Just had e mail from Santander re gambling

I would ring them up but im busy watching the racing

They are just worried about you. Such caring folk are the major banks.

I'd be complaining to the ICO, pretty promptly. I'd have thought that collecting info about the spending of customers and making value judgements based on that would not be acceptable activity.

they would just say suspected money laundering.  They can just close your account without explanation. Correct ?

This is why I will shortly open an account with a new bank/card  for any course betting I may do.  Don't want my existing accounts closed.

Money laundering, fook me, I only wash myself once a week, shower every Sunday if I need it or not

howard • May 21, 2024 2:54 PM BST
they would just say suspected money laundering

No, that is something entirely different.

thinly veiled i won last mth.

#WAC

I’ve had the same email from Santander a few months ago.

Rico, not in a million years, now now young man, no need for that, ive never had a pop at you

Bit uncalled for rico.

The OP makes a fair point and these sort of emails from banks should be illegal IMO.

snooping into the type of spending we do, or don't do, with our own money...wrong.

They only do it because of the pressure they are under.  Why else would they do it ?

Rico, say sorry or I will send you something nice via Amazon, a couple of XL Bullys

howard • May 21, 2024 2:54 PM BST
they would just say suspected money laundering

No, that is something entirely different.


Tell me then why they are closing bookmakers accounts ?  Worried about their gambling ?

sorry

Good for you Rico. I had one of these emails from Santander last week (I posted about it). My missus could easily have read it and given me a load of grief. AS OP said, seems to be based on funds going out not taking account of funds going in. Also how are they gauging what is "high"?

@ howard

They don't say

If you feel that gambling is having a negative impact on you, support is available.

to money launderers.

If you constantly deposit and withdraw large amounts, your account will probably be flagged. They will look at your overall finances and might take some action.

Also how are they gauging what is "high"?

Probably asking Loose Women what they would consider 'too much' for a man to spend on gambling...or something similar!

What howard said.

Look at the uproar in the press when someone's recently-deceased grandmother is found to have frittered away "their" inheritance on bingo or whatever - the opprobrium is split equally between the gambling firm and the bank who "must have known this was going on and should have done something about it".

Deptford, and any others who have had similar emails from their banks - have you contacted your banks back again to reply? e.g. pointing out the amounts placed back into your accounts to counter those going out? Or simply asking why this specific form of use of your own money is being questioned?

Just interested to know how they might respond to telling them to feck off basically.

I don't particularly have a problem with my bank having my back. Rather them than bookmakers managing affordability checks. Having said that, would be different if I was young enough to be needing mortgages, loans etc. I was taken aback that they bizarrely sent me an open email with a title "Your gambling activity has been high recently", rather than an email telling me to check my secured messages which they normally do when advising interest rate, T&C changes etc.

Yes, the blatant lack of respect for privacy is a very poor aspect of this Storm.

Paypal

Quite extraordinary and there might be legal implications to sending you an Email mentioning it. No doubt they will hide behind government guidelines but no financial information from a bank should ever be sent in an Email. Just as you say they should send an alert to look at documents in your account which should be behind confidential log in methods.

Quite extraordinary and there might be legal implications to sending you an Email mentioning it. No doubt they will hide behind government guidelines but no financial information from a bank should ever be sent in an Email. Just as you say they should send an alert to look at documents in your account which should be behind confidential log in methods.

longbridge • May 21, 2024 6:11 PM BST
What howard said.

Look at the uproar in the press when someone's recently-deceased grandmother is found to have frittered away "their" inheritance on bingo or whatever - the opprobrium is split equally between the gambling firm and the bank who "must have known this was going on and should have done something about it".

Can you give me an example of where that has happened? Can you even give me an example of the bank being mentioned in the cases where people have stolen money from employers and lost it gambling.

sageform • May 21, 2024 7:12 PM BST
Quite extraordinary and there might be legal implications to sending you an Email mentioning it

yes I really wish that someone who has received the email would complain to the ICO.

@dave1357

Not quite what I was looking for, but a recent one in a similar vein...

https://www.ellisjones.co.uk/news/banks-obligations-to-detect-unusual-account-activity/

Good man Rico, respect, tried to phone Santander, you are in a queue, too long to wait

This is the fos decision which was last year.

