Betfair founder Andrew Black reveals radical idea to...

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He should shut his trap he done enough damage to the punting game in my opinion….

Ffs and his usual p1sh

they already have that performance bet shyte and nee bugger bets on it.

I've always advocated sliding scale on e/w returns, you should get better return for 2nd than 4th , maybe 1/3 odds for 2nd, 1/4 odds for 3rd, 1/5 odds for 4th etc etc.

DIE LINKE, have you seen that somewhere already?

Any altering of the each way market /terms would no doubt only be in the bookies favour... IE getting rid of the bad ew races by making them win only, or such other manoeuvres as to eradicate any edge the punter might have

He is so far off if he thinks that's the issue with punting

The issue with punting is restrictions and affordability checks. Horse racing has these and a whole set of other issues. A strong vibrant Tote would be good solution if was outside Uk and Ukgc hence you could bet what you want. Anyone who thinks betting will get better under UKGC is delusional

He should study today's racing cards for a reason why punting horses is on the decline (yesterday's Sandown wasn't much better).

The quicker BHA realises we haven't got enough horses for seven day NH racing the better but I'm not holding my breath.

It just goes to show, people that have big ideas - sometimes only have the one of them!

Combat dwindling interest.................   getting on without having to show yer daily income expenditure and yer inside leg measurement might be the best way forward 1st.

The Management 14 Feb 25 09:25 
It just goes to show, people that have big ideas - sometimes only have the one of them!




Just a great pity that he and the punters did not stick with the first big idea instead of running away and crawling back to the bookmakers.

When you sell something (in the manner it was sold via an IPO) it just goes to the highest bidder. I suppose he knew it would end up with a bookmaker ultimately but he probably didn't imagine they would then deliberately leave it (the exchange element) to wither on the vine.

A bit like Maggie and all her privatisations of public services that had a virtual market monopoly - did she know that foreign investors & foreign governments would end up owning most Britain's infrastructure and leave it to rot while creaming off all of the profits? - Probably.

And the punters just ran back home to their bookmakers shops instead of embracing the exchange. Typical traditional Racing people I suppose.

Most punters just like stealing ricks  abusing offers and stuff like bad ew races not to mention inside info sparrow. Otherwise they would have to be the most intelligent and put in time and effort to be better than other punters.

Could never be bothered with that crumbs off the table attitude, howard.

With respect to Mr Black I think he's being professionally disingenuous here; another betting product will not alleviate the present downward trajectory of horseracing Levy.
I firmly believe a more immediate and positive effect will be to separate horseracing from fobt. Then introduce and enforce a minimum bet acceptance stake (legal) obligation for bookies like in Australia; more horseracing punters (I'll start to bet again) will return for sure meaning more horseracing Levy too. I think a new betting product will not mitigate, reduce AC or increase horseracing Levy until betting restriction.

A "radical idea" might be off course (so called) bookmakers actually taking a bet.

black revolutionised betting for the better. nowadays hed be called a disruptor

notfair had 2 usps, laying and i/r but the pic problem wasnt addressed at all and the mmassive numbers of expensively-acquired customers went away disillusioned, and considerably poorer, but some made a killing

he had no part in ppower taking over and fell out badly with ed wray and others about the way the exchange was heading

waste management invokes the ghost of fatcher with a totally irrelevant and inaccurate assertion

At least he’s trying to offer a solution,but the main issue is lack of horses in training v fixture list.the 2 don’t add up.

Olly bell has a good idea,bet builders in racing,
Nicholls to have a winner,harry skelton to have a winner,horse x to be placed etc in a builder.

All is irrelevant if the product can’t cope with the bets,due to lack of fields.

As for the ipo,he did what all shrewd traders do,he sold at the top,before the crash.

Betbuilder on horseracing? Only a moron or bookie paid stooge could come up with that, why? Dubious incidents eg stall not opening/jockey falling off/unseated tamely; dodgy dealings eg selection taking a walk in the betting or a withdrawal to negatively affecting bet condition eg minimum 5 selections (1/9 shortie on the flat).

I believe any sport with a betbuilder format including football should/ought to be regulated under a different betting/gaming licence like the casinos.

If you bet Skelton to have a winner,he can’t fall off a horse 6 times,your logic dose t add up.

Anything to do with placings can't be trusted, particularly the big name jockeys like Buick who don't bother.

Maybe I was a little too harsh with Black then, mitolo.

I thought Andrew Black talked good sense.

