 back going pear shaped but the mentality means there's never a thought given to the success of the 1.01 layer.

In the sales some you win and some you lose but doubt it'll make a difference between steak vs beans on toast for these connections.

Well done to them today , great win   

It helped the price today anyway Hayden, extremely unexposed horse 1st time up in a handicap, running for one of the best trainers of chasers the country has seen. But he was considered a flop by many people :)

So because the owners are minted they've proved everyone wrong. Total bull. When the horse wins another seven or eight of these then come back and say it. Winning an 80 grand race after paying 750k and saying is is clueless drivel, no matter how much money anyone has. Total nonsense.

7 or 8 £80 grand races, seems a bit excessive, how many are there ,? 

The price is what they were willing to pay to get it, the horses form this year wasn't that bad but definitely took a big step forward today and will hopefully for them continue to do so.

The clueless drivel is that you appear to think that prizemoney is significant to them. Plenty of horses effectively skip a whole season just to improve their chances of winning a race here. There was a £100K bonus on the table for the winner of the Imperial Cup if they won here as well, hardly anyone tried as they don't want to ruin their chances here.

I asked you a question, which you have skipped so far?

If you could auction a big handicap winner at the Cheltenham festival guaranteed, say 6 years old with very promising early career form, looking a chaser in the making what would it fetch iyo?

Mjk , people pay a million £s to try and win a race at the festival .
So for the owners today their purchase would have been worth every penny because that's why they bought him. To win a race on the biggest stage.

Plenty spend a million and never get near the winners enclosure at a big festival.

Given Pumpkin's extensive record of eking out improvement from horses just like this, I wouldn't rule out plenty of future success with it either.

The prize money is immaterial.  It's non existent anyway as winning pointers are going for 300k to run for a 4k hurdle race.

Heck, Bamfords paid 1 million for exactly that. People don't own horses for the prize money.

MJK • March 13, 2025 5:37 PM GMT
So because the owners are minted they've proved everyone wrong

No nobody is saying they've proved everyone wrong ( aside from media guff ) just that worse things happen at sea and any financial loss is all relative.

State Man is good enough to win at least two champion hurdles, and they sat on him to win a handicap hurdle at the festival. Similar to Kopek tomorrow, so people are saying!

and arguably the dual gold cup winner, likely triple by tomorrow evening

Mar 13, 2025 -- 6:51PM, Hayden wrote:

MJK • March 13, 2025 5:37 PM GMTSo because the owners are minted they've proved everyone wrongNo nobody is saying they've proved everyone wrong ( aside from media guff ) just that worse things happen at sea and any financial loss is all relative.

Cider seems to agree that they have. Seeing as they're loaded that is.

Mar 13, 2025 -- 6:44PM, Cider wrote:

The clueless drivel is that you appear to think that prizemoney is significant to them. Plenty of horses effectively skip a whole season just to improve their chances of winning a race here. There was a £100K bonus on the table for the winner of the Imperial Cup if they won here as well, hardly anyone tried as they don't want to ruin their chances here. I asked you a question, which you have skipped so far?If you could auction a big handicap winner at the Cheltenham festival guaranteed, say 6 years old with very promising early career form, looking a chaser in the making what would it fetch iyo?

It's clear no matter what I say you'll say different as you think that winning back 80k on 750k has proved everyone wrong. You seem to know so why don't you enlighten us all.

Mar 13, 2025 -- 6:48PM, Cider wrote:

Given Pumpkin's extensive record of eking out improvement from horses just like this, I wouldn't rule out plenty of future success with it either.

Yes FUTURE. Maybe. That's potentially they MIGHT prove everyone wrong. But they haven't today. That's the point.

You need to define what you mean by 'everyone wrong'.

You appear to think that prize money is critical to the purchasers and owners of jump horses. I'd say you are wrong. If people liked keeping money, earning a profit, they wouldn't go anywhere near racehorse ownership.

What you you estimate JP is down over the years ?

Mar 13, 2025 -- 7:00PM, Cider wrote:

You need to define what you mean by 'everyone wrong'.You appear to think that prize money is critical to the purchasers and owners of jump horses. I'd say you are wrong. If people liked keeping money, earning a profit, they wouldn't go anywhere near racehorse ownership.

I get that. But there's no way they paid that money for the horse with winning a handicap in mind. They clearly thought they were buying a championship horse. The 'proving everyone wrong' thing today just didn't wash with me, and to be fair to Nicholls he wasn't having much of it either. Cobden on the other hand was, but I assume he was just glad to win any race there. If the horse wins the Gold Cup next year then people by all means can laugh at detractors. But today wasn't the day for it.

Cider13 Mar 25 18:00Joined: 29 Aug 02 | Topic/replies: 61,096 | Blogger: Cider's blog
You need to define what you mean by 'everyone wrong'.

You appear to think that prize money is critical to the purchasers and owners of jump horses. I'd say you are wrong. If people liked keeping money, earning a profit, they wouldn't go anywhere near racehorse ownership

Absolutely correct. For them its all about getting in the winners enclosure at Cheltenham, which to be fair to Paul Nicholls has done for them, maybe this has been the plan all along and they have had a decent touch?

I think many on here would be surprised at how much some people will spend on say 10 or 20 stores or point winner etc over a length of time and pay probably more in the long run and then have training fees of the 20 horses and never get a winner at Cheltenham.

The New Lion and this one have both won at the biggest festival and given their owners what they wanted. Fair play they've stuck their money in and been rewarded.

