Small trainer- south of England.

Flat trainer I should have added.

Daniel & Claire Kubler - more than a dozen TBF after starting with a string of 7 or so.

They know the time of day and will continue to rise towards the top IMO

Aint Nobody got less than a Dozen Horses.

Sheena West does well with cheap horses and is in the South of England  Sussex

Adam West, OK, he's got more than 12 horses now, but top trainer at both codes.

Warwick Davis

Michael Blake

https://www.britishhorseracing.com/racing/participants/trainers/trainers-map/

Blake averages about a winner and a half a season

Last year he ran exactly ten horses on the Flat, he won with three of them - Under The Twilight (3 wins), Mr Zee (3) & Eagle Court (1)

Would appear fit blue heaven's criteria exactly.

He's only managed to win with Under The Twilight so far this year on the Flat, but did so off a career high mark, and from just handful of runners over jumps so far this season, two wins from Clearance.

not too bad then when you delve, tbh rarely spot his name on the racecard.

trains a horse for pottsy if my intuition is correct

%        winners / horses    total earnings    £1 Stake    best in category    rpr
2yo AW    0    0    —    0    0/0    —    0.00    —    —
2yo turf    0    1    0    0    0/1    —    -1.00    Snow Eagle    —
3yo AW    1    10    10    1    1/4    £3,858    +13.00    High Class Affair    61
3yo turf    0    15    0    0    0/5    £2,091    -15.00    Happy Chandler    62
4yo+ AW    8    110    7    19    4/20    £61,354    -44.17    Love Dreams    86
4yo+ turf    14    133    11    26    6/18    £119,681    +22.50    Under The Twilight    96
TOTAL    23    269    9    46    9/24    £186,983    -24.67    Under The Twilight    96

GEORGE I was looking at his jumps stats, apologies, I can remember those winners so should've clicked.

* and should've clicked on his flat stats!

https://www.racingpost.com/profile/trainer/14051/michael-blake

Thanks for all the information. Blake’s stats do stand up well.

Pat Chamings & Luke Dace also seem to do well from memory with very limited resources but stats don’t necessarily support that.

Rachel Cook & John Bridger
Trainer details

    Licence/Permit Type: Combined
    Training Since: 2023
    Number of Horses in Training: 12
    County: Hampshire
    flat non-runner rate: 2.22%

Championships

British Flat
Rank: 151
Wins: 11
Number of Prizes: 48
Runners: 116
Total Prize Money: £106,168.66

Don't check the stats but I always think Michael Blake does well with what he has got.

Blake is probably a little too far from me & in the opposite direction of where I’d like to be but Sheena West is a very good shout, her stats under both codes are good with moderate horses. She also seems to refresh her stock quite often & doesn’t keep older or hopeless horses running for the sake of it.

can i ask you a q, have you had horses in a yard before?

Sep 22, 2024 -- 12:49AM, chavman wrote:

trains a horse for pottsy if my intuition is correct

No longer (was Eagle Court but presumably sold on when he decided enough was enough earlier this year).

Elise,

I’ve visited various yards over the years as a guest or on open days but I’ve never owned a horse in training either in a syndicate or in my own right thus far.

my advice for what it's worth is put stats low on the list if you have an average animal, write the money off and focus on your enjoyment

choose a trainer you will have fun with that makes you feel valued, gives you their time and helps you understand the sport from another direction, one that puts a breakfast on the table and spends hours talking about their horse past and present, or their riding career, horse welfare, vets & one that takes you along to the sales or lets you drop in for a coffee anytime you feel like it

i had most enjoyment not from the biggest yards or at the major meetings / tracks (and i had some good horses) but having a day out with a trainer i considered a friend and that made my experiences more memorable, without doubt the two things that came through were their personality (or their ast trainer) and that of the staff that looked after the horses

the value for your investment will be the memories and the insight they give you and therefore it might not be a winner that ticks the box

Thank you. all agreed. I will drop you a private message.

