Mullins or dickenson

I loved Dickenson But Mullins all Day long and twice on Sundays.

I think the comparison is a little unfair as Dickinson would have had far fewer horses. I am sure the percentages would be similar.

You could go back to the 70's when Winter had the likes of Bula, Lanzarote, Pendil, Killiney and Crisp from a string of about 50.

Well 5 times on Sunday based on today,

But Dickenson never had the chance on Sunday,has their was no racing.

I bet Mullins couldn’t invent a racing surface,that has no kickback and is kind to the horse.

Remember,Dickenson was a northern trainer,which makes his achievements all the more remarkable.

The likes of silver bucks,bregawn. Went off 1/10 on,carrying 12st in a hcp.not 2/5 against 3 stable mates off level weights.

I could be wrong,but I think he had 14 winners on a bank holiday once,

It’s all relative,and it’s about in their era ,plus Mullins is in our time.so bias skews opinions.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm mostly).

Mr Dickinson did not have exclusive deep-pocket or powerful owners and numbers far exceeding other trainers in the UK; there were many good trainers in the UK then eg Winter, Walwyn, Pitman, Nicholson,Beaumont, Fitzgerald, etc. To train the 1st 5 home in the Gold Cup (these horses were genuinely good and won many races between them) was truly outstanding.

Mullins all day long   


Let me say one thing for certain , when Dickinson achieved the first 5 home in the Gold Cup it was heralded as a wonderful achievement never to be repeated , if Mullins achieved the same feat today he'd be accused of over dominance and ruining the sport.


How times and expectations change   

It may seem a world away now, but the north used to be very competitive.

A left field descision,to jack it all in,move to USA,invent a surface.

Anyone know why he did this,was his wife,family from USA,

Was it just a childhood dream,a strange career move.

He had already had a spell on the flat as a private trainer which didn't work out.

bregawn, wayward lad etc, names we all still remember, bet noone will recall any mullins horse in ten years time

That's nostalgia talking elisjohn and an age thing , millions of punters by now will never have heard of the horses you mention aside from relatively few that would be into racing history as well as the obvious gambling attraction.

Yeah he did get laughed out of Manton treated Terribly imho.

In my opinion, M W Dickinson, but I`m biased. He had a stronger challenge in UK back then.

Mullins, great trainer unquestionably, but he has a monopoly on equine talent and very little opposition on both sides of the Irish Sea.

Walsh was not endeared to Galopin Des Champs earlier in the season post the horse's defeats last season and 1st race back 2024 citing the Gold Cup could have taken more out of the horse than anticipated, though not visually. But, now Walsh has likened him to Best Mate - 3x winner - I believe.

To train the 1st 5 home in the Blue Riband at Cheltenham will never be repeated in my lifetime, I firmly believe. Until just recently Mr Mullins had not trained one.

We all have nostalgia Hayden, but what he done is Turf history and will be read in hundreds of years time, long after Jump racing is banned, as I`m afraid it will be.

When Willie trains the first five home in the Gold Cup and breaks all M W`s other records, I will concede. Brilliant trainer is Mr Mullins though and hard to compare different generations.

I think Dickinson was backed by Robert Sangster on the Flat to hopefully succeed Vincent O'Brien. But, with the Sheiks, Wilderstein, Aga Khan, Abdulla, de Walden, etc, the challenges were too enormous for a new Flat trainer.

Have to agree Jump Racing is doomed and if you cant see that you got your heed stuck up your arse....I love the game but how long has it got?

People have been saying it's doomed for years, don't think it's going anywhere personally.

Yes, Mr Robert Sangster and business partners bought Manton and convinced MW Dickinson to head south and run the show. Robert Sangster was a true gent and a great human being.

Nowhere near knocking the achievement Mac it was fantastic , just making the point that if Mullins gets even the first 3 in a championship race all of a sudden it's bad for the sport because he's too dominant.

Don't think first 5 will be repeated even by Mullins , but certainly by nobody else.

Dickinson was a failure at Manton.

I was at the Gold Cup for the famous 5, it wasn't a strong gold cup apart from about 3 of the Dickinson runners. In fact a lot of the Gold Cups are rubbish apart from 1 or 2

Willie could easily do a first 5 if he entered 5

Is willies secret the martingale.
Also heard ,he dosent school them.

Even Giggs,who fell out with him,have sent him some new ones(thought they were packing in).

Why don’t the other Irish trainers copy him.if it’s cos all the good ones get sent to him,why,knowing you could have a great one,but be 3rd string.

He is the best,but at some point,too much,is too much.

Mullins could the first 10 ffs.

Aye do even.

Probably could, but he hasn`t.

