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01 Sep 24
19:08
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Date Joined:
05 Oct 11
Just been having a close look at the records of a few horses around the time, and just before, I became interested. Nijinsky came just before. I have watched the video and seen the clips that are out there. Most of them just show him winning very easily, hardly coming off the bridle. I just wonder has anyone over the years actually questioned what he was beating? Was it very much style over substance? Maybe he got a pass as a Triple Crown winner? Starting with a shocking Dewhurst it's hard to argue that all the major races he won were anything other than pretty ordinary renewals. Excuses were made for his last two defeats, but he did confirm Derby form with Gyr in the Arc. You would have thought even a very much below par version should have taken care of Lorenzaccio in the Champion Stakes. In his wins he treated some good horses with obvious contempt, but it's hard to think of too many very good one's. The likes of Meadowville, Blakeney, Sassafras and Stintino etc. were clearly no worldbeaters. Did he also get fortunate with the ground? He never raced on anything worse than good. With his american pedigree that probably wasn't a disadvantage.
All in all I'm not surprised that even with his four successive defeats, Piggott may have preferred Sir Ivor.
All in all I'm not surprised that even with his four successive defeats, Piggott may have preferred Sir Ivor.
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Its a toughie.
Nijinsky was being pushed more for the record of winning of Triple crown even after getting ringworm. If emotion was taken out of it he probably would gone for the Champion and retired unbeaten |
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Sassafras the Arc winner in 1970.
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Agree with cacique , campaigned for the triple crown left little in the tank for to take on Lorenzaccio and Sassafras as it turned out.
As cacique correctly states in my view a different campaign could have easily have meant winning the Champion stakes and the Arc. I do remember the Lester interview when he stated Sir Ivor would be the best he'd ridden when pushed for an answer. |
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Interesting to hear about those horses he beat which makes me wonder Different Drum as to how you rate Frankel considering the horses he beat.
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He was bought for $84,000 (the equivalent of about $645,000 today) and shipped back to Ballydoyle. It was Engelhard’s wife, Jane who named him after Vaslav Nijinsky, the famous ballet dancer, who had declared on his deathbed, 18 years earlier, that he would return one day reincarnated as a horse. The dancer’s widow, Romola, would subsequently place bets of £25 on him every time he raced.
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Nijinsky also never displayed his ability to act on soft ground. (Winning all his races on firm going) Brigadier Gerard had a better racing record of 17 wins from 18starts,including 15 race wins (A British racing record) in a row. However Brigadier was the greatest horse over the distance of a mile so it is unfair to compare him with Nijinsky. Timeform gave Nijinsky a rating of 138, below even VaguelyNoble, Shergar and Dancing Brave. (All awarded rating of 140) However many racing experts deny he was inferior to them. Sea Bird, Ribot and Mill Reef were given ratings of 145,142 and 141 respectively. Vaguely Noble had given only one truly super performance as a three year old in the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe where he beat Sir Ivor. To place him better than Nijinsky he had to be tested in the English classics. Although Shergar had won the Epsom Derby by 10 lengths he was unable to win the Leger in addition to his other victories. Either Shergar had not been able to stay the gruelling leger distance or he was simply past his peak for the season.
Nijinsky won the Leger after an attack of ringworm and came within a head of winning the Arc. That placed Nijinsky’s achievements ahead of Shergar. However I think racing historians are correct in rating Dancing Brave superior as a middle distance horse. The horses he beat like Bering and Shahrastani had not been faced by Nijinsky. (Although I believe Nijinsky would have outstayed him in the Leger). In the end to be rated only below Sea Bird, Ribot, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave amongst the great middle-distance horses (Very marginally behind) can never deny Nijinsky the title of a superhorse. In 1992, this colt left for his heavenly abode. To racing fans his loss was the equivalent of what Mao and Gandhi were for the masses of those nations when they died. He was a true immortal. |
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Timeform have Nijinsky on 138 and Sir Ivor 135.