That French guy now at Epsom…Hervé Villechaize

I agree with most of what Elise says. The benefit of having a horse (or a share in one) with a bigger trainer is that you get a lot of very decent info (occasionally mixed with undue pessimism) about other horses in the yard. A share still gives you a feeling of being part of the team without the very high cost nowadays of owning a whole horse. The last 4 I owned (all jumpers) from 10-25% of all won at least twice but still cost quite a lot more in annual fees than the prize money earned. Good luck Blue Heaven if you take the plunge.

elg, you're watching the love boat not itv racing

Edward Smyth-Osbourne
I think he only has a handful of horses but his training of Noodle Mission and getting one a mark after the obligatory 3 runs before landing a nice little touch at Salisbury (Probert booked) tells me this guy is proper Horseman. On top of that he's seems like a really nice guy.

I would put convenience at the top of your list , I owned 2 foals as part of a small syndicate . One sold for pointing and one raced till 11 or so winning four times . Trainer was local so saw gallops many times , summer garden party , even galloped my own steed up his gallops . Plus he was regularly in my local . Profitablility was irrelevant but experience treasured .

Charlie Wallace.

Pick the best jumps trainer in your area, and put your Flat horse in training with them. They'll be grateful for your business during the summer, and at that time of year you can enjoy all the benefits of being an owner in a yard where there won't be many other horses competing for attention. You'll get that personal touch that you're evidently looking for. At the same time you can enjoy the advantage of the horse being under the care of a top trainer. One benefit of being in a big yard is that they tend to still train winners even when they're out of form. That's how they stay at the top.

Small yards can look good when they're in form, but they can suddenly get a virus and simply disappear without a trace.

Having said that, if you're sure you want to go for a small yard, I would recommend Michael Blake too. He does train on your side of Bath - it's not that far. He and his wife are friendly and he always seems to be able to find a winner from somewhere. He's good.

dan steele

screaming, do you really think that Paul Nicholls or Nicky Henderson are training the flat horses? It will be an assistant or family member calling the shots there. They still have the training facilities though so it might be a good idea.

Jeepers , I wouldn't let some of the names on this list train a horse of mine fir free.... most are shocking suggestions imo .

Also screamings suggestion a bit naive and stupid, sorry.  If a jumps trainer wanted flat horses to train they'd already have them.
  Who wants one of a type to train ? Logistically and practically it wouldn't work. You can't train one horse on its own.

Well, this is the only horse I've ever owned - I bought it for £3,000 as a yearling, and I had no problem getting Martin Pipe to train it for the Flat. Just went up and asked him one afternoon at Newton Abbot:

https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/501379/light-on-the-waves/form

I'm sure Pipe was fully involved in the training of the horse. He used to initiate long and intense phone calls where he would read out the incoming declarations for races the horse was entered in, and we would decide which one to go for. And I was always made to feel important when my girlfriend and I visited Pond House, being invited into Mr and Mrs Pipe's lounge for snacks. The lounge was like a giant conservatory, with the tail of their helicopter subtly visible to the side, jutting out of its hangar. Just to remind visiting owners what kind of an operation they were paying for.

Look, maybe you're right, I'm naive, and it really was the assistant doing the hard work, but as Pipe's assistants at the time included people like Gordon Elliott, it's no bad thing. You don't get that sort of back-up in twelve-horse yards.

sageform23 Sep 24 10:39Joined: 15 Jun 01 | Topic/replies: 27,616 | Blogger: sageform's blog
screaming, do you really think that Paul Nicholls or Nicky Henderson are training the flat horses? It will be an assistant or family member calling the shots there. They still have the training facilities though so it might be a good idea.

Believe it or not sage they most certainly do.

Screaming, fair play to you and well done. I remember you telling us the story before on the forum and I'm pleased for you.

However Pipey also had horses running on the flat as well so it wasn't a case of having 1 flat horse and 200 jumpers.  I remember him having royal ascot hcp winners so he knew the time of day with his flat horses.

N J Henderson has had plenty of Royal Ascot winners too. Lucinda Russell is having a tremendous time on the Flat. Then there's W Greatrex's 2yos. The late G W Richards (Penrith) used to say that you always ought to have a few 2yos around the place. In fact, I have a theory that 2yos are better off being trained in jumping yards, because they learn how to behave from the older, placid geldings around them.

