Crypto kaput..north east in mourning.

So for example, with the grassy knoll, it's certainly possible. I think anyone who stands there could also see that. But I can look at the distances and then determine with whatever gun we'd like to choose how much speed the projectile would lose over that distance and where the bullet would go through the president. With regard to the grassy knoll, I think there are two aspects, one forensic and one not, that kind of rule this out.

Number one, there's not a big of physical evidence to indicate there's an entrance on the front right, regardless of all the stories that I've heard. And number two, the left side of the president's head is relatively intact compared to the right. So if a shot were to come from the grassy knoll, the wound ballistics do not fit. It doesn't make sense.

But from a non-forensic perspective, I kind of have to laugh at the grassy knoll just because as an individual standing there, and as a shooter, it seems like such a strange, ridiculous place to try and attempt to assassinate someone from, because your back is to the open. You're standing with your back to a parking lot with a picket fence in front of you. It's laughable, quite frankly.

ty briggs..sense at last.

Nb Rico   Give that a read the night

will do.

i'd never heard of the picket fence.

--------------------------------------

and he calls me a WAC.

just shows you what you are up against here...

thinks he knows the full JFK story...

then says he hasn't heard of the picket fence...

must be the only person on earth who hasn't.

i'd bet i could walk up wallsend high st the morra and ask 100 people where was the picket fence and not 1 would have a clue.

so who shot connally hibs and from which direction?

6th floor is a museum now,forum trip to review the exhibits maybe.

The question what needs to be answered is , 'Why did JR shoot LHO' a nightclub owner with small involvement with the mafia, it's 1.01 he wasn't JFK biggest fan.

very very interesting after what briggs posted...

PBS Nova Documentary TV channel employed ballistics experts Michael Haag and his son Luke Haag to investigate the JFK shooting in detail with the latest technology available.

here is the documentary.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvV5v5wkpjg

here is some info from Nicholas R.Nalli

Nicholas R. Nalli received the B.S. and M.S. degrees in science education (earth sciences with a minor in mathematics) from the State University of New York at Oneonta, NY, and the M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in atmospheric and oceanic sciences from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, WI.He completed a four-year Post-Doctoral Fellowship with the Cooperative Institute for Research in the Atmosphere, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO, USA. He is currently a Senior Research Scientist with the I.M.Systems Group

55 years ago last month, U.S. President John F. Kennedy was assassinated while riding in an open motorcade by a sniper in Dallas, Texas on 22 November 1963.A civilian bystander, Mr. Abraham Zapruder, filmed the motorcade with a 8-mm home movie camera as it drove through Dealey Plaza, inadvertently recording an ≈8 second sequence of events that included a fatal gunshot wound to the President in the head.The accompanying backward motion of the President's head after impact appeared to support later “conspiracy theories” because it was claimed that this was proof of a shot from the front (in addition to one from behind).In this presentation,simple one-dimensional dynamical models are uniquely applied to study in detail the fatal shot and the motion of the President's head observed in the film.Using known parameters from the crime scene, explicit force calculations are carried out for determining the projectile's retardation during tissue passage along with the resulting transfer of momentum and kinetic energy (KE).The computed instantaneous KE transfer within the soft tissue is found to be consistent with the formation of a temporary cavity associated with the observed explosion of the head, and subsequent quantitative examination of this phenomenon reveals two delayed forces at play in the backward motion of the President following impact.It is therefore found that the observed motions of President Kennedy in the film are physically consistent with a high-speed projectile impact from the rear of the motorcade, these resulting from an instantaneous forward impulse force,followed by delayed rearward recoil and neuromuscular forces.


the SSA Hickey wasn't mentioned in the documentary but strangely a comment under the video posted this..

Hickey's Colt Armalite AR15 01 we now know didn’t have a BURST mode, it had an AUTO mode.
And we can be fairly certain that agent Hickey accidentally fired an auto burst of at least 4 shots, probably 5, possibly 6.  Here is my 6-shot scenario & timeline.  The AR15 01 probly fired at 400 rpm.
Shot-6 is the last shot, the JFK headshot (at Zapruder frame Z313).  The remnant slug exits & cracks the windshield just left of the mirror.  Anyhow, whether JFK was hit by Shot-6 or Shot-5 or Shot-4, it was the last shot that hit him – as the AR15 was falling – ie as agent Hickey was falling forward.  Hickey was in the process of standing up to turn around to find a target near the TSBD, when the Queen Mary (the followup limo) braked, Hickey falling forward onto O'Donnell sitting in the jumpseat.
Shot-5 puts a dent in the chrome trim above & right of the mirror. Fragments dent the back of the mirror.
Shot-4 goes over the windshield & hits the tarmac of Elm St.
Shot-3 goes over the windshield & hits the concrete curb.
Shot-2 goes over the windshield & hits grass.
Shot-1 goes over the windshield & hits the tarmac of Main St & ricochets onto the curb 23'4" from the pier, near Tague.  Tague's left cheek is stung & bloodied by a fragment of lead from Shot-1.