Nijinsky ran 8 times in 1970 and Sir Ivor 9 times in 1968. There is a stark difference in how they ended their careers with Sir Ivor bouncing back from being beaten by the brilliant Vaguely Noble in the Arc by winning both the Champion Stakes and Washington International in some style. Toughness is something that should be considered as part of the package. I think Sir Ivor is hard done by considering he easily disposed of Petingo in the 2000 Guineas, yet Petingo is also on 135. When people discuss the greats, I think it's only natural there will be a big recency bias towards the likes of Frankel and Sea The Stars. Only personal opinion, but I would have several ahead of both of those. |
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Vaguely Noble actually produced a series of spectacular performances. At two he won the Sandwich Stakes by 12 lengths and then two weeks later the Observer Gold Cup by 7 lengths from a decent field that included Connaught and Lorenzaccio. Those performances put him second in the Free Handicap, 1lb below Peingo. At three he won four of his five races, none by less than three lengths. He had no classic engagements. The one blip came in the Grand Prix De Saint Cloud after which the jock was replaced.
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Dancing Brave's my favourite but Sea Bird's Derby & Arc wins on video
makes him look a machine. |
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And that Arc was considered one of the best ever renewals.
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Sea Bird was the best I would ever see in my view and will never forget him cruising alongside my 33/1 shot I Say who was then leading and breaking my heart by leaving him for dead. My horse finished 3rd and the second horse Meadow Court went on to win the Irish Derby by 8 lengths. The Arc was a runaway win for him despite swerving across the course.
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Nijinsky deffo got a mention in Only Fools And Horses in the episode Homesick (series 3 episode 1)
There is a good chance Arkle also got a mention in an episode though can't pinpoint which one. |
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It was during the same scene cardinal.
Del confuses the horse with the dancer not realizing the dancer died 40 years ago he said he'd get tickets for his show , then when he asks Rodney who he gets Nijinsky confused with to try to save some embarrassment he gets Rodney's reply of Arkle  |
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Freddie Starr knocked Nijinsky into a cocked hat
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Rx-8EUzZc |
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I was watching a few 60s Derbys this morning by Pathe News, what fabulous crowds it attracted back then with lots of weird and wonderful things going on besides the racing itself, everyone seemed to be tucking into jellied eels as well. Looked a really good day out.
Incidentally what year were starting stalls first used in the Derby, noticed it earlier, did seem strange seeing some races started by the tape. |
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The first Epsom Derby using the starting stalls was in 1967.
https://www.investec.com/en_gb/focus/derby/starting-gates-epsom.html |
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I do believe it was the owner who wanted to go for the Leger,and not particularly Vincent.That race (apparently) affected his preparation for the Arc,plus the attack of ringworm did not help.
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Royal Palace another one for whom a rating of 131 seems a bit on the harsh side. Dual classic winner and won 5/5 as a 4yo, including seeing off Sir Ivor in an Eclipse. Not many have done that in a third season, although without injury, Mill Reef might have done something similar.
Compare that rating to their rating of 137 for Apalachee as a 2yo. That must be their biggest blip in history. The 1973 Observer Gold Cup was a poor race (unlike the 1971 version won by High Top which was a vintage renewal) and I doubt the winner could have won by much more than the official margin. There's never been anyone better than L Piggott in bringing one there seemingly cruising. I suspect that they quite often didn't have as much in the tank as it seemed. Perhaps it was a case of once bitten when they came to rate Arazi's juvenile season which had so much more substance than Apalachee's. |
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Royal Palace is an interesting case highlighted in the debate about Frankel and the rating of Excelebration. The poster brigust remarking that Excelebration's rating (that was unbelievably higher than Royal Palace) was merely to boost Frankel's rating.
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Maybe so. Not Frankel's fault, but it's not often you get two 'greats' teeing off against each other in a season as you had with Vaguely Noble/Sir Ivor and a few years later with Brigadier Gerard/Mill Reef. Of course there was so much speculation about those two meeting for a second time, but it never happened. The Brigadier was brilliant over a mile, but I would have sided with Mill Reef over 1m2f+. You couldn't have got a much better CV than what Mill Reef had as a 3yo. The extended pattern now complicates matters. It used to be the Classics, King George VI & Queen Elizabeth, possibly the Eclipse, and the Arc. They introduced the Benson & Hedges in 1972, and in more recent times the Irish Champion Stakes. I don't think that the King George and Arc are what they used to be in terms of quality.