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-4058666.pdf

. In particular Mr A says he was vulnerable at
the time due to his mental health conditions and difficult employment situation. In order to
resolve his complaint Mr A says NatWest should refund his losses of £32,669.80 and pay
the recommended 8% statutory interest. Mr A also feels he should be awarded £3,500 for
the distress that he has suffered.

The fos agreed with the complaint, so that is obviously the reason why these emails have started. Of course they will be utterly ineffectual but boxes have been ticked.

Lunacy.

good link longbridge.   the question for deptford is whether he has recently increased his stakes

No increased stakes, its so strange

Presumably as they have spent all the money monitoring your gambling transactions because of a loony ombudsman, they might as well send out the emails as often as possible.

How can one put into words how ludicrous that ombudsman final decision is. A bank simply facilitates transactions, as long as they are legal. It should not be compelled to meddle in what anyone spends money on. And this joker expected NW to be clairvoyant. How can they have been expected to establish a pattern if it didn't exist! I spend £40K on a car, well I don't usually purchase new cars for cash outright or via a big unsecured loan, can I get my money back me banker, surely you should have identified that unusual behaviour and stopped me

I had an email from a major bank last week advising me that I had not logged on to view my current for 5 months.

WTF has it got to do with them? The account is well in the black and so why are they pestering me?

It is sinister how so many are now employed to look over the shoulders of others and 'advise' them about what they should be doing.

And what makes it worse, those sending the emails and doing the nosing are almost certainly young, naive and have been brainwashed by a UK society that is a now a nanny state. It will only get worse before / IF it ever gets better.

For someone like me, born in 1960, raised to think and stand on my own two feet by slightly older parents and a very strict, but highly effective, grammar school education, the touchy-feely UK makes me feel ill nowadays.

We are awash with counsellers and mental health professionals who cannot wait to intervene in the affairs of others. Society needs to develop a backbone again and start wallowing in emotion at every opportunity.

It isn’t simply the amounts.

As I mentioned on a similar thread I move money around often and I’ve never had anyone ask anything.
I’m a rate tart, ok they can see chunks moving in and out between financial organisations and presumably instinctively turn a blind eye to those…

But as mentioned recently, to keep an ISA amount active between financial year end and new financial year I recently moved a large amount into a brokers account.
These brokers offer CFD trading among other activities which is moronic gambling and not a peep from Santander.

Cider • May 21, 2024 9:04 PM BST
How can one put into words how ludicrous that ombudsman final decision is. A bank simply facilitates transactions, as long as they are legal. It should not be compelled to meddle in what anyone spends money on

More than that, the FCA guidance which he shoehorns his decision into, was issued on 2021, well after the events in question.

Agree with everyone on ombudsman's ridiculous decision. No wonder banks are sending out equally stupid letters to save them from nutty jobsworths.

So the bottom line is banks are sending these emails to avoid having to pay back someone's gambling losses. But if you've bought 6 new pinball machines at 10k each that's fine because it's not gambling. Even though you've lost 10k+ as soon as you take 'em out the box.

i can't argue that this isn't ridiculous (to use the much over-used Racing Post description) - it's "Draconian and intrusive". However the people comparing gambling to shopping (buying a car or pin ball machines) are on the wrong track (imo).

If you blow £60k on a car - you have a car.
If you blow £60k on 6 pin-ball machines - you have 6 pin-ball machines.
If you blow £60k on roulette and slots - you have sweet FA.

Partly correct I think TM - but there is such a thing as shopping addiction. Yes, people do end up with products, but often they are pointless and simply bought due to urge to buy and spend. I have a close relative who suffered with this, and she ended up with a bank loan of 20 grand to pay off credit cards, for useless clothes she didn't wear. She then spent the loan on more clothes not to wear and almost went bankrupt.

Essentially, financial problems can be just as easy to create by other spending, not only gambling. Having products after buying them is not the main issue for many who just love debt.

No banks or lenders stepped in to advise her not to blow thousands on clothes and at retailers either. And that is of course the main difference - no bank or finance institution will step in to curb other spending, when often the spending is out of control. Yet, for gambling they will step in when there is nothing wrong with it, and in total control.

