DERBY BUILD UP TO THE BIG RACE

Yeah Mac I think it was the only time they held a sweeps at the school. Kids were supposed to buy a ticket for their parents. Wouldnt allow it nowadays of course. They would probably bang you up for corrupting children.
Funny you should mention art Sam as the same kid who won the sweep burnt down the art block later on, if memory serves. Art teacher was a right ponce, gave me a mark of 14% in my exam. So bollocks to him.

I started gambling when I was at Primary school. I was 8. Horse won. I had a tanner on it.

.... wish it had got beat

A Town Called Epsom (1975)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcMOCCssyBs

If you have an hour to spare, well worth a watch. Two parts, half an hour each.

The History Of Epsom Derby (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYRXxbCNJCo

The History Of Epsom Derby (Part 2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvczcLuNv5I

Enjoy!

The whole country stopped for the derby when on wednesday

casemoney, it really did,       

Wednesday = free periods in schools and colleges in the afternoon.

Unofficial Bank Holiday in London.

The only time I have been to Epsom was for Salsabil's Oaks. Don't think that was much of a race, but she was obviously well above average.

As regards the Derby it's not been a great race betting wise, but it has thrown up some very impressive winners. Sea Bird and Mill Reef were just before my time, but you then had the likes of Troy and Shergar. Unfortunately, a number of winners didn't quite see out their seasons.

The one big might have been winner was Golden Fleece. He came from way back, and still won very easily. Some rare footage here:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6-Ae6AOe3c

I have a feeling this week's Classics won't live so long in the memory.

You could be right DD.

Salsabil went on to win the Irish Derby.
In The Groove was in that Oaks,she went on to win some good races.

My first Derby at the track was Teenoso's 1984, Went with my dad, got turned over for a 'racecard' with a tip in it on the way in, dad was furious with the pikey that sold it to me , picking on a young'un indeed!
We spent a couple of races in Tatts but it was so chock a block, we decided to head into the middle of the course for some more elbow room. I remember there was the England/Scotland football match on that weekend, so the place was teeming with the tartan army, all pi.ssed up and rowdy. Cant say it was a wonderful experience at the time, but i look back with fond memories and its nice to be able to say i was there in the days when the crowds were that massive, and to see Lester win a Derby.

Wasn't it heavy ground for that day in 1984 after a great deal of rain?

It was soft ground, yes, although a nice hot day on the Wednesday.

Well it looks like they're running COT. I must admit whatever the class or otherwise of this years Derby COT makes it one of the most interesting in a long time.

Since last year? Isn't it exactly the same scenario?

May 27, 2024 -- 12:15PM, fairweather wrote:

My first Derby at the track was Teenoso's 1984, Went with my dad, got turned over for a 'racecard' with a tip in it on the way in, dad was furious with the pikey that sold it to me , picking on a young'un indeed! We spent a couple of races in Tatts but it was so chock a block, we decided to head into the middle of the course for some more elbow room. I remember there was the England/Scotland football match on that weekend, so the place was teeming with the tartan army, all pi.ssed up and rowdy. Cant say it was a wonderful experience at the time, but i look back with fond memories and its nice to be able to say i was there in the days when the crowds were that massive, and to see Lester win a Derby.

1984 was Secreto/El Gran Senor yours was 1983

Willie The Shoe was on Salmon Leap

Since last year? Isn't it exactly the same scenario? - Not really. No one said AR was Frankel and a repeat of last year is eminently more significant than it happening once.

You must have missed all of O'Brien's quotes about Auguste Rodin. Wasn't he supposed to be winning the Triple Crown?

Well they tend to be bullish but stating in front of the Newmarket crowd after the Dewhurst that COT was going to be their Frankel took it to a different level. Also COT isn't anything like the physical specimen that AR was and wasn't 7/4 to win win the Derby after such a poor run. He just can't win the Derby yet they must think he will otherwise they wouldn't run him (I assume.).

Willie The Shoe was also on Hawaiin Sound , he was caught close home by Shirley Heights and Starkey.

In reply to 'Impossible', yes indeed we got Wednesday afternoons off but you had to go to school on Saturday for half a day to make up for it.