The 52 grain deformed remnant of what is probably the 55 grain slug from shot-1 or one of the later shots is found buried on top of the triple underpass by Lester using a detector in 1974.

in Mclarens documentary JFK the smoking gun,his theory is that a shot from Hickeys AR-15 caused the fatal damage and i inclined to go with that theory,mainly becos of the trajectory the bullet would have taken and damage it done by blowing the side of JFK's head off.
But Michael Haag and his son have shown that the fatal shot could well have been from Oswald.
One things absolutely certain though,no one shot shot JFK from the grassy knoll/picket fence direction..

Using Modern Ballistics to Crack 'Cold Case JFK'
NOVEMBER 22, 2013 12:00 PM ET

If the JFK assassination happened today, would we have the tools to crack the case? Ballistics experts Luke and Mike Haag apply 3D laser and Doppler technology to the crime scene for new insights into the "single bullet theory" and the "grassy knoll."

AUTHOR INTERVIEWS  father and son ballistics team of Luke and Michael Haag



Was there a second shooter on the grassy knoll? Could a single bullet really hit the president and Texas Governor Connally and remain intact? This month Gallup reported that 61 percent of Americans still believe JFK's murder was a conspiracy. Well, also this month a new PBS documentary asks whether modern technology could crack the cold case.

"Cold Case JFK" aired on PBS series "Nova." It features the father and son ballistics team of Luke and Michael Haag and in the film the Haags use old school shooting reconstruction, plus they use modern high tech gadgetry not available to the Warren Commission or others that followed to probe the grassy knoll and the single bullet theories, and what they found is quite revealing.

I want to introduce them. Luke Haag is a forensic scientist specializing in ballistics, also the former technical director of the Phoenix crime lab. He joins us from Phoenix, Arizona. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY.

LUKE HAAG: Thank you, Ira, from a rainy Phoenix.

FLATOW: Well, yeah. That's good news, I think.

HAAG: It is.

FLATOW: Michael Haag is also a forensic scientist specializing in ballistics. He's a senior forensic scientist with the Albuquerque Police Department and he joins us from Albuquerque. Welcome to SCIENCE FRIDAY.

MICHAEL HAAG: Thank you.

FLATOW: Luke, as a ballistic expert, what kind of test did you carry out on the magic bullet to prove whether there could really be a magic bullet or not?

HAAG: Well, a number of them. This is an extremely unusual bullet. It was unknown to the forensic community then, still pretty much the case now. So Mike and I have tracked this bullet through a variety of soft tissue simulates with Doppler radar, looked at deflection issues, filmed it with high-speed video, some of which you saw in the "Nova" program, a lot of which still has yet to be shown.

So those are some examples of things that weren't available in the '60s. Frankly weren't available until more recently.

FLATOW: And in the program you actually shot the bullet through three feet of pine, right? It went through - and then it emerged intact.

HAAG: Well, actually, Mike made the shot.

FLATOW: Mike.

HAAG: I just went up and dug the bullet out.

(LAUGHTER)

FLATOW: Mike, is that correct?

HAAG: Yeah. I think it was over three feet of wood, and one of the important aspects learned from this was just that this is a very stable bullet that as long as it stays nose forward, it takes quite a bit to stop it. And even though wood is not a more modern simulate for tissue, it also goes to the fact that if you just put it through tissue, like the president's neck, it really doesn't lose as much speed.

It certainly doesn't become deformed like a lot of people would think or expect.

FLATOW: And you discovered that the bullet, when it came out, actually started to tumble.

HAAG: Well, that's true when it goes through a soft tissue simulate, meaning something that simulates muscle tissue in human beings, and there are a number of those. And no matter what Mike and I fired these bullets through, they stayed stable in the tissue simulate, just as they did in John F. Kennedy's upper back and neck. But as soon as the bullet emerged into the air, it starts yawing or tumbling like a badly thrown football.

And that is of great importance when we come to Connally's entry wound.

FLATOW: Explain that.

HAAG: Well, Connally's entry wound, when Dr. Shaw examined it and later testified, is not a nice round hole. It's the consequence of a destabilized bullet, a bullet that's going end over end. And when Robert Frazier, the senior FBI examiner, examined the clothing of Governor Connally, he also reported and testified that the bullet that produced that entry hole in the coat was destabilized.

So if you use some scientific thinking, something had to destabilize that bullet. And one good choice, of course, is President Kennedy.

FLATOW: And so your bullet theory matched the actual testing evidence and the actual - the body, of how it entered Governor Connally.

HAAG: Yes. It's easy to see, if one takes the time to learn about this evidence, that this bullet can easily go through two people. In fact, if you line them up and add them together, this bullet, from what Mike was just telling you about three feet of wood, would go through two people and start to enter a third one.

FLATOW: So there's no reason then to call it a magic bullet.

HAAG: It is not magic. It never was magic, and neither is it pristine.

FLATOW: When you say that, tell us what you mean, it wasn't pristine.

HAAG: If one looks at the Warren Commission exhibits, and they're downloadable, the base view, looking at the back end of the bullet, it's oval. It's out of round. This is the consequence of slamming into Governor Connally while in yaw. That squeezes the bullet just like you'd squeeze a toothpaste tube and some of the soft lead core will now be extruded, whereas before, when it was going straight, either through the wood, through gelatin, through ballistic soap, or through President Kennedy, when it emerges from those materials, it's still perfectly cylindrical.

But not when it now slams into the governor going sideways.