In fact banks are making huge sums of money from their own gambling. It is called the "Merchant Banking arm" Not only do they trade in shares and currency exchanges for their clients and charge a fee for doing so, they also manage large sums of capital for themselves and other clients and of course that capital can be lost. The analogy with cars is not valid. If you deposit £1000 with a betting organisation you might on average lose 20% of it in a month (less for those who are experienced punters). If you spend £20,000 on a new car you lose 20% in 24 hours as that is the depreciation that most new car owners suffer. You still have the car but not the financial value.

same with the pinball scene sageform but if anything worse. Lockdown was great for man-cave stuff sales. Now there's a glut and they are even cutting prices on some new machines but you will still lose 30% overnight on some titles.

Dartford and I go way back, just for the record he's a proper old school English gentleman, one of your own.

Betfred is the third company to ask me for 3 months bank statements.
If I did comply and print them off there would be literally hundreds of pages, it's just completely absurd and illogical.

All three accounts are now defunct, not that it's inconvenient really but just a bit annoying just how wrong it all is. The decision makers not knowing their ar$e from their elbow in particular grates on me.

Deptford..corrective text..

Reply from Santander

Yeah, i'm aware of the email you'll be referring to. This email is something that is sent out by the system if there are transactions to gambling companies made from the account.

As your bank, we have a duty of care to make our customers aware of the support that is available to them with regards to gambling. If you feel this email does not apply to you and everything is under control, you can ignore the email.

I would like to reiterate the point, that there are no suggestions being made to insinuate that you have a gambling problem, but instead we just want to share useful information that you may benefit from knowing.

I'm sorry that you're unhappy about the gambling email that you received, I have recorded your dissatisfaction regarding this matter with reference

you can ignore the email.

Be easier to not send them in first place then, but at least let us hope that is the bottom line they will take....

Be easier to not send them in first place then,

and then some pr1ck takes them to the ombudsman and they're £50k down.

Cant understand why the o.p. did not tell the bank that it is a gambling account.
its what most do."hello,is that the bank"i would like to open a gambling account"
its not rocket science!!!

If they are just 'infomercials' in essence then no problem, if they feel they need to send them out due to obligations as above.

However, the wording should be changed - gambling noted as 'high' certainly implies more than just some information in general about gambling, it is a description of where they see and judge your personal gambling spend.

They could instead state, we've noticed your spends include some gambling companies. The use of the word 'high' is the issue IMO.

Based on the email I got with the title "Your gambling activity has been high recently", that is an inference on their part, as all they actually know is there were some recent transactions to Betfair which were higher than normal. There were quite a few links to click on in the email regarding gambling support and banking security, but the statement To help us improve the emails we send you, we collect information such as when they are opened and what you clicked on. If you don't want us to track any future emails you receive from us you can choose not to open them., is ridiculous as the tracking has already occurred as the statement it is at the bottom of the email.

From a privacy point of view, very odd they are sending an open email, rather than an email advising to check secured messages after logging into account, which they normally do when advising interest rate, T&C changes etc.

From a privacy point of view, very odd they are sending an open email, rather than an email advising to check secured messages after logging into account, which they normally do when advising interest rate, T&C changes etc.

Also 100% important - they should be careful they don't get counter-sued on privacy grounds.

he got the e mail because he did not tell his bank that it was a gambling account.
the bank were only looking after his interests.
it just goes to show how some people are so careless.

Anyone who are serious about gambling must have a gambling account,in all my days involved in gambling i never seen such a stupid thread.imagine checking your gambling account and see a bill for dog tablets,chips and fish,school books and dry cleaner bills and so on,your accountant would be asking a few questions

brass, you do make me chuckle sometimes but today I think you must have been chopping up your furniture and smoking it

Brassneck, I think you are suggesting having a separately funded bank account for the purposes of masking transactions to and from gambling establishments. It may be possible but certainly no point if using the same name, as banks share information nowadays. Much more joined up than you might think since the law was changed to track money laundering and criminal activity.

i can't argue that this isn't ridiculous (to use the much over-used Racing Post description) - it's "Draconian and intrusive". However the people comparing gambling to shopping (buying a car or pin ball machines) are on the wrong track (imo).


they're just examples, there are plenty of things people can spend a lot of money on that aren't tangible. a wedding or business class holiday. share options. I don't see the particular relevancy, it's not the bank's job to mother your spending or snoop on your legal activities. Maybe the government should do it for anyone who receives taxpayer handouts.

Maybe the government should do it for anyone who receives taxpayer handouts.