If COT wins the Derby in the manner of Shergar connections will be shouting from the rafters again despite the present field is nothing special on form; Economics and Arabian Crown are absentees. But, he'd be the best result for me.

The big Q is, how many of you are backing COT to win the substandard Derby at the most ridiculous odds for a colt who has not grown, looks like a starved hurdler and stuffed because he has not trained on?

In AOB do you trust enough for lightening to strike twice in a sub par GP1 and trust a clothes horse to beat trees?

How much of COT's current price is purely due to what happened last year?
If last year hadn't happened what price would he be.
My inclination would be to place lay him with the above going a long way to skewing his price.
On the face of it the guineas run was really horrible and his current price with all the question marks on his training on, staying etc all more prevalent now than they were before the Guineas, the Auguste Rodin factor and the connections are playing too big of a role in his price.

I like Ancient Wisdom, he too has top class 2 year old form which has received some boosts, he looks a certain stayer who will appreciate a little cut with rain forecast, I think he has been overlooked in the wake of what Economics did to him in the Dante with people just putting a line through the rest of the field, he could provide the winner that day with one big boost and maybe leave Haggas a little red faced, although I understand their reasons for taking him out.

Why should Haggas be red faced?

Regardless of what happens in the Derby he stated why the horse was taken out before the Dante and imo he was right as stated previously. The race is a non event these days in terms of stallions and breeding and most with good mares only give the result a passing glance for the future.

See The Stars the last credible entity and AOB and the boys shot themselves in the feet with nags they never considered winning the race beating the next Pegasus they owned.

AOB a "Genius" ROFL, how many "Best Ever" have actually been that?

One should note that before the 2024 2000 Guineas poor run  by COT former jockey and COT work rider Dean Gallaher stated in a TV interview that the horse is an airplane.

It would be good for the race if COT won in the style of Shergar. Brave words by Mr O`Brien. His evaluation is good enough for I.

I think the bookies will try and catch COT (they already had their pound of flesh in the 2000G). I think COT will be on several bookies price boost too.

I think the similar scenario with August Rodin last year in 2000 Guineas then Derby has highly influenced the big race odds. Question is: Can lightning strike in the same place twice?

If they are going to run the horse City of Troy then it ought to be taken seriously is my opinion.

The mysterious Horsenapping of Shergar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv2yodVOzOM

An equine tragedy.

Harry Hill takes a lighter hearted look at the case

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j2BOygmBDY

thanks for that sparkling insight sparrer

you have dug out a nugget for all us mugs

just an opinion on a horse that isn't a odds on shot that some are making it out to be with all their speculations. Actually 3.85 available so what is your view mitolo?  Lay or play?

Lay it all day and week sparrow imvho!!!

Lay it all day and week sparrow imvho!!!

I wouldn't be laying it at this stage and probably not at all at 3.85.

We have laid it to lose £155 K min sparrow and hope for more!!!

With COT in the field I think one has to back (if not laying) at least 2 in this race eg a single and a double or multiple. Unless one is COT connected the horse cannot be backed with big money. Hence, a double or multiple to lessen the pain but increase the return; COT at 3/1 is still no value.

Well reasoned Impossible, few sane people could argue with that, did you say you were Mongolian or Hungarian?

Sorry, just forgot your native language?

i dont have one sparrer. its guessing based on the trainer. anyone else it would be double figures. hearsay and guesswork is no way to form an opinion. as punting media these races are rubbish. makes me laff when people go on about liking something thats had 2 or 3 runs. its bollox. things change radically 2-3 and even 3+. the derby is not a punting race. too many imponderables. will it stay/handle the track/ too inexperienced/ traffic probs, etc. just not a good bet, even if it wins.

and im not a pre-race wagon anyway, unless theres good reason for it, ie massive choc ice that will not appear i/r. as a rule i oppose these things. eg, vandeek was handy on sat. appalling after-timing i know but i had to get something back after it rogered me good and proper fto at nottingham when i could have greened for a nice result but didnt and it was orrible

I agree it's not much of a punting race with so many unknowns but it's just a tradition to look for a bet and a result. I don't bet in running very often and it has become a very bad race for me over the years and I've already been disappointed this year as I had backed Economics in the Dante and was looking forward to it running in the Derby so that leaves me to have another look at the field.