FLATOW: And what - what significance is that to the case, about it not being pristine?

HAAG: Well, that's the point. It's been incorrectly called pristine and repeatedly magic. That's entered the public vernacular in this country. But it is not, and there's a reason for that and I just explained it, hopefully.

HAAG: I think another aspect of that too, is people like to say that this bullet, the stretcher bullet, if you will, caused seven wounds. I keep hearing that number over and over again. And really, that's also a misnomer. That really changes the perception that people have of what occurred with this projectile. It's not even close to seven.

People used the number seven by talking about entrances and exits, and that's really not what the bullet is experiencing. It experienced one impact when it comes to the president, going through the neck area. It experienced one impact or set of impacts going through Connally's chest, one with the wrist, and if anything, a half with regard to his thigh.

So really, it's only about three impacts that this bullet sustained.

FLATOW: Michael, you started by looking at Oswald's rifle. Is it possible to get off three shots in the time Oswald had to do it? Do you have to be a good shooter?

HAAG: You know, as long as you look at the physical evidence and come to the conclusion that the president and Connally were hit by the same bullet, that gives you multiple seconds of time to make the shot between the next shot and the head shot. And in fact, with this mechanism, it's a bolt-action rifle, it's a very simple action, it is absolutely possible.

And we've shot this set of trajectories, if you will, numerous times, and it is doable. It is absolutely something that is realistically possible, to come on target, fire one shot that would be quote-unquote the magic bullet, if you will, extract, eject, rechamber a cartridge, come back on target, and fire again to make the head shot.

The first shot is nominally about 60 yards, 60 to 65 yards, and the second shot, the head shot, would nominally be about 90 yards. With a four power scope on top of this gun, these are not difficult shots.

FLATOW: But they said there were three shots fired. Could it be that there were only two shots fired?

HAAG: No, I think that it's very realistically possible that three shots were fired. It's just that there's no absolute recovered physical evidence that indicates where that first shot was. Now, witnesses are notoriously horrible when it comes to recording what actually happened in an event. But many witnesses indicate that as soon as the president's limousine turned from Houston onto Elm Street, when he's right below the sixth floor depository window, that's when they hear the first shot. And actually one of the things that is online now with PBS's website - with the Nova website, is some videography and high-speed filming that we did to document what happens when you put bullets of this type into asphalt at the correct angles as would've occurred from the sixth floor down into the asphalt in the street.

MIKE HAAG: And there's some very revealing, interesting results there. And even though there's no physical evidence to unfortunately examine, I think it's a very realistic possibility that that first shot is the miss and it occurred right as the president was below the 6th floor window.

FLATOW: Luke, what other new technologies did you use in your experiments?

HAAG: Again, we were only able to show some of the things on the Nova program, but Mike's become a world class expert in the use of 3D laser scanning. And we included that to look at some deflection issues. In other words, dealing with that missing bullet, if it struck the tree branches, if it struck a traffic light, a support pole, what would happen to the bullet? How much deflection would it undergo? Mike did that with the laser scanning system. The Doppler radar was added to that to get impact velocity and exit velocity.

So these two tools allowed us to look at a lot of other what ifs. And I'd like to add to Mike's thing, there were three fired cartridge cases. And the predominant witnesses right around the - the best ear witnesses right around the intersection of Elm and Houston are all in pretty good agreement that there were three shots, including the three employees that are immediately below the shooter there on the 5th floor.

FLATOW: Tell us about how this new system - what is the Doppler? How does the Doppler work with ballistics?

HAAG: Well, it's a specialized system, not too different than the concept of police radar. It tracks moving objects, but it's designed for bullets. So you'll see it in a couple of the clips in the Nova program as it looks like a conical device. It's sending out a microwave beam. It's following the bullet in its flight and giving the velocity at every inch, if I wanted to print it out that way. It will show the impact velocity.

It'll then show the velocity of the projectile or projectile fragments coming out the other side of the target. If it's fragmented, it'll track them individually. And finally, I can tell you if the bullet is intact or destabilized and what - how often it's yawing as it continues on its way. None of this was readily available until very recently.

FLATOW: Michael, let's talk about the fatal head shot. What happened there?

HAAG: I think one of the things that causes people a lot of confusion is the difference in the effect of the two different shots to the president, the one that strikes basically just soft tissue and the one that strikes his head. And unfortunately in this country and around the world, the majority of what the common populace believes about firearms is obtained - or education is obtain from TV and other illegitimate sources that really aren't doing - this really isn't doing the population any favors.

So when we examine what was going on with this particular type of ammunition, when it struck soft tissue versus when it struck actually harder bone, like skull bone, and then proceeded into a softer medium like brain matter, there were some very revealing results. And some of this is documented in the "Nova" program as well, just that in the soft tissue these bullets are very stable, they're very hard. They punch right through almost like an ice pick.

But then if you go to an impact to the head where this projectile does strike harder bone, it begins to either yaw very quickly or you can fail the jacket, begin to expose the softer lead core, and it becomes much closer to a hollow-point-style bullet in that. It begins to fragment and come apart. When you have...

