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Premium Charge is dead
Premium Charge is dead
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Replies: 363
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CagliariG 19 Dec 24 22:37
Strange that records show this account started in 2018 Shafter? pmsl..ewe are thicker than mandingo's c0ck. |
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in running liquidity levels are now at shocking levels imv...
for some races at least... in all honesty i think the Expert Fee will become irrelevant for 99.99999% of us soon anyway coz there will be nowt to bet on horse racing in running wise... end of the jumps season it'll be Betfair and jamee the only ones playing imv. |
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hibs c'mon man..theres £2 in some boxes last 2f.
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CagliariG 19 Dec 24 22:30
ROFL, as genuine as you gas bill YSDC!!! Buy a bed and use it, if your arse bones are suffering too much send me the bill!! HTH  |
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i'm finally beat Mr.Hunt..
it's time to start winding down for me now... can't compete with drone folk and folk like jamee i'm afraid... as the song says... you've got to know when to fold it. |
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Oh you’ll be here a while yet hibb….
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if i could do the Family Fortunes 'wrong answer' sound i would aceform.
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Uhht, Uurrhh
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XMW6Z_Oq38
here swifty.  |
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Since they first posted the Expert Fee FAQs they've added a couple of new sections which help to clarify how it will work, in particular the 2nd new section shows what the starting Buffer will be.
https://support.betfair.com/app/answers/detail/expert-fee-faqs . My account is losing across its lifetime. Can I qualify? In order to incur the Expert Fee, your account will need to be in lifetime profit. We will still show your Expert Fee rate based on your Last 52-Week Gross P&L, but if you account is not in profit over the lifetime you will have a buffer and will not be eligible to pay the Fee. I have built up a large Premium Charge buffer over time. Will it be lost? In order to transition smoothly onto the Expert Fee, we will reference the last time that you incurred Premium Charge and use your activity since this point in order to calculate your new Buffer at the time that the Expert Fee takes effect on 6th Jan 2025. If you have never incurred the charge, then lifetime data will be used to calculate the Buffer. So, if you last incurred Premium Charge in 2023, we will calculate your Buffer as: Gross P&L Since Last Charge = £100,000 Commission Generated Since Last Charge = £60,000 Current Expert Fee Rate = 20% New Buffer = £60,000 / 0.2 - £100,000 = £200,000 Note for a customer on the 40% rate, their Buffer would be £60,000 / 0.4 - £100,000 = £50,000 |
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The way I read that, if the Buffer is indeed based on lifetime Commission Generated vs Gross P&L then that would be great news and everything else I've said on this thread can be safely ignored
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If I won 60 k on a Tote jackpot , would that be included in my profit figures and be subject to the charges ?
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no, tote bets and sportsbook bets nothing to do with PC or EF.
So did you?! |
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A Long time ago I won over !00K on a Newmarket Jackpot. Noy had a single notable pick up for several years, though the poor carryovers mean I
have far fewer attempts. |
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@happyhibby
"if Betfair tweaked their BSP procedure i think it would help those folk who don't want to use a BOT but don't want to sit there event after event inputting prices or clicking on Gruss..." I don't follow sorry - what do you mean? |
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the whole point of commission churning is having lots of bets (probably on stuff you know nowt about) and creating lots of commission/implied commission without making much of a profit/loss...
i'm sure folk do/did that using a BOT... the BSP facility could be made better so that you can do something like this... back lots of markets where the prices are around the 1.9 / 2.1 mark... which you would think would result in a small loss or profit but create decent commission levels... BSP allows you to back at MINIMUM odds but not MAXIMUM odds... if it allowed both then you could do the 1.9 / 2.1 thingy... and it would also allow you to load up without having to go through markets 'as they happen' which most folk don't have i would suggest... i was just thinking out loud tbh longbridge... and i'm not even sure it's possible (but i think it is)... but that was my thinking. |
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Anything at BSP should work - if it's close to the fair price (and it demonstrably is) then you should be neutral pre-commission.
As for the maximum as well as minimum thing - every time I work through the detailed workings BSP examples I have to read them three times to get them straight in my head, so probably not up for that on a Sunday afternoon, but an interesting thought whether applying both a minimum and maximum could be done. |
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like i say it was a 'thinking out loud' exercise when looking at 'commission churning' scenarios longbridge...
especially for those who wouldn't trust a BOT to do the inputting of bets for them. |
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problem with churning is..ewe need to lose £10,000 and win £10,000 to churn and save £250 PC.
it isnt easy. |
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oh i agree Mr.Hunt...
was just something i thought about could help with the Expert Fee... too much messing about for me tbh. |
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So is this Wednesday the final weekly payment of Premium Charge?