despite my previous waffle i do like to have a bet in it. like the national(30 years and no winner)

been to epsom many times but its one of me least faves. too small and unbearable when crowded. and whoever thought it would make a great place for racing must have been on the good stuff

im an evangelist for i/r as its the only time the prices are wrong. although liquidity is desperate but without it id have to get me hod out. if you are granite and and just wait for something wacky you can make a modest living doing it, as ive said many times before. those who dont bet i/r are missing something. the start of races is the big one. everyone is watching the end

Been racing there since the 17th century when the course was established by Lord Derby`s ancestors from the Stanley family. Mentioned in Samuel Pepys diary. The legendary Eclipse, unbeaten in 18 races recorded his first win at Epsom and the rest is history. Not a lot of people know that.

we do now. all 3 of us

although lord deby had nothing to do with epsom, being from murkeyside

Me, you and Sparrow

sorry for the bad grammar - You, Sparrow and I.

nuffink wrong wiv your grammar

Thanks mitolo.

Only one significant winner over the years , backed ante post after Chester race , ran green and silly price vs horse that beat it . Was away camping and in car driving back from supplies , pulled over to listen to race on car radio , not a bloody word , half a furlong to go ...' Theres one on the outside ..Wings... ' I screamed , turned off radio and legged it back to campsite to watch reruns . Still watch the race at least once a year and still cant believe , given its passage how it won .2017 Wings of Eagles .

My first bet in the Derby was Grundy in 1975. My intention had been to back Lester Piggott and as it was the first time I had ever been in a bookies somebody helped me write out a slip. I wasn't sure of the name of Piggott's horse and somehow got Grundy and Bruni mixed up, how lucky... First time I went to Epsom I backed Reference Point. Sadly the race has lost its lustre for me, although had a bit of revival in the years before covid when a big group of us used to go and I had a good sequence of winners; Authorized, New Approach, Sea the Stars, Camelot, Australia, Golden Horn, Harzand. Always had a wodge on St Nicholas Abbey in the Coronation.

This year my big bucks will be on Ezeliya in the Oaks. Will punt a bit on Hamish in the Coronation as the horse owes me nothing and would love to see it win. Not a clue about the Derby so interested in any inspiration from the forum.

I used to enjoy sorting out the Derby winner and it was usually a horse with good 2yo form back in my youth. Blakeney, Mill Reef, Grundy and Sir Percy were among my winners but in recent years with the dominance of Coolmore and to a lesser extent Godolphin I have rather lost interest. How can you read the minds of an outfit with 5 runners in the race? Still a good watch though.

No disrespect intended to Coolmore but Aidan training half the field each year doesn`t exactly add to the excitement and prestige of the race.

despite all the **** spouted by AOB ,betting today suggests ryan will be riding los angelos

I hope so.

ffs ante-post markets for Derby, Oaks, Coronation absolute gash, no wonder ap betting is dead. Despite nine runner still in Coronation, bookies only offering 2 places, stinkers...

There must be people taking the prices otherwise they would offer better.

Actually 10 runners still quoted for Coronation, but offering places. I didn't even realise bookmakers could offer less places than the established practice of three places for eight or more runners...

Have some of them been declared non runners by trainers even though they are officially still in the race. Is so then some bookmakers might remove them from their list.

Its possible they are doubtful, although you can select all ten of them to have an ante-post bet which would lose if they don't run as not nrnb markets.

Chances of Auguste Rodin & White Birch turning up are slim to say the
least.Fair play to Billy's not got them on oddschecker.If they have
them quoted should be 1st 3.Doubt they'll return stakes if backed.

Here is the 1978 Derby in full. I remember it as if it was yesterday, yet I can`t remember what I bet yesterday, lol. The Shoe riding for Mr Sangster nabbed by Lord Halifax`s Shirley Heights. Just for you slippy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqR9cB0-XWc

What I love about these old replays is the other horses that also ran in the race.

Next one is 1973 when Morston, full brother to Blakeney, gives Arthur Budgett his 2nd Derby in 5 years. Ridden by the great Eddie Hide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4HvxLdm2NY

*Half brothers Blakeney and Morston

This is brilliant watch. 1938 Derby Day report.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn8bTzdyoZQ

Full of wonderful characters unlike today when 90% of people look like clones.