FLATOW: Okay. I'm going to stop - let me stop you right there because we have to take a break. I want to get through those details to explain in greater detail and not run out of time. We're going to take a break, come back and talk more with Luke and Michael Haag after this break. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

FLATOW: This is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Ira Flatow. We're talking this hour about the JFK assassination and what new technologies could tell us about this 50-year-old crime. My guests are Luke Haag, forensic scientist specializing in ballistics. His son, Michael Haag, senior forensic scientist with the Albuquerque Police Department. Michael, you were talking about the head shot and the misconceptions that people have had all these years about it. Please go back and re-explain that, if you will.

HAAG: Well, I think I was just trying to make the point - and this occurs regularly to forensic scientists dealing with firearms when they go in to testify, is that our juries, our common public, is mis-educated by what they believe to be truths with regard to what happens when bullets strike things. So really what we're dealing with in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy is that we've got the same bullet striking him in two different ways in two different mediums, if you will. The next shot is soft tissue, so it behaves one way.

When this bullet struck his head, it fragmented and behaved very, very differently. It created a much larger what's called temporary cavity or splash effect, if you will, which is the reason why the head shot looks so dramatically different and is so much more catastrophic. But what's even more important here is that we have the physical evidence to back that up.

If you look at the fragments that were recovered in the front of the limousine, they're demonstrating exactly what happened. They're showing that this bullet came apart and there are legitimate physical reasons why this occurred. It struck the skull bone.

HAAG: And I should add, Ira, that those fragments are parts of a 6.5 millimeter Carcano bullet that Bob Frasier at the FBI and others after him matched back to Oswald's rifle.

FLATOW: The bullet was matched to the rifle.

HAAG: The fragmented bullet.

FLATOW: Fragmented.

HAAG: Two major pieces. Now, there's about 90 grains of the 160 of it missing. But importantly two fragments that have rifling marks on them were matched back to the same rifle abandoned on the 6th floor and later traced to Lee Harvey Oswald.

FLATOW: How did you - Mike, how did you reconstruct the head shot?

HAAG: Well, we used different medium and material. Of course, there's not too many volunteers that are willing to sustain this kind of thing, so we used things like ordinance gelatin to simulate the brain tissue, the internal organ tissue. And then we used actually flat bone from animals in order to simulate the skull. And, indeed, we're able to reproduce this fragmentation aspect in live fire testing.

FLATOW: There was the most recent film - a special on the Reels channel - maybe you're familiar with that - that talked about that there had been a Secret Service agent behind the car that carried the president with an AR15 assault weapon. And that he accidentally shot it and hit the president in his head and that would explain all the fragmentary hollow-point fragments left there. You're not buying that.

HAAG: I've seen the program, if I can jump in, Mike.

FLATOW: Yes.

HAAG: Please.

HAAG: It's just another example of the conspiracy industry. This is an old story that's just been exhumed after Agent Hickey has passed away. But it's easily disproved. In about three slides, if we were in a television studio, I could disprove it. First of all, there are no evaporating bullets, so where are the fragments of a 223 bullet? There are none.

The entry hole, the proponent of this idea drills a hole in a skull. First of all, the hole in the back of Kennedy's skull is not circular. It's elongated. And it's nominally 6 by 15 millimeters. This proponent doesn't realize that full metal-jacketed bullets can produce a hole in skull bone that's slightly smaller than the bullet that produced them. So those are just two quick reasons why this is an absurdity.

FLATOW: Let's talk about the grassy knoll theory. Michael, how did you put that to the test?

HAAG: Well, one of the interesting things - one of the interesting technologies that we used in this examination is what's called 3D laser scanning. And I used an instrument in conjunction with a good friend named Tony Grisham, we used what's called a lika scan station, in order to move about Dealey Plaza and use very accurate laser range finding to create a true digital 3D representation of Dealey Plaza, not only outside but also inside the 6th floor.

And by blending this data together you create one big huge three dimensional realistic world that is accurate for each data point to about 5 millimeters. Again, this is a technology that would've been unheard of in 1963 and is actually still developing within the forensic and crime scene community now. It's something that really came on the scene in about 2006. So actually I'm sitting here with my laptop in front of me looking at a representation of Dealey Plaza.

So whether it's the grassy knoll theory or a theory that a bullet came from the Dal-Tex building or any other potential place that anybody can think of right now, I can simply go into this 3D data and begin to get distances and angles and then evaluate whether or not, number one, the trajectories are even possible to reach the president. If they are, what would be the intercept angles with the president?

So for example, with the grassy knoll, it's certainly possible. I think anyone who stands there could also see that. But I can look at the distances and then determine with whatever gun we'd like to choose how much speed the projectile would lose over that distance and where the bullet would go through the president. With regard to the grassy knoll, I think there are two aspects, one forensic and one not, that kind of rule this out.

Number one, there's not a big of physical evidence to indicate there's an entrance on the front right, regardless of all the stories that I've heard. And number two, the left side of the president's head is relatively intact compared to the right. So if a shot were to come from the grassy knoll, the wound ballistics do not fit. It doesn't make sense.

But from a non-forensic perspective, I kind of have to laugh at the grassy knoll just because as an individual standing there, and as a shooter, it seems like such a strange, ridiculous place to try and attempt to assassinate someone from, because your back is to the open. You're standing with your back to a parking lot with a picket fence in front of you. It's laughable, quite frankly.