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My interpretation of it is that the Expert Fee model kicks in on 6th Jan.
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Darlo Bantam 30 Dec 24 01:09
So is this Wednesday the final weekly payment of Premium Charge? has to be next wed 6th for this weeks business. |
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Darlo Bantam 30 Dec 24 01:09
So is this Wednesday the final weekly payment of Premium Charge? has to be next wed 8th for this weeks business. |
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expert fee begins 6th.
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My take is this week is still on the old structure so a PC payment will be taken weds 8th as usual. EF starts from 6th Jan with first payment to be taken on 13th.
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This was posted on the Bet Angel forum:
Better off (most to least) An existing PC payer who makes consistently less than £25k gross per year is much better off because they will no longer pay any charge. Those will a lifetime bank of winnings who have lost in the last 52 weeks but return to profit will be much better off because EF only takes the last 52 weeks into account. An existing 50% or 60% PC payer is much better off due to the scrapping of the higher rates. An existing 40% PC payer who makes consistently less than £100k gross per year is much better off because they will now only ever pay 20%. An existing 40% PC payer who flirts around £100k gross per year is somewhat better off because they will sometimes pay 20% and sometimes pay 40%. An existing 20% PC payer who flirts around £25k gross per year is somewhat better off because they will sometimes pay 20% and sometimes pay nothing. Worse off (most to least) Those with a lifetime bank of losses who are now consistently profitable above £25k gross will be much worse off (if they reach a lifetime gross profit position) because EF only takes the last 52 weeks into account. An existing 20% PC payer who makes consistently more than £100k gross per year (these will be very rare) is much worse off because they will now only ever pay 40%. An existing 40% PC payer who consistently makes more than £100k gross per year is a little worse off due to the reduction in implied commission rate from 3% to 2.5%. An existing 20% PC payer who makes consistently between £25k and £100k gross per year is is a little worse off due to the reduction in implied commission rate from 3% to 2.5%. |
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Straw poll. Better off or worse off?
I'm worse off due to the reduced implied commission rate.  |
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Yep. Need a poll
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could be worse jamee...
you could be selling programmes outside Ibrox for a living. |
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Those with a lifetime bank of losses who are now consistently profitable above £25k gross will be much worse off (if they reach a lifetime gross profit position) because EF only takes the last 52 weeks into account.
Not sure that is correct. At least, according to this they would have built up a large Buffer:- ----- https://support.betfair.com/app/answers/detail/expert-fee-faqs . I have built up a large Premium Charge buffer over time. Will it be lost? In order to transition smoothly onto the Expert Fee, we will reference the last time that you incurred Premium Charge and use your activity since this point in order to calculate your new Buffer at the time that the Expert Fee takes effect on 6th Jan 2025. If you have never incurred the charge, then lifetime data will be used to calculate the Buffer. So, if you last incurred Premium Charge in 2023, we will calculate your Buffer as: Gross P&L Since Last Charge = £100,000 Commission Generated Since Last Charge = £60,000 Current Expert Fee Rate = 20% New Buffer = £60,000 / 0.2 - £100,000 = £200,000 Note for a customer on the 40% rate, their Buffer would be £60,000 / 0.4 - £100,000 = £50,000 |
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Ok, if they reach a lifetime gross profit position (above 25k?) then they would start to become liable so that might be true indeed.
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Rico-Dangleflaps 30 Dec 24 13:50
Darlo Bantam 30 Dec 24 01:09 So is this Wednesday the final weekly payment of Premium Charge? has to be next wed 8th for this weeks business. Rico-Dangleflaps 30 Dec 24 13:50 expert fee begins 6th. jamee1 30 Dec 24 14:15 My take is this week is still on the old structure so a PC payment will be taken weds 8th as usual. EF starts from 6th Jan with first payment to be taken on 13th.  |
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sew..if new fee is taken from last 52 weeks rolling..lets say in a weeks time your last 52 weeks is +£80,000..your expert fee is 20% if a winning week.
the week after you lose £50,000..your last 52 weeks is still +£30,000 the next week you win £1000 you still pay £200. so no £50,000 buffer. unless im rong. |
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sew you'd still need to be under 20% charges before PC deduction..assumed new structure would scrap the buffer scenario..wonder what PP are getting from the new cistern.
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Yes. Think you and other replies are correct.
The portal getting removed for a day threw me out and got me hopeful there was a short crossover period. |