Name another champion NH trainer who also won a Group 1 on the Flat in the Breeders Cup?

Answers on a postcard please.

I'd disagree. Mr Mullins could not. The Gold Cup is a very different type of race to the 2-miler races.

Harrington?

Mr combustible,
He didn’t win it till 2019,even he couldn’t do first 5

Just about managed first 1

Just watched the race again great memories but i am of that age to appreciate..

Coombs Ditch , Fifty Dollars More and Brown Chamberlain were notable also rans........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3xNOS3d-GM

Aiden O'Brien a champion NH trainer has won a lot more breeders cups than the weirdo Dickinson

To get 5 horses fit enough to run in the Gold Cup and do themselves justice is an achievement, let alone finish 1-2-3-4-5. Will never be equaled again.

Dubbed ‘The Genius’ after saddling the first five home in the Cheltenham Gold Cup in 1983, former Champion National Hunt Trainer Michael W. Dickinson has many claims to fame. Following his retirement from the training ranks, for the first time, Dickinson invented and developed the Tapeta racing surface, which is now in use at Newcastle and Wolverhampton in Britain and various venues worldwide. However, even before the ‘Famous Five’ at Cheltenham, Dickinson had already written his name, possibly indelibly, into the Guinness Book of World Records.

On Boxing Day, 1982, Dickinson made a deliberate attempt – as discussed with his parents, Tony and Monica, months earlier – to break the world record for the number of winners trained in a single day. In fact, during a busy Bank Holiday programme, he sent out twenty runners, or over a third of his string, from his yard in Harewood, West Yorkshire, to six different meetings across the country. The highlight of the day was a win for Wayward Lad, ridden by John Francome, in the King George VI Chase at Kempton but, all told, twelve of the Dickinson-trained horses won and just one of the twenty finished unplaced.

Mighty Mac . Dickenson.

The Dickenson era imo was a golden age for national hunt racing.

Dickinson lived on his nerves, very unstable character. Took its toll, thats why he **** off to the states

Training first 5 wouldn't be on Willie's bucket list anyway although a fairly impossible task , he'd have the horses better planned to win more than one prestigious race as a far better alternative.

My fav was Burrough Hill Lad. The horse ran with his head in his chest. And, I won quite a bit of dosh whilst still at college.

Mac .remember that day,1/7.1/8

No offers on the blower,bookies refused to price them up.

Think they just made up the sp.

Not seen that for years.no offers.

Betting without the fav,before they invented betting without the fav.

Basically betting without the Dickenson horses.

Would anyone like to guess how many horse Dickenson had in his stable in 1983 @ time of 1st 5 in gold cup??

60,based on a third of his string ran on Boxing Day,20 runners ,12 winners.

The time must of been very slow or very quick,given you ve highlighted it.

Approximately 60 geoff?

You beat me to it CUTH - I posted that earlier!

CUTH

Think geoff meant horses in stable at the time of the Gold Cup achievemnent rather than the winning time of the race.

Correct Hayden.

... on second thoughts I will change my guess to approximately 50?

The manageable numbers in the top yards of the 70’s early 80’s meant much more hands on and less delegation. The big yards are run like Amazon warehouses nowadays.

Managed a private betting shop when Dickinson hit the Gold Cup first 5. Our shop hadnt a price up for the first 5 while the big chains were all offering 33/1, I gave a punter 33/1 for a pound and shop owner gave me a rollicking, told him to go fkcu himself.

Yet CUTH. Mac close enough 58.   8.62 % of the stable

That would be equivalent of Willie getting 1st 16 home in Gold CUp

Some class horses on those 2 lists

Sorry TMM will have to give that to CUTH do to your revised guess!!

I even get a mention

Fair enough bet though Basil to lay i'd have thought.

If you come at it laterally imagine laying a treble of Combs Ditch , Fifty Dollars More and Brown Chamberlain all not be finish in the first five who were each fancied enough , i'd say the price was ok to lay.

I'm sure if the bet had lost he would have congratulated you on the extra £1 turnover   


Great memories 

The Dealer -  was present on Embassy Final day, they even had him entered in the Gold Cup. Met with a set back which effectively ended his career. Was seen once more under rules , years later in a Hunter Chase.

Some great names on the two lists right enough!

.... please note that it is not Dickensen or Dickinsen but DICKINSON!

.... apologies for being pedantic

Looked a top class prospect vl, running up a sequence of wins. I didn't realise it had ran again after the injury.

Rodman was my other favourite FW horse.

Cheers tmm, I have to admit I looked and copied the OP

Used to like Deep Wealth of the Winter horses but only a shortened unbeaten career , killed in action at Chepstow i think it was.