I get that. But there's no way they paid that money for the horse with winning a handicap in mind. They clearly thought they were buying a championship horse. The 'proving everyone wrong' thing today just didn't wash with me, and to be fair to Nicholls he wasn't having much of it either. Cobden on the other hand was, but I assume he was just glad to win any race there. If the horse wins the Gold Cup next year then people by all means can laugh at detractors. But today wasn't the day for it.

No, they thought they were buying a horse with the potential to be a championship horse. About as good as you're going to get at a public sale of jumpers in training. Nothing is guaranteed, as we have seen this week.

I don't use SM, but being what it is, I'm sure there were lots of people hoping and stating that the horse would turn out to be a complete dud. Well, they were wrong. It's just a figure of speech, it doesn't mean everyone was hoping it would turn out to be a dud. Or that literally everyone was wrong.

As a small time owner the prizemoney is nice but it's all about watching your horse running well and hopefully winning. The initial cost of purchasing is gone the moment you transfer the money. Our horse won at Newbury this season and I was breathless post race

£400k spent on a winner of a maiden PTP.

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/sales-reports/bailey-and-derham-strike-for-top-two-lots-including-400000-crystal-ocean-gelding-at-tattersalls-cheltenham-aHc5s1H6A1lO/

Looks well bred and you would hope be decent, but for me it makes the purchase of Caldwell Potter a 6L Grade 1 winner relatively cheap does it not?

Also wondered did Darren Yates ever have a Cheltenham festival winner, has he sold the rest of his string or is he phasing them out gradually?

The one and only, the irony of Darren Yates is he poured a few million in to try and get his day on the sun, including buying the most expensive nh horse sold at public auction , and those grand national horses from elliots and got nothing back. Now he goes and gets one and he sells it before the big day..

I agree oneten that's what I can't understand.

Guessing he has either got sick of the game, needs the money or used to like a bet and been caught up in the affordability checks? Wondered a bit if if he had a disagreement after the Challow as he was talking Champion Hurdle after the win until Dan Skelton slapped him down, which maybe he thought stuff this.

Just didn't make sense when he has actually got what he was wanting, then to sell it straight away before the big day. Did he ever get a festival winner do you know?

No he never got his winner at a big festival. Aintree or chelts.
I assumed the same as you , maybe money issues, I don't know though.
Just seemed an odd time to get out when he finally was so close to what he was chasing..

Where do you think that Caldwell Potter would have finished in the Ryanair if he had run there and jumped like he did yesterday? I would say fourth. He was 5 seconds slower that Fact to File but faster than Jagwar who was carrying a stone less. It was a very encouraging run and Paul Nicholls said that John Hales always wanted to go for the Arkle while Paul himself always thought he was a stayer. Will he run again this season and where? After the fiasco of the Brown Advisory I would not be scared of any other staying novice chasers at Aintree. For next season you might expect the Paddy Power and then, if he progresses, the King George might be a possibility but that is too far away to predict. Like all purchases, every horse is starting equal when lining up for a first flat race, hurdle or chase regardless of price.

Darren Yates made a big announcement that he was getting out of ownership, but I believe he has backtracked since.
Very strange decision to sell The New Lion.
I'm told if you know him, this is how he is.

Racing is always littered with people who appear to have a lot of money but it is hard to know who has and who has not. Terry Ramsden was the most notorious but an Arab Sheikh has just paid off a £300,000 debt to Richard Hannon (or was it a relative who paid?) Frankie Dettori is now bankrupt although I would be surprised if that is due to gambling or buying horses. Some great trainers have retired without a bean. Success and wealth do not always go together in racing. Some people don't get carried away with Cheltenham. Brocade racing are having a great season with 20 winners but have had no runners there. Happy to accept that they are not quite that class and keep winning elsewhere.

Yes sage but brocade have had top flight winners in the oast. Guessing they are bringing younger ones through and hoping one will rise to the top again.

Yes exactly and they have some really good young horses which they have resisted the temptation to overface. Jurancon, Siam Park, Alexei. Sober Glory, Western General all improving horses.

Some nice ones in that list sage. jurancon looks like he might turn out useful.

Going back to the original point of owners wanting to buy a win at the festival, how about Mondo man, running in the triumph today ? 
Just over 500k paid for a horse that had won a tin pot flat race in france in the hope it would go and pick up the triumph , which doesn't look very likely seeing as he remains a maiden over hurdles.

All about what your targets are and how deep your pockets. My objective when a very small owner was to minimise my losses each year so I was always happy to finish last of 2 or 3 if the prize money was good enough. I had 25% of a horse called Jefferies in the 1990s and he won 5 races for us. His biggest prize though was second of 2 finishers in a Grade 2 at Ascot in Dec 1997.

Beginning to love this horse :)

Great horse who is all heart, great talented jockey, great trainer. Always a good combination.

The most expensive purchase from the disposal of an owner who found horse fatality on racecourse too hard to bear. He did not perform to expectation earlier on however, made up at Cheltenham and now here.

How lucky one of his rich owners is ie Sir Alex Ferguson! He won a bundle of petrol currency at Meydan, and now this.

He's in great hands, looks the perfect type to carry on improving for Pumpkin. I agree with Cobden that he wasn't at the Cheltenham level, but still put it all in. As everyone knows, to win at both festivals back to back is a significant achievement.

Interesting to see where he goes next. Paddy Power?

will be left on 155 presumably, so possible. hard tactics to pull off in that type of race. I'd go for charlie hall, betfair

He doesn't look (to me) like he wants the extra distance on Haydock heavy ground, but maybe when fresh. Hennessey would be another possible, but same stamina concern applies. Maybe Charlie Hall then King George? He's a joy to watch wherever.

yes betfair, in fact both races would be ground dependent. Pumpkin keeps saying that he sees him as a stayer tho

Might not be able to resist a handicap mark of 155 though.