FLATOW: Something that's very graphic in the Zapruder film is that the president, as he - as the head shot happens, his head goes backwards as if he's getting shot from the front. It arches backwards. How do you explain that?

HAAG: Oliver Stone's one of the ones who I just saw recently stand up and say we can all see that the president's obviously shot from the front because his head moves back. There's two explanations for this. One's given by the lifelong wound ballistician named Larry Sturdivan, who worked for the wound ballistics lab. It may be neurological response. I'm not prepared to affirm or refute that at all. There's a physical explanation called Newton's third law of motion. And Mike and I have demonstrated this a number of times.

A doctor - Professor Alvarez also demonstrated it. It's basically if a bullet goes into the back of Kennedy's head and propels a quantity of brain matter that we see in frame 313 out the front, it's basically a propulsive effect, a jet effect, action reaction. Not the consequence of a frontal strike. The momentum of a bullet stopping in a human being barely moves him at all. And if that were true, if Oliver Stone were right, then there'd be a bullet in there because there's no exit in the back or in the left side of Kennedy's head.

So it has kind of a commonsense appeal. But when you look at those two choices, a neuro-spasm or physics or a combination of both, it's explainable.

FLATOW: There's no way...

HAAG: I think it's important to note there too that I learned at a very young age from my dad that you go out and you actually shoot these things. You shoot that type of ammunition on materials that are similar, as close as possible, and learn from what you're actually observing. So I mean that's real true observable science. And we've been able to do that in this case as well. Whether it's a mixture of neurological result or physics, we've been able to show the physics part of it.

FLATOW: So from your analysis of the physics, from the evidence, from your own testing, you can confirm that it was a single - the single bullet is not a magic bullet and there was no shot fired from a grassy knoll.

HAAG: There's no physical evidence to indicate anything else. That's correct.

HAAG: Not in half a century.

FLATOW: And it would be possible to get off those three shots - you did it yourself - using the same gun.

HAAG: Multiple times.

HAAG: It's the two that's important, Ira, because we have a missed shot for which there's no time sequence. But if it's - when the car turns the corner, there's plenty of time to do all three of them.

FLATOW: This is quite interesting stuff. If this crime happened today and we were able to investigate it with the technology we have now, do you think there would be conspiracy theories anymore?

HAAG: I think there will always be because there's something in our psyche that likes a mystery, that likes to think there's got to be more to it than just some loner, loser, ne'er-do-well Marxist or whatever the person's philosophy might be, could kill the leader of a country. So there's no stopping it, but my urging would be for those who have a scientific mind to find out what the physical evidence is, then to understand that physical evidence; there's where the public's been let down. No one has really explained what the physical evidence is in this case and what it means.

It probably won't change the minds of a lot of individuals, but the physical evidence and the findings will be lasting long after I'm gone and even after Mike's gone.

FLATOW: All right, gentlemen, thank you very much for taking time to be with us today.

HAAG: You're welcome.

HAAG: Thanks.

FLATOW: Luke Haag is a forensic scientist specializing in ballistics. He's a former technical director of the Phoenix Crime Lab. Michael Haag, also a forensic scientist specializing in ballistics. He's senior forensic scientist with the Albuquerque police department.

Gonna watch this now

so again,more things are revealed in the documentary that people knew inc myself..i'd never know about the oval shape the bullet made on exit in JFK and Connallys clothes..easy to see now how the bullet was on the stretcher when it only partially embedded in Connallys thigh..
was it only Oswald that shot him?  or did Hickey also shoot him? obv the american government dont want folks to believe that theory. we will never know.

sorry hibs and hulk but the experts completely and utterly debunked your theory.

but ewe can still believe,its a free world.

Confusing stuff. How many bullets are there now? 6 from the agent and 3 from oswald (including a magic one still). Or is it 2 from oswald since one of his was thought to be the one found which missed completely

Thought what you read was the first thing your mam told you to dismiss, more holes in your theory than in JFK.

oswald deffo fired 3... either 1 or hit hit jfk.. hickeys not confirmed..watch the video..its very good and factual.

oswald deffo fired 3... either 1 or 2 hit hit jfk.. hickeys not confirmed..watch the video..its very good and factual.

That’s a must watch for anyone interested.

aye briggs..cant really dispute anything they explain can you.

shot from the grassy knoll Walofs.

I remember seeing a doc a few years ago about the possibility of the fatal shot being an accidental discharge from an agent in the following car. I guess it's not impossible and gets around some of the tricky questions which other theories struggle with. Still a bit of a punt though. I mean, if you were asked to price it up beforehand...

you can type JFK assassination in youtube and get 50 differing theorys.

that video without doubt clarifys any silly theorys.

Oswald didn’t necessary fire 3 Rico as although there were 3 casings found on floor some gun people apparently like to keep one already fired in the chamber to keep it clean. If so he could of ejected the first already spent casing then only fired 2. Total speculation tho.

aye true..who do you think blew his head off, briggs?

The fact the Kennedy family gave them access to the clothes is worth noting. They don’t let just anyone mess around with that.

I’m not sure Rico but I’m not convinced 100% oswald

But probably was Oswald   It just bugs me that he never tried to get away after what ever folk might say turned out to be a pretty good plan

Must of been on top round that book place straight away and he knows it but apperently before he strolls out he went and got a coke from the vending machine then was seen with unopened coke walking over the car park so he wasn’t even that thirsty. Summit don’t sound right

Worst thing in all of this is LHO was a sh ite marksmen but you all believe he was the best!!