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Another comparison I have doubts about would be Assert on 134 and Golden Fleece on 133. Golden Fleece was tremendously impressive on all four starts before his season was curtailed. He trounced Assert twice. Given that level of superiority I would be surprised if Assert had been able to improve past him. As far as I am aware Eddery settled on Golden Fleece as being the best he rode.
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not easy to keep a classc 3yo going throughout the season - like sea the stars, enable. mill reef
sir ivor was the nearest vincent o'brien had to doing this sea the stars has the greatest ever 3yo season followed by mill reef |
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I can't have Sea The Stars as being a better season than Mill Reef. Even though he didn't win that 2000 Guineas it was considered one of the best ever renewals. Sea The Stars beat Delegator who won one race over a mile in his career. Mill Reef then went through the season winning by daylight, including the King George/Eclipse double, and for me against better opposition than Sea The Stars ever encountered.
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Must admit i've always thought that Mill Reef 3yo record was unparalleled
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the horses behind mill reef in the guineas never won another race between them. whereas sts had the irish guineas, st james p 1/2, sussex stakes, qeii winners behind him
mill reef's season was great but for me sts remaining unbeaten including the guineas just trumps mill reef's king george |
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The French thought Gyr was a very good horse and were very bullish about his Derby chances,always thought Piggott played down Nijinsky because the ride he gave him in the Arc certainly wasn't his finest hour,listen to the John Oxx RTV interview when he talks about Sea the Stars Arc's bid,he said he was worried as even Nijinsky managed to get beat there. Went on to be a very good stallion too.
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Sea the Stars won all the right races so has to be considered as one of the all time greats.
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Take your point A_T but seems a slightly unfair comparison using the Guineas , Sea The Stars won a 15 runner field which numerically was bound to produce plenty of winners , that said obviously a good race , whereas Mill Reef's Guineas was a 6 runner affair with the big three well ahead of Minsky with the other two runners tailed off , seemed to me that the big three of Mill Reef , Brigadier and My Swallow were such a long way ahead of the rest that the Guineas field ended up a 6 runner race or effectively a three runner one , in stature those three were the Novak/Rafa/Roger of their time as to three greats all around at the same time.
All about opinions though mate |
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Nijinsky won the triple crown you can't take that away from him. But i've thought for a long time it was a soft season. And in the KG Blakeney good horse that he was below average for Derby winners. In fact trainer thought his other Derby winner ( Morston ) was better. Nobody with any idea puts Camelot near STS or many others and he nearly did it. What you need is a soft guineas or soft Leger or both.
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And in the case of STS you need to run !
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my swallow was a top 2yo but never won another race after - more emma radacanu than roger federer
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Sea the Stars won all the right races so has to be considered as one of the all time greats.
imo winning the king george rather then the juddmonte would have made a better season - you'd have taken sts to beat conduit but running at ascot might have taken more out of him - hampering later season efforts |
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golden horn another one with a truly great 3yo season - doesn't often get a mention
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emma raducanu
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The 1971 2000 Guineas was the coming together of three brilliant juveniles.
My Swallow did win on his seasonal debut at 3. He only raced twice after the Guineas, finishing second in France behind Faraway Son, and running Realm to 1/2 length in the July Cup, six lengths ahead of the rest:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX6_KWmfurs Minsky was exported to the US and won a couple of races before finishing placed in the Washington International. Good Bond also won later in the season and ended the season rated 120+. Indian Ruler was just outclassed. |
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Cardinal Scott 01 Sep 24 21:41
Nijinsky deffo got a mention in Only Fools And Horses in the episode Homesick (series 3 episode 1) There is a good chance Arkle also got a mention in an episode though can't pinpoint which one. Handsome Samson was another Derby favourite who gets a mention in " A Royal Flush" |
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Nijinsky got another mention when the doctor visited the flat to see grandad and said he had legs like Nijinsky , the look on Del's face told you he thought the doctor meant the racehorse , so Rodney said he means the dancer Del , to which the doctor quipped " I don't "
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Tasty bird in that episode
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Apologies to the posters having a sensible discussion on this thread
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