Massive crowds and ordinary people and toffs enjoying themselves.

And 1955 with over half a million across the Epsom Downs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM73R_HW9TY

I wonder if they will be watching this years race in over 60 years time reflecting on a once great race.

.... I doubt it.

As far as i'm concerned Mac it's the 4.30 Epsom , the criteria to contemplate a bet will apply the same as for the 3.30 Worcester in that the race either qualifies or it doesn't.

Sad thing is Hayden, that you are not alone mate. Majority of gamblers feel the same.

Thanks Mac for putting up those nostalgic pictures.

Hayden is correct sadly. I well remember previous comments re school sweeps/Nation stopping/unofficial holiday/etc.
As I said on Friday my first memory was 1952 Tulyar. The small village I was brought up in just after the war had a blacksmith who was also a farrier mainly for farm animals. Every year prior to the Derby the blacksmith would run a sweep for I think 5 shillings a shot. Almost every family would be involved, and word would go out to neighbouring towns and villages and even Counties, so that the prizes were a lot of money at the time. Entries were huge and every entry was not certain of a runner. The Blacksmith would be assisted by his apprentices and the night before the race the draw was made.
The Blacksmith was a racing fanatic and followed Garry Owen in the Daily Record . He had a strong accent and when a blank was drawn against your name he would say "TommywestofLanark a bloooonk". If you drew a runner it was very exciting if you got the fav.even more so. He drew St Paddy himself much to protests of fix fix .In Psidiums year 61 Harry Wragg had a shorter priced runner as well. When Psidium's name came out he just called it Raaaags Itheryin.
He also used to say The Aaaagaa Khaaaan quite a lot.
My first school sweep was around 58/59 and I remember drawing a horse called New Brig trained by George Boyd at Dunbar.I was able to put sixpence on it through one of the local tearaways who was into everything that he shouldn't have been.
Oddly enough I ran into that school tearaway about 30years later through golf, he turned out to be a really good player (scratch) and was a completely changed person.
By the way Mac my golf on Saturday morning was awful
Good luck to all for Saturday.I'll be on City Of Troy but will wait till Saturday

You`re welcome Saxon. Most folk like a little nostalgia, especially the older one gets, lol!

Good post tommy.

Shame about the golf. I used to be about 10 handicap when I played. Miss it. Especially the banter and 19th hole, lol. Don`t drink now or play golf.

Here is the 1961 Derby won by Psidium at 66/1. Owned by Mr & Mrs Pletsch who won again with Henbit 19 years later in 1980. Great viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9oRaCE24nU

Willie Carson in Mrs Arpad Pletsch`s colours after Henbit`s Derby win

Never Say Die and Lester return to the winners enclosure after their Derby success:

Not sure the Derby this year is going to live up to some of the great races from yesteryear. I decided on Ambiente Friendly ew 4pl; 17/2 seems reasonable. City of Troy is complete guesswork and messes up the race for me, as I wasn't impressed with the size of the horse before it flopped in  the guineas, but the trainers steadfast insistence it is the most exciting horse he has ever trained, just sowing a seed of doubt.

Good luck storm alert. I don`t have a strong opinion and have joined you with a few shillings e/w on Ambiente Friendly.

Captain Cuttle and the legendary Steve O`Donoghue

Reference Point in the winners enclosure

Legendary Shergar and Walter Swinburn

Lord Halifax`s Shirley Heights and Greville Starkey return to the winners enclosure

Snow Knight returns to the winners enclosure

... with the late, great Brian Taylor of course.

Windsor Lad returns to the winners enclosure. Owned by the famous Maharaja of Rajpipla

Nice picture of Reference Point in the winners enclosure. I attended a property meeting in London a few weeks before the 1987 Derby and the owner Louis Freedman, who is standing on the left, also attended the meeting. During a break for lunch I asked him about Reference Point and he was really genial and quite happy to talk about its chance in the Derby. He clearly loved horse racing and talking about it, but I don't remember any other horses he might have owned.

This obituary article seems pretty comprehensive storm..

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-louis-freedman-1194274.html

Mr Freedman sadly passed away in 1998. Here is Tim Richards wonderful obituary he wrote for The Independent. I`m sure he won`t mind us posting it here.