On April 10, 1963, as Walker was sitting at a desk in his dining room, a bullet struck the wooden frame of his dining-room window. Walker was injured in the forearm by fragments. Marina Oswald later testified that her husband had told her that he traveled by bus to General Walker's house and shot at Walker with his rifle.[26][27] Marina said that Oswald considered Walker to be the leader of a "fascist organization."

He couldn't hit a US army general sitting at his desk and you think he can shoot 3 bullets in 11.6 secs from a 6th floor building on a moving target

well he did get away but was apprehended by Tippit 3 mile away.

When you fail taking out the US army general, what do you think they going to do, let it go Barely 6 months later...............

Oswald’s Marine Rifle Marksmanship Scores
In the late 1950s, US Marines were categorised at three levels of shooting ability, according to the scores they achieved at a standardised test of their accuracy:

Expert: a score of 220 to 250.
Sharpshooter: 210 to 219.
Marksman: 190 to 209.
According to his Marine score card (Commission Exhibit 239), Oswald was tested twice:

In December 1956, after “a very intensive 3 weeks’ training period” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.302), Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a ‘sharpshooter’.
In May 1959, he scored 191: one mark above the minimum for a ‘marksman’.

I recon instead of going for his bottle of pop he could of dismantled the rifle and picked up the casings and at least try to hide them better or even get them out of the building and disposed of.
How did he even get out that building without being stopped is a heed scratcher.

a bloke missed me with a shotgun from 10ft away carla...takes some believing eh?

You would have to be expert to deliver those 3 bullets in 11.6 secs, something not one FBI marksmen could achieve.

1 bullet in chamber..fire and mebbe 2 seconds to twist the bolt to reload and 2 secs to eye the target..easy enough for a skilled sharpshooter i'd of thought.

Maybe oswald was the patsy like he says and the real shooter dressed as a cop or summit went unnoticed when he escaped. I think the 2 shots that hit jfk came from that gun they recovered as proven imo in Rico’s video he put up

But couldn't hit a sitting target?

And was that 1956 report doctored like the autopsy was?

FLATOW: Michael, you started by looking at Oswald's rifle. Is it possible to get off three shots in the time Oswald had to do it? Do you have to be a good shooter?

HAAG: You know, as long as you look at the physical evidence and come to the conclusion that the president and Connally were hit by the same bullet, that gives you multiple seconds of time to make the shot between the next shot and the head shot. And in fact, with this mechanism, it's a bolt-action rifle, it's a very simple action, it is absolutely possible.

And we've shot this set of trajectories, if you will, numerous times, and it is doable. It is absolutely something that is realistically possible, to come on target, fire one shot that would be quote-unquote the magic bullet, if you will, extract, eject, rechamber a cartridge, come back on target, and fire again to make the head shot.

this from a 47yr ballistics expert...why dont you email him carla and say not possible?

Been proven loads of times Carla. 3 shots with same gun. Look it up

BRIGGSY08 03 Dec 23 01:29 
Maybe oswald was the patsy like he says and the real shooter dressed as a cop or summit went unnoticed when he escaped. I think the 2 shots that hit jfk came from that gun they recovered as proven imo in Rico’s video he put up

the rifle was ordered by oswald from a magazine ad.

My own opinion is, he was set up for trying to kill walker, too many people wanted JFK gone and LHO was going to tell the world so JR was rushed in to put it to bed. Did JR own alot of cash to the mafia and he had no choice, was a failed nightclub owner many times.

Aye that was his job if he was the patsy get the gun secure the job get the real assassin in

Yes in training but only once unless I missed another, from precise location to actually precise timing on moving targets, not one could do it.

Rico it might explain why he bought the cheapest out there.  Right lee how much u need to buy a sniper rifle?  £200 says lee. Buys the cheap one an clicks the change.

HAAG: You know, as long as you look at the physical evidence and come to the conclusion that the president and Connally were hit by the same bullet, that gives you multiple seconds of time to make the shot between the next shot and the head shot. And in fact, with this mechanism, it's a bolt-action rifle, it's a very simple action, it is absolutely possible.

briggs £200 in 63 would buy a tank...

He shud of bought one of them then Rico he might of got away it’s only a couple of hundred mile to the Mexican border

Just doesn't make sense, sitting target he don't just miss but hits the window frame yet from 6 floors up fires 3 perfect shots And even if the 1956 report is true that he's not a bad marksmen, 7 years later how much practice did he have in those 7 years?

I don't know maybe he went gun club everyday to keep it up but 1.01 he didn't. Conclusion he would of been a terrible shot after 7 years which is right in line with the General Walker attempt.

Maybe the real shooter was an ex ww2 Italian sniper and specifically asked oswald to buy him that make and model as it’s what he used in the war. Mafia brings him in country oswald delivers him to the place then the mafia either get rid of him or send him back to Italy.  There’s your mafia connection then jack ruby gets rid of oswald. All speculation of course

A bent copper cud of simply driven the real assassin away leaving oswald up sh11t creek so he just goes home gets his hand gun and when confronted by another copper on the mafia pay roll he knows he’s fccked so shoots him

This happened in the sopranos all the time.

no-one in the book depository seen anyone bar oswald briggs...1.01 he fired the shots.. imo.