I mean, when my filly was out of training, I was able to handle her at home no problem. I'm not sure I could have done that with a thoroughbred filly who'd been brought up with a bunch of other 2yos squealing and rearing every time one of them feels a gust of wind.

Screaming, I probably misread the Ops / your post.  Apologies as I thought the point someone was making was to be the only flat horse in a stable full of jumpers - which wouldn't work .

The OP is looking for a small trainer with no more than a dozen horses based in the South. So Oneten, would you care to give us your informed and expert opinion on which Trainer the OP should use?

There are actually very few jumping stables which have no Flat runners: Henry Daly, Venetia Williams, off the top of my head.

As a one-horse owner, I found that by giving a top jumping yard something to keep them occupied during the summer, you were able to have all the experience of being an owner at the top level, while also enjoying being the centre of attention.

Whippin, do I sense sarcasm in your tone ? 

Sorry, but no I wouldn't.  Some of what I know about the - and I put them in inverted commas as they cant really be called "trainers" who have been put forward I would not feel comfortable putting on an open forum for people I dont know.
 
But I wouldn't want a horse trained by a trainer that doesn't necessarily know what they are doing and if a trainer has less tan 10 horses they don't know what they are doing.
If you don't have enough horses in a yard it is very hard to do the job properly, just based on the economies of scale.

Each horse is an individual, and its a bit like when sending your children to school, it is about matching the horse with a yard that will suit its mentality and training requirements .

if a trainer has less tan 10 horses they don't know what they are doing

Quire simply one of the most stupidest things I've ever read on this forum! 

Paul Nicholls started his training operation at Manor Farm, Ditcheat, in stables rented from local dairy farmer Paul Barber in October 1991. At that time, he began with eight horses.

Obviously, Paul didn't and still doesn't know what he's doing. lol

We have a saying in horses that it costs the same to keep a good one as it does a bad one. 

Its the same with trainers - yes a decent one who trains 70 winners a year might be a few £s/week dearer than joe bloggs who trains 2 winners a year, but with the decent trainer they have a winning formula and you will be getting winners whereas the trainer that has 2 winners a year doesn't have a successful regime to follow. Winners breed winners.

As an example, on the economies of scale if you are in a bigger yard, the vet will be in there every day, so if your horse has a niggle or requires something then it just costs a fraction of what it costs if you are a small yard and have to call the vet out for just one horse.  As an example , a bigger yard will do bloods before running, whereas a smaller yard the cost would be prohibitive.

Possible to train good wnrs without a big string.
Norton's Coin,don't think his trainer had many,did he?

No Whippin, you're being a fool for the sake of it. 
Most trainers start off with sub 10 horses except for those that inherit yards. 
But the list of sub 10 horse trainers proposed are pretty much all perennial losers who have trained unsuccessfully for many years - hence why they have no horses.  If they were any good and going anywhere they would have burgeoning yards. Fact.

Whipping , these are PNicholls stats when he started training. Winners and runners increasing year on year because he knew what he was doing.  He will have had less than 10 horses for less than 1 season, the same with Archie watson, George Boughey etc etc
A bit different to the trainers proposed on this list - trainer of less than 10 horses...

1997-98    82    302    27    43    40    29    £611,276    +30.62
1996-97    56    278    20    53    35    29    £354,158    -74.74
1995-96    53    264    20    52    29    29    £319,737    -47.58
1994-95    28    168    17    26    16    17    £163,596    -29.03
1993-94    29    164    18    25    21    16    £164,440    -16.04
1992-93    20    131    15    19    21    8    £82,411             -49.32
1991-92    10    100    10    16    13    10    £48,704             -47.54

Lucinda Russell is having a tremendous time on the Flat.

A claim that is doing Dain Ma Nut In, more analysis needed on that one imo.

She hasn't done much with the Thistle Bloodstock horses she got from Jim Goldie, for example?