LOUIS FREEDMAN was a self-made property millionaire and the owner- breeder of the 1987 Derby winner Reference Point. A natural administrator who served on the Race Relations Board and numerous health authorities, he was also one of the country's most successful bloodstock breeders and was the last British owner to win the Derby.

It was his passion for the thoroughbred and the great success with which he ran his Cliveden Stud at Taplow in Berkshire that brought him into the public eye, though he was always at pains to stress that he was not keen on the publicity which surrounds the highly successful racehorse owner.

For a man who rose to somewhere near the top in almost everything he tried to do there was no outward hint of a ruthless streak. The genial Freedman retained a refreshing outlook on life and was particularly fond of humorous understatement. He was happy to chat about his horses and their chances - which inevitably he played down - and he clearly enjoyed his involvement in what started as a relaxation and turned into a success-driven breeding business. He rose through racing's corridors of power to become President of the Racehorse Owners' Association from 1972 to 1974 and Deputy Senior Steward of the Jockey Club between 1981 and 1983.

Educated at University College School in London, Freedman served in the Royal Artillery TA during the Second World War. In 1946 he set up Ravensfield Properties, which was taken over by Land Securities plc in 1955. He was chairman of Land Securities between 1958 and 1977. It was during this period that he developed a hankering to own racehorses, which was his idea of a relaxing pastime to take him away from the stresses of business.

Freedman's boundless energy ensured that he pursued an active role in public life. This took him on to the Race Relations Board between 1968 and 1977, and he was appointed CBE in 1978 for his services to race relations. Once asked what a racehorse-owning property dealer was doing on the Race Relations Board, he replied: "Had it occurred to you that I might be interested in the dignity of mankind?"

In addition he was President of the National Association of Property Owners; Special Trustee of St Bartholomew's Hospital in 1974; Vice-Chairman of the North East Thames Regional Health Authority, 1975-79; Chairman of the Camden and Islington Area Health Authority, 1979-82; and Chairman of City & Hackney Health Authority, 1982-84.

Freedman's first taste of success at the top level in racing was with a colt called I Say, who finished third behind the mighty Sea Bird II in the 1965 Derby and went on to win the following year's Coronation Cup.

On the advice of his great friend Peter Willett, who is acknowledged as one of the great authorities on bloodstock breeding, Freedman bought the fillies Lucyrowe and Seventh Bride. Lucyrowe carried all before her to win a string of top fillies' races including the Coronation Stakes, Sun Chariot Stakes and the Nassau Stakes, in which she beat Seventh Bride in a memorable finish.

In 1966 Freedman bought Cliveden Stud, which had been established back in 1906 by the second Viscount Astor, and started his own breeding operation. Two years later he purchased Beech House Stud in Newmarket from Lady Sassoon.

Attica Meli, whom he had acquired from the Sassoon bloodstock, won the Yorkshire Oaks, Park Hill Stakes and the Princess Royal Stakes in 1972. Freedman's first Classic success came with his home-bred filly Polygamy who won the 1974 Oaks and was a wonderful example of her owner's great flair for naming his horses, being by Reform out of Seventh Bride.

During that same year another filly, Mil's Bomb, carried the yellow and black silks with great success, winning the Lancashire Oaks, Nassau Stakes and Park Hill Stakes. With his horses well to the fore Freedman decided to sell Beech House and concentrate his breeding interests at Cliveden.

By this time Henry Cecil had taken over the training of the Freedman horses from Peter Walwyn and in 1986 he produced Reference Point to run away with the William Hill Futurity, one of the top races confined to two-year-olds.

Freedman, something of a traditionalist, had harboured dreams of winning the Triple Crown - the 2,000 Guineas, Derby and St Leger. In Reference Point he was convinced that if ever there was a modern-day Triple Crown winner he was it. Then in the spring of 1987 Reference Point contracted a serious sinus infection which precluded him from taking part in the Guineas.

But the colt was back in time to win York's Dante Stakes before leading all the way for a famous victory in the Derby under a masterful ride from the American jockey Steve Cauthen. Reference Point went on to further glory in the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Ascot and duly won the St Leger.