The contingent here can probably eke out an advantage backing or laying place bets. F88k your self interest.

what hes said sounds very much like spread betting. which he did most to crush

i dont know how many would go for it, but it is not impossible if done properly.some shrewdies would no doubt find a way of manipulation/exploitation that would prove profitable

not sure the betting landscape hasnt changed too much and gone away from racing that you wouldnt garner enough interest from the mass market. scoop 6 was big for a time, now an irrelevance

indeed sparrer. aint bertrams fault. and he was against the pc

broken biscuits doesnt know what hes on about. try it brainbox. cant be done. f88k your ignorance

If the total number of bets,stakes,punters is down.
New bets won’t alter that.

People who interact with the sport and bet,will bet on any system offered,new bets won’t increase this.
Getting more people to get involved with racing is the answer,but bets like bet builders might be a small part in getting them to stay involved.or blacks alternative ew system.

Racing by hook or by crook does enter people’s lives,day out,stag do,works trip.evade student days,concerts.

So racing gets a regular supply of new customers,it’s up to racing to keep them.

Feb 14, 2025 -- 5:22PM, mitolo wrote:

indeed sparrer. aint bertrams fault. and he was against the pcbroken biscuits doesnt know what hes on about. try it brainbox. cant be done. f88k your ignorance

If you are claiming an idiot with no interest in racing cannot identify a race that is good for EW betting - because of the transparency of betfair - you are the bigger idiot.

mitolo14 Feb 25 16:28Joined: 13 Apr 21 | Topic/replies: 5,371 | Blogger: mitolo's blog
black revolutionised betting for the better. nowadays hed be called a disruptor

Did he feck! - they absolutely had the opportunity, the concept and the product to do that - and he utterly failed! Kudos to him for selling up at a price that implied he had succeeded or that it could be done - but getting a a massive payday doesn't alter the fact that he utterly failed.

This is evidenced by the fact that in the industry you are claiming he disrupted and revolutionised - there are now more "bookmakers" out there than there have ever been before - and they are making more money, from more customers, than ever before. It's disrupted nothing (mostly because they couldn't come up with a charging model that worked).

Not saying BF didn't revolutionise betting for the people that actually use the product btw, you, me everybody on here - just that given the incredible potential of the concept - it's actually hard to imagine how they failed to get everybody to adopt it, so as to completely revolutionise & disrupt the whole industry.

But they didn't!

unitedbiscuits Joined: 27 Jan 02
Replies: 2011814 Feb 25 17:28 
Feb 14, 2025 -- 5:22PM, mitolo wrote:

indeed sparrer. aint bertrams fault. and he was against the pcbroken biscuits doesnt know what hes on about. try it brainbox. cant be done. f88k your ignorance


If you are claiming an idiot with no interest in racing cannot identify a race that is good for EW betting - because of the transparency of betfair - you are the bigger idiot


i must be. dont understand what you are on about



he did revolutinise betting, otherwise we wouldnt be here. the fact there are more bookmakers is for different reasons; deregulation, change of tax policy and foreign firms among them

they had to chop their margins to compete and there was better value all round because of this

they starting offering ealry prices

they offered fptp

the odds on football increased massively from the usual ceiling of 100/1 to the famous 5000/1 lester, which wouldnt have been half that otherwise

he gave up control after 15 years, ishk because he wanted to concentrate on his breeding operation, which had always been a passion, and he used the payday to fund it. the fact notfair took a wrong turn is not his doing. and he never had enough control anyway, even if hed remained. he is dead against whats happened but hes too diplomatic to say so and is famously reticent about washing his laundry in public and dislikes confrontation

he didnt 'fail utterly'

In his guest column in the post.

He says,ew betting is loved by the bookies,because mug punters do it.

But haven’t the bookies been saying for years,that they lose on ew.

Which is it,Richard birch in his column in the outlook,says many times,he’s had 100 ew at 7/2 etc.

I don’t think getting better returns on a 2nd over a 4th will change the betting landscape,given the lesser number of races that qualify for ew 3/4 places.

A factor for the dwindling interest could be contributed to the amount of horses that drift alarmingly of the exchange he founded and run accordingly without any questions been asked.

Andrew Black can feck off. Ante-post betting was much more enjoyable before his betfair shoite.

I think it's too intellectual, complicated and intangible for the masses.  Betfred are hardly likely to change the placepot either since they bet in it en masse with inside knowledge.

If you want a leaderboard with points for performance, it's basically Fantasy Football dressed up.  I like Fantasy Games, but it's a much smaller market than standard betting.

can't have that jimnast. It never happened before Betfair of course    Clyde spot-on.  Good post from Mitolo regarding IR. Almost live internet pics should have been set up from day one.

Clydebank, can you explain your comment about Betfred please?