Any small trainer can come across a top class horse but the results have to keep improving year on year to keep the supply of top class material coming in. There is a big difference between running an ex flat horse on the flat as Nicholls and Henderson do but when did they last enter an unraced horse on the flat? Paul Nicholls had a few to give Megan a chance to train for a couple of seasons but they are mostly stayers which were bought for hurdling that go back to the flat. Same with willie Mullins. And Paul removes all of the horses from Ditcheat once a year to steam clean etc. so any runners are likely to be coming from a satellite yard.

Penzance, yes you are quite correct, it is possible to train winners without a big string. But you need to have other horses to work with. 

Going back to a previous poster - this is the point I was trying to make, that if you have a yard of 3 mile chasers and someone offers you a 5f horse , what are you going to work it with ?  It wont fit into your work programme.

Gavin Cromwell & Henry de Bromhead, whilst not having great strike rates, they are winning decent races. Noel Meade too.

Gordon Elliott took on a batch of 2YOs a while back but not sure too much came of it?

^ on the Flat is

^ on the Flat that is

George I think its easier training flat horses.  Less injuries,  faster results and better prize money.  If you can train you can train, makes no difference which code.

Well done, nothing like a little aftertiming on a Monday! Because of course you knew those trainers mentioned would all prove a success at the game. Now, give us a trainer who only has a small string but can train and would train a lot more if given the amo. I've given mine.

*more winners

Apparently Nick Littmoden is in France

Here is one best to avoid.

As it was a few years ago I confirmed all the results and prices with the Racing Post website.

A bunch of guys who used to drink at The Engineer pub in Brighton (who won the RUK pub of the year in the day.)

They formed a racing syndicate and got a horse called Mount Benger and had Jim Best to train it as his stables were only a few miles away on the old Lewes racecourse.

Things started out well with the trainer informing the leader of the syndicate about the well being of the horse and where and when he expected it to win!

The first race was at Folkestone and the jockey booked was a certain A P Mc Coy it went off at 9/4 fav and won by 10 l.

The horse won its next race by 5 l at even money and in the next 3 races it came 2nd twice.

However when it was due to run at Chepstow Brighton jockey Mattie Batchelor was booked and the tissue price the night before was 5/1.

Jim informed the syndicate to back the horse at 5/1 as soon as the shops opened.

It was late in the morning when it was announced that A P Mc Coy was going to take the ride as apparently Matties car had broken down and he was unable to get to Chepstow.

The bookmakers took fright of a suspected Jim Best 'special' and it shortened to 1/2 eventually winning by 10 lenghts at 8/15.

Jim explained that the horse was now well exposed and he would find another for them and he bought it back for what they paid for it and he sold it 2 days later to owners with Dai Williams at a massive profit for Mr Best.

The horse won its next 2 out 3 races for Dai Williams.

As everyone will know 6 years later Mr Best was warned off for 6 months for instructing his jockey Paul John not to win on two occasions.

The syndicate obtained another horse but had Brighton (Falmer) trainer Sheena West look after it.

Wondersobright will be surprised at me for agreeing with him on something!!!, but Daniel Steele is a great suggestion, particularly GIVEN THE QUESTION. He can train winners, he just needs more ammunition, and proper gallops.

KennethTurrell - some of the best stories could be the best stories on here.

I sometimes hate these threads, because if you disagree with someone's opinion then you get attacked,  but I'm sorry Blackbarn I beg to differ.
How can you say say Daniel steele is a great suggestion ? Yes, she has written some very popular novels but over jumps only had 10 winners over 13 years. That averages out at less than 1 winner a year. His flat stats are only marginally better, 2.5 winners a year.
Not the stats of a good trainer are they ?

Madness. Best thing he could do is pack it up because he's definitely not a trainer.

Amanda Perrett is based in the south and she can't have more than half a dozen horses these days .....

I would strongly recommend Sheena West who trains near Falmer East Sussex. Her fees are very reasonable, she's dual purpose and will get the best out of often,moderate horses. Give her a good horse and you can win at Cheltenham [which she has].

Sounds like Lenny B Mr Turrell.