Either way that gun killed Kennedy and shot the govenoir

ladycarla 03 Dec 23 01:47 
Just doesn't make sense, sitting target he don't just miss but hits the window frame

bloke pointing a shotgun at me from 10ft away completely missed me..is it believable?

rite im off...ty for the heads up briggs...solved the puzzle.

hibs and hulk will be seething.

You asked twice so will reply, don't know the history, was it a warning? was the person on drugs/drink? don't have the answer be pure guess.

He could of been hidden then walked out with the bent coppers Rico when they finally came in. Place must of been heaving with every kind of law enforcement.

Aye ok. Let’s do the lord lucan next week

Lord Lucan easy either still alive or ate by lions

Short clip here about the Canadian photographer who said he took the photo that showed two figures in the sniper's nest up in the book depository, but which mysteriously disappeared after he'd handed it into his magazine. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm-XJ-VQAHo

Also at the very start of this clip, is that all those people running to see who's behind the picket fence?

Rico say no fence 1.01

Rico-Dangleflaps

i'd bet i could walk up wallsend high st the morra and ask 100 people where was the picket fence and not 1 would have a clue.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i know some folk from Wallsend Mr.Hunt...

and it comes as absolutely no surprise that if you asked 100 folk on Wallsend High St. about 'the picket fence' not 1 would have a clue...

what is your saying Mr.Hunt ?

something about Mandingo's n0b ?

up till 2am on a Sunday morning talking about something that happened 60 years ago...

it's a sad sad situation.

and i won't be chatting about it any longer Mr.Hunt...

anyone who hasn't heard of 'the picket fence' regarding the JFK shooting isn't someone i really want to converse with regarding this scenario quite frankly...

a total embarrassment tbh.

HAAG: Well, one of the interesting things - one of the interesting technologies that we used in this examination is what's called 3D laser scanning. And I used an instrument in conjunction with a good friend named Tony Grisham, we used what's called a lika scan station, in order to move about Dealey Plaza and use very accurate laser range finding to create a true digital 3D representation of Dealey Plaza, not only outside but also inside the 6th floor.

And by blending this data together you create one big huge three dimensional realistic world that is accurate for each data point to about 5 millimeters. Again, this is a technology that would've been unheard of in 1963 and is actually still developing within the forensic and crime scene community now. It's something that really came on the scene in about 2006. So actually I'm sitting here with my laptop in front of me looking at a representation of Dealey Plaza.

So whether it's the grassy knoll theory or a theory that a bullet came from the Dal-Tex building or any other potential place that anybody can think of right now, I can simply go into this 3D data and begin to get distances and angles and then evaluate whether or not, number one, the trajectories are even possible to reach the president. If they are, what would be the intercept angles with the president?

So for example, with the grassy knoll, it's certainly possible. I think anyone who stands there could also see that. But I can look at the distances and then determine with whatever gun we'd like to choose how much speed the projectile would lose over that distance and where the bullet would go through the president. With regard to the grassy knoll, I think there are two aspects, one forensic and one not, that kind of rule this out.

Number one, there's not a big of physical evidence to indicate there's an entrance on the front right, regardless of all the stories that I've heard. And number two, the left side of the president's head is relatively intact compared to the right. So if a shot were to come from the grassy knoll, the wound ballistics do not fit. It doesn't make sense.

But from a non-forensic perspective, I kind of have to laugh at the grassy knoll just because as an individual standing there, and as a shooter, it seems like such a strange, ridiculous place to try and attempt to assassinate someone from, because your back is to the open. You're standing with your back to a parking lot with a picket fence in front of you. It's laughable, quite frankly.


picket fence has no relevance hibs,never had ,never will.

have you watched to documentary or arnt ewe bothering cos it dont fit your narrative?

here is the documentary hibby.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvV5v5wkpjg

report back with your findings at 10-30...hurry along

shot from the picket fence abso pmsl...nee wunder ewe cant win gambling ya fckn clueless..

whers hulk?

picket fence has no relevance hibs,never had ,never will.

--------------------------------------------------------------

you have hit new depths with this nonsense mr.Hunt...

always had you down as a pretty sensible chap who is just a bit immature and childish at times...

i think i was a bit generous in all honesty...

nope i have not watched the documentary Mr.Hunt...

i watched the c5 programme and asked you repeatedly to watch it...

you refused...

i wasted enough time over the last couple of days on this and it's now time for me to move on quite frankly.

i am giving blood at 10:30 this morning Mr.Hunt...

it saves lives...

i have no idea how many lives i may have saved (or at least played my part in saving) by giving blood...

you waste your time on here...

i'll go and save lives.

more unsubstantiated nonsense..

take a pic with the blood bag attached to the needle in your arm and i'll donate £500 to the IJF.

HAAG:

So for example, with the grassy knoll, it's certainly possible. I think anyone who stands there could also see that. But I can look at the distances and then determine with whatever gun we'd like to choose how much speed the projectile would lose over that distance and where the bullet would go through the president. With regard to the grassy knoll, I think there are two aspects, one forensic and one not, that kind of rule this out.