Pendil on the list, was a fantastic chaser. Best horse not to win the Gold Cup imo.

Beaten a whisker by The Dikler in a race he should have won and brought down when High Ken fell in front of him. Was going great at looked the likely winner throughout.

Agree with that Mac for sure , as for the best horse since Arkle debate my choice would be Captain Christy.

No worries the dealer, just joking!

The Dealer was a great horse and for some strange reason I thought that Dickinson had trained him. But just shows you how time can play tricks on one`s memories!

I can`t remember Girandole, a very good stayer on the Flat, running over jumps either but he is on the list.

Honneger was also a favourite of mine. It`s great reading lists like that. Refreshes the memories. Thanks for that VL. Good stuff!

Was it Jeremy Hindley that trained Girandole on Flat or Barry Hills? One or the other I think.

And Honneger, for some reason I think Luca Cumani trained him on Flat but perhaps not.

Geoff or onlooker could clear that up?

The Dealer ‘s sole further appearance under rules was in Feb 1980 in a Nottingham Hunter Chase, where he sadly broke down though was not destroyed. Contest was won by another former smart one, Tamalin. The Dealer was then trained by a Lady Fitzwillian ( think that family may be married in to the Reece - Mogs though  stand to be corrected). Not sure if or how many times he appeared between the flags. Someone with a set of Selby & McKenzies would probably know.

Pretty sure Dickinson had a decent horse with   Dealer  in the name somewhere but can't think of full name.

Can't remember a Dickinson Dealer, not a horse one anyway Hayden !!!

I'm a driver the lunatic front runner as close as I can think of.

Cheers VL for that bit of info

Yes maybe i was confusing with David Dickinson   

As an aside most Stallions books back in the 70s were a max of 40...

M W Dickinson's Honegger was fourth behind Golden Cygnet in that Supreme Novices' Hurdle.

Until seeing the list posted above, I'd never realized that he was out of Honey Palm. That makes him a half-brother to none other than Floyd.

Floyd was a brilliant brave wee horse. Guaranteed front runner and always difficult to pass just like Homefield.

Any info on who trained Honegger on the Flat SFBTW? My memory thinks Cumani but not sure?

Now you mention it, I can just about see "L M Cumani" next to the name Honegger in my mind's eye. But I'd want very decent odds before I put money on it.

All I can find online is:
Honegger: 14 wins, £18,804: 3 wins and placed twice; also 11 wins over hurdles,
2nd Select Hurdle, Sandown, L. and 3rd Greenham Group H. Hurdle, Newbury, L.

Bear in mind that I was only 16 when Honegger came fourth in the Supreme Novices. I really shouldn't have been studying the racing page in the Daily Mail closely enough to remember things like that.

Having said that, I could tell you something about nearly every single horse in those lists of the Dickinson and Winter stables above. Every meeting and every race felt like an event in those days, simply because there were so few of them, and the races at the height of the season were consequently so difficult to win. The horses which did win races were few and far between (and Dickinson's and Winter's stables were full of winners - no rubbish) - those horses went on to stick with you for the rest of your life.

This is also why no modern trainer's achievements could ever compare with Dickinson's famous five - there was no hiding place in those days. There was no wretched Ryanair Chase, and the two-mile Champion Chase hadn't yet attained comparable prestige. Everything went for the Gold Cup. These days Combs Ditch and Fifty Dollars More would both have ducked the race for the Ryanair.

TMM .Reckon Girandole was with Barry Hills on the flat. Hindley had a good stayer Crash Course that slipped up (having backed it)in Goodwood Cup 1975 ish. Only time i ever threw a sickie from work was to go to Doncaster to recoup my losses when he won the Doncaster CUp.

Honegger was trained by Cumani.

He ran once as a 2yo, finished 2nd at 20/1 in Div 2 of a Newmarket maiden (28 ran) in October 1976 - Sporting Yankee won Div 1 (27 ran - Totowah unplaced). He then won on his 3yo debut at Newmarket as the 100/30 fav on Cup Final day in May (Man U 2-1 Liverpool) - no racing on TV. Bula was put down the day before having failed to recover from injuries sustained when falling in the Champion Chase 2 months earlier.

Honegger won 3 times on the flat as a 3yo, and was then bought by Tony Dickinson for his wife Monica, "a departure from his usual practice of buying jumpers from Ireland". The horse won 2nd time up for him at Nottingham in November, ridden by Michael, coming from a lomng way back.

As always, many thanks for taking the trouble to dig up all that, ged. All sorts of faces and events, times and places, rise up at the mention of those names and what they achieved.

Thanks for the reminder mightymac.