That would really upset all the pensioners on here imo

I suppose it could be isolated to means tested benefits. Certainly anyone in receipt of those should only be spending/losing pocket money on any form of gambling.

a gambling account with a bank is paramount for every gambler.
it is not hard to find out how a gambling account if funded.
A winning gambler will never have to fund his gambling account.
if a person wants to try his hand at gambling for a living all he has to do is
OPEN A GAMBLING ACCOUNT WITH A BANK.
FUND THE ACCOUNT AND EXPLAIN WHERE HE GOT HIS START UP DEPOSIT.
THEN HE REGISTERS WITH THE INCOME TAX OFFICE.

THIS MEANS HE IS NOW A SELF EMPLOYED PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER.
THE BANK ACCOUNT WILL TELL IF HE IS GOOD AT HIS JOB OR NOT.
HE IS TAX FREE FOR HIS FIRST YEAR.
AFTER ONE YEAR HE WILL BE ASSESSED BY THE TAX OFFICE FOR INCOME TAX.
IF HE IS GOOD AT HIS JOB HE WILL BE REQUIRED TO PAY PRELIMINARY TAX(INCOME TAX ONLY) ON HIS SECOND YEAR.
ITS THAT SIMPLE,if he loses he can close his business.

Now you can see where the opening poster made mistakes when he started gambling.

Ive been gambling 52 years, they wouldnt let me open account when I was 8

your like myself,good luck to you deptford,and i bet all your bad gambling habits will change if you keep all gambling transactions in gambling bank account.

Might return to the Days 50 Year back , where we have to stand outside the Shop asking people to put bets on for us

THIS MEANS HE IS NOW A SELF EMPLOYED PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER.
THE BANK ACCOUNT WILL TELL IF HE IS GOOD AT HIS JOB OR NOT.
HE IS TAX FREE FOR HIS FIRST YEAR.
AFTER ONE YEAR HE WILL BE ASSESSED BY THE TAX OFFICE FOR INCOME TAX.
IF HE IS GOOD AT HIS JOB HE WILL BE REQUIRED TO PAY PRELIMINARY TAX(INCOME TAX ONLY) ON HIS SECOND YEAR.


professional gamblers pay income tax

They actually do in brassneck's country, although I would have thought that the level of stupidity required to register as one would preclude any possibility of profit.

lol

Well, first I've ever heard of that - which country are we talking about here ?

ireland

Never knew Ireland still charged betting 'tax' - that's pre-historic in rest of UK isn't it?

or in UK I should say of course...

in ireland you can register as a professional gambler and pay income tax, if you are daft. In the uk there is no such option. Don't confuse betting "tax" with income tax.

Eye opener that for Ireland - wonder how many there actually are over there, i.e. registered pro gamblers? Can they also claim back tax from previous losses too?

don't know the ins and outs, just know it from years ago discussions with poker players.

Yep, sounds like a bit of minefield - not least in proving costs and earnings etc...

You would pretty much have to volunteer to pay tax, which is why you'd have to be daft to end up doing so, but the key difference is that it is a possibility in ireland, but not in the uk.

Suppose the only small benefit would be claiming your costs e.g. office, electric, materials, computer, travel, etc...not sure about losses as a 'cost' though in this...?

Though it's still a net loss I guess, given you could only claim that against any tax you were paying, so yes, no reason to do it!

If you had another business and claimed to be a SE gambler too, surely any losses would come off the profit?

As a practising accountant I can confirm that  professional gambler CANNOT register for income tax in Ireland. The rationale behind this is that if gambling winnings are taxable, then gambling losses are allowable and can be set off against other income. As most gamblers lose, Irish Revenue rules specifically exclude gambling winnings and losses from income tax provisions. There is a gambling tax of 2% on bets that is currently absorbed by bookmakers. Those with long memories will remember when this was 20% and had to be paid by the punters!!! The only way that gambling income falls within the tax net is if you are carrying on the trade of bookmaking.

That makes sense, KB. Could’ve been a nice loop hole for losing gamblers out there otherwise.

you would be treated just like a bookmaker,after allowances and expenses you pay personal income tax on profits .Everyone pays income  tax.but you must be winning and show a profit before you are taxed.

. "As most gamblers lose, Irish Revenue rules specifically exclude gambling winnings and losses from income tax provisions."

link please