Imagine a GN sweepstake with 40 runners.  The Tote has 40 picks and picks all 40 runners as it knows what it has already picked (the inside knowledge).  The 40 individual punters don't.  37% of the runners aren't picked at all.  When one of those 37% win the Tote scoops the whole pot.  When one of the other 63% win the punters have to share the pot.

What does any of that have to do with Betfred?

It doesn't really matter who owns it. The point CB29 is making is still valid.

So not knowing the subject does not matter then TM?

Betfred own the Tote. 

Imagine a GN sweepstake with 40 runners.  BETFRED has 40 picks and picks all 40 runners as it knows what it has already picked (the inside knowledge).  The 40 individual punters don't.  37% of the runners aren't picked at all.  When one of those 37% win BETFRED scoops the whole pot.  When one of the other 63% win the punters have to share the pot.

They sold it in Oct 2019 Clydebank!! HTH

CagliariG15 Feb 25 12:26Joined: 16 Jul 22 | Topic/replies: 10,542 | Blogger: CagliariG's blog
So not knowing the subject does not matter then TM?

Black knows the subject - his "idea" is still hopeless - and calling it "radical" is a joke. As mitolo pointed out betting on something with a sliding scale of returns based on performance is pretty much what Spread Betting did - there is probably a reason nobody significantly operating in that space anymore!

It shouldn't be allowed but the regulator is not very smart or knowledgeable. Showed how lacking in that department they were by being pivotal in the FootbaIl Index Collapse.  I doubt Andrew Rhodes knows how to work out an overround.  He might not even know what one is.

So they did Cag.  The Tote then.  Apologies to Betfred

I agree regarding Blacks idea, it was Clyebanks comments about being too intellectual and complicated for the masses I was questioning, imo he should rethink that given his own ignorance?

Whether Betfred still owns the Tote or not makes no difference to the point I'm making.  It only makes a difference to Betfred.  You are pretty ignorant if you can't grasp that

I grasped the fact you were making a hypothetical which is pretty pointless, being critical of the masses who probably know that you are 6 years out of date hardly makes you credible.

In a hypothetical scenario who owns the Tote has zero relevance.

Agreed, just like your hypothetical!! Suggest you leave it at that tbh?

Showing your ignorance again there Cag

Whatever you say Clydebank, for someone who thinks they are intellectually superior to the masses you must be correct so 6 years has no meaning, well done!!

The point is that the Tote is using privileged insider information betting in it's placepot pool.  It doesn't take the knowledge that Betfred sold The Tote to work that out.  AFAIK I was the person that first bought it to the HR forum's attention.  But then you probably know that.  You just can't resist getting in a personal dig.

Cagliari has the manner of a wild boar tbh….imo

isn't this  just a version of Americans  WIN,PLACE and SHOW ?

Not the worst idea, my horses always lose by a nose so I would win a lot more.

Think it’s worse for the punter,you have 3 chances to be placed to get a set amount.so more for 2nd and less for 3rd and 4th appeals less not more surely.

Plus bookies do 5/6 places. So get your money back on these,

It would ruin ew betting.

extra places are not good for punters unless you are getting 3 of them in a 6 runner race, which are worth doing almost blind. 7 runners often a good idea also

This is where I do not get the attitude about ew mitolo, you have to ask what more do modern day punters want. Back to the days of 1/4 in 16 runner handicaps 1st 4 reduced to 3 etc, madness, they have never had it so good yet the "Oldies" hark back to the bad old days.

Don't forget the mooted 1/6 a place big Mac challenged, makes you wonder if they and the younger contingent have a clue about how much better off they are.

Why are extra places not good for punters,presume lower prices ,but getting 6 chances to not lose can only be good.so what if you get less when you win.

its the ew terms. getting 1/5 5 places in a 20 runner hcap and 6 places 28 runners 1/5 isnt a concession

Extra places here on the exchange markets are good enough for me.

Current day concessions whether it be extra places or something else are there to be exploited , problem with 98% of the punters today is to expect everything to fall on their lap to suit their needs , instead of looking for ways to exploit EVERY concession but first off actually calculating whether the concession actually exists.

To take the opportunities that exist these days it'd require punters to do something different outside the norm which unfortunately would rule out the vast majority , always amazes me that punters don't need bookmakers AND the exchange for a variety of reasons and the refusal to use one or the other would make them either one dimensional or just plain naive in my mind.

Come on guys you've honestly NEVER had it so good , just adapt   

if you were able to take advantage of what is supposedly avaialble you would be in with a good chance but you cant

the migration to online has resulted in strangulation for many, even mugs like me. one account left and its the only one in front. go figure

shops are there but by the time ive worked out what i want to do its too late as i dont get up until about now and the nearest shop is a mile away