Number one, there's not a bit of physical evidence to indicate there's an entrance on the front right, regardless of all the stories that I've heard. And number two, the left side of the president's head is relatively intact compared to the right. So if a shot were to come from the grassy knoll, the wound ballistics do not fit. It doesn't make sense.

But from a non-forensic perspective, I kind of have to laugh at the grassy knoll just because as an individual standing there, and as a shooter, it seems like such a strange, ridiculous place to try and attempt to assassinate someone from, because your back is to the open. You're standing with your back to a parking lot with a picket fence in front of you. It's laughable, quite frankly.

picket fence area /grassy knoll...pmsl walofs..

i will ask if i am allowed to do that Mr.Hunt.

i would prefer it went to the SSPCA tbh Mr.Hunt.

Geeeeeez is this a suitable forum to discuss JFK ….simple question Rico,,,are you married?

The disappearing / burning of evidence
eg The transcript of LHO's 12-hour police interview, which they claimed didn't exist

Deaths of women close to Kennedy:
Mary Pinochet Meyer
Marilyn Monroe

Dorothy Kilgallen

Kilgallen was publicly skeptical of the conclusions of the Warren Commission's report about the assassination of President Kennedy and Jack Ruby's shooting of Lee Oswald, and she wrote several newspaper articles on the subject.[28][29][30] On February 23, 1964, she published an article in the New York Journal-American about a conversation she had with Jack Ruby, when he was at his defense table during a recess in his murder trial.[31]

She also obtained a copy of Ruby's June 7, 1964, testimony to the Warren Commission, which she published in August 1964 in three installments[32] on the front pages of the New York Journal-American,[33] The Philadelphia Inquirer,[34] the Seattle Post-Intelligencer,[35] and other newspapers.

The premature deaths of key witnesses eg
Lee Harvey Oswald
Jack Ruby
Lee Bowers

Intimidation of witnesses?
Notably Warren Reynolds - shot in the head but miraculously survived, but it had an astonishing affect on his memory as he then remembered that it was LHO after all who he followed after the killing of JD Tippit.


I don't know, these conspiracy theorists, eh?

married?  Ffs do i seem daft?

believe nothing but substantiated confirmed facts george...

no doubt this will be considered 'not good enough' from Mr.Hunt.

£250 to the SSPCA...

£250 to the RGT...

would be my preference please Mr.Hunt.

thank you.

An interesting article here from 1966 in Time Magazine, where the phrase "conspiracy theorists" is used, which must have been a new concept at that time.

"For many who believe that there was a conspiracy to assassinate John Kennedy in Dallas, the most mesmeric argument of all is that an extraordinary number of people involved in the case —however remotely—have since lost their lives under mysterious circumstances. As of last week, the toll had, in fact, reached 14. To conspiracy theorists, the clear implication is that the victims knew too much and were systematically liquidated."

The article then goes into "nothing to see here" mode as it explains away some of the deaths as nothing to do the Kennedy assassination.

https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,843014-1,00.html

a picture of a 1/4 of a face is supposed to confirm what? wheres the blood bag?

that's fine Mr.Hunt...

i thought you would do this...

end of thread as far as i'm concerned.

ty.

ps,no shots from the picket fence/grassy knoll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm-XJ-VQAHo

Also at the very start of this clip, is that all those people running to see who's behind the picket fence?

George them people aren’t running to see who’s behind the fence there running to the car park behind the fence to get away. If anything it proves no shots came from there as who in there right mind runs toward where the shots are coming from

Brave men and women determined to apprehend the murderer of their president?

Actually, it's a fair point Briggsy, I wouldn't be hanging around, that's for sure!

George behave it’s clearly people fleeing danger

The railroad workers did run to there from the overpass, but there was no-one there, which the Warren Commission took as proof that there had been no shootists there.

Someone did report to Dallas police that they had seen a man on the railroad with a rifle.

These are the 3 most interesting suspects from the grassy knoll area

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lfrDnCjJuQ

Uri Gellar was seen standing on the underpass observing proceedings.

Then why didn't he bend the assassin's gun?

hardened steel not his forte..previously weekend spoons his speshy hallitty.

GEORGE.B 03 Dec 23 15:47 
Then why didn't he bend the assassin's gun?

Superb

the photo is here for all to see Mr.Hunt...

are you going to pay the IJF the money or not ?

Rico-Dangleflaps Dec 23 12:57
 
incredible how naive people are...

some believe JFK was shot from the grassy knowle,Uri bent spoons,Mccanns are innocent,Sheila shot the Bamber family,OJ Simpson is innocent.

crazy world.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and some folk thought Nicola wasn't in the river...

bonkers some folk Mr.Hunt.

A very entertaining and informative thread this for sure, but I would have preferred to have discovered a little more on the devastation of the beautiful North-East by the crypto collapse.

My informed sources tell me some discerning Professional Ladies were even accepting payment by Bitcoin a while back. I suppose that's one way of spending the loot,  given that  Greegs don't appear to be accepting it in return for their superb sausage rolls and refreshing tea.

I do hope the canny North East citizens didn't throw away all their good money after bad. This crypto "investor" is currently the man who has lost the most amount of "money" In history, and it took less than a fortnight as I recall.

.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0gffn3y