The following year Freedman transferred the ownership of all his bloodstock to Cliveden Stud Company when his younger son Philip, a merchant banker and chairman of the Thoroughbred Breeders' Association, took over the reins of the operation. At the time he said that his breeding and bloodstock would benefit from being run by a younger man, though it transpired later that Freedman had become disillusioned after an article in The People newspaper earlier in 1988 had made allegations that he had been party to an illegal deal with Lester Piggott about the jockey's retainer.

Louis Freedman was so upset by the whole affair that he reduced his public involvement in racing. At the subsequent libel case with The People an out-of-court settlement was agreed, with Freedman receiving substantial damages and costs which were believed to be in the region of pounds 300,000.

Louis Freedman, property dealer and racehorse owner and breeder: born 5 February 1917; CBE 1978; married 1944 Cara Abrahamson (one son, one daughter; marriage dissolved), 1960 Valerie Clarke (one son); died Cliveden, Berkshire 21 December 1998.

You beat me to it Hayden while I was reading it. Apologies I only seen your link after I posted it. Honestly Guv!

Yes that's the link Mac   

Attica Meli was a big favourite of mine. Trained by Noel Murless and ridden by Geoff Lewis.

Perhaps my memory is playing tricks with me but I seem to recall the Freedman colours carried by Attica Meli and others at the time as being Yellow, with a Black disc on body. Perhaps, blackbarn or ged or geoff or onlooker can clarify. It`s possible, these colours were registered in his wife`s name but I may be completely wrong.

What u fancy for Derby Hayden?

Last bet i had at a racing festival Mac was a bad e/way double against Black Caviar & Frankel in 2012 , i'm strictly a strategical gambler and festivals full of horses trying their best isn't for me.

I'm a double digit & low grade racing kinda guy   

Attica Meli was an Irish-bred British-trained Thoroughbred racehorse and broodmare. Owned by Louis Freedman and trained by Noel Murless she won seven of her fifteen races and was regarded as the best British filly of her generation at both three and four years of age. She took time to show her best form but in the second half of 1972 she won five consecutive races including the Yorkshire Oaks, Park Hill Stakes and Princess Royal Stakes. In the following year she finished second in the Coronation Cup and the Hardwicke Stakes before stepping up in distance to record decisive wins over male opponents in the Geoffrey Freer Stakes and the Doncaster Cup. She was retired from racing at the end of 1973 and had some influence as a broodmare.

Just shows how easily you can forget horses when you don't hear of them for such a long time , remember Lucyrowe pretty well 

I know the feeling Hayden.

Thanks for the info, an interesting read. I've heard of Cliveden Stud and it looks like he scaled back soon after Reference Point career.

CagliariG 27 May 24 19:27 
We have laid it to lose £155 K min sparrow and hope for more!!!

ricardo & tattoo are in clover...absolutely p!$$ing my pants...

Themightymac- The Windsor Lad photo.Is that the Maharaja leading the horse and is that the tipster prince with the feathers following on? No disrespect intended to either.
I was on City of Troy ( not for a large amount) as I said I would in my May 29th post.Only as it is O'Brien that trains it and the opposition didn't look to be great.I thought the horse was impressive but again what's it beaten?
The golf continues to deteriorate but hey ho I now only play for the good company. Like you I was much better when I was younger, the best I got to was 5.1 h/cap, I never set foot on a golf course till I was 37 years old and now I am high seventies.I was still playing off 7 ten years ago but after cancer treatment and heart surgery between 2013 and 2015 My best days are well behind me now. I hope you still play and can enjoy it.

Sounds a tough time that Tommy , best of luck 

Thanks Hayden.I probably made it sound worse than it was.There are a lot of people far worse off than I am.
Good luck to you too.

Sorry to hear about your recent illnesses Tommy. Best of luck with all you do. Great that you are still playing. To get a low handicap like that having only started playing at 37 is truly remarkable. If you had started at 7 rather than 37 I think you would have won the Open! Lowest I ever got was 8 but 10 would be my consistent level. No, I don`t play anymore mate.

Yes Tommy, it is the Maharaja leading the horse in and Prince Monolulu in the back group. If my memory is correct, Windsor Lad was trained by Marcus Marsh. His book, entitled "Racing With The Gods" is a fantastic read. Try and get it at your Library. All the best!