Shishkin debate.

It's never a good thing not starting but imo it's a bit early to be talking about retiring him and who knows if he would have started if they had still been using the long Tom whip, some have, some haven't.
I'm sure they will see how he is at home, going out to the gallops etc but he surely deserves another chance if all is okay physically, to redeem his reputation

Yes give him another chance but the cheekpieces were hardly encouraging before the starting issue so he would never carry my money.

When commontatties and pundits start using the word 'recalcitrant' about the older members of the racing herd it's time to be very wary.
This un could be increasingly tagged with the adjective if its had enough of the game.
Coupla spins over hurdles looming, and then retirement.

So long as they don't listen to Mick Fitz who wants to bring back the Long tom. No rule should be changed to suit one trainer or horse however hard they lean on the BHA.

The Horse has gone from hero to zero shame really.

From todays RP Frontrunner who sounds like the pocket is talking:

Under racing's rules, if a horse has come under the starter's orders then they are deemed to be a runner. However, given Shishkin had shown an indication he was not in the mood to race, should it not have been the case that discretion could be given to rule him out?

Ryley is not so sure, and says: "Shishkin showed an indication that he might not be in a mood to race but that was all it was. To be fair to the starter, I have seen many examples over the years of horses who have shown an indication not to start, or who have had a reputation for not starting, who have jumped off fine.

"So I don’t think it would be right to say a horse is a non-runner if he doesn’t jump off having shown signs. I think there should be a flat rule that says if a horse doesn’t start then they are a non-runner."

Thing is the horse also gave 'an indication' it was going to race i.e. it arrived at the start. Prehaps de Boinville should have told the starter his horse was 'showing signs of incalcitrance' and he was taking him out of the race.

Feckers will be wanting their cash back now that Bouuurbali has pumped the 1/7 First Street. Nicky knew.

Yes, pocket talking.

The Long Tom doesn't touch them -but they think it will so they get running.

Don't see there is a debate really , not the first to become unruly at the start and certainly won't be the last.

As for retiring that's for owners to decide unless the hierarchy decide it needs to pass some starting test or something , certainly shouldn't be influenced by moaning punters who start looking for a bet refund as recompense for their own supposedly informed bet decision.

Calling for retirement seems harsh to me so send it out into the fields for a long rest , sweeten him up and bring him back for some Hunter chasing then resurrect this thread when he wins the Foxhunters in a couple of years time.

Good luck today all 

oops 'REcalcitrance' not IN -just like Nicky's First Street

Does it again next time,think they will retire him.
Won a fair few quid in prize money.Owes nobody.

I would have been furious if Shishkin had been declared a non runner. Pic Dory would have been a 1/3 shot and I backed him at 3.8 mainly because Shishkin wore cheekpieces which told me that Nicky was expecting something like that to happen. Why should Pic Dory backers be robbed because of an ungenuine horse? No different to unseating out of stalls as Chaldean did at Newbury or falling at the first. The start is part of the race once the flag is up.

Entered Newcastle Saturday

Has never been the same since Ascot nearly 2 years ago. Appears soured. Should be retired NOW.

No. let him do it once more and we can all lump on the next best in the race on ratings

" Prehaps de Boinville should have told the starter his horse was 'showing signs of incalcitrance' and he was taking him out of the race."

And if you were the owner, how would you feel about your paid jockey deciding the horse you had paid an entry for probably wasn't in the mood and you could write off your entry fee and the chance of prize money?

when did stop using the long tom.......

Not sure of the exact date but it was a BHA ruling apparently.

I was the only spectator at the start of Call Equiname's Champion Chase in 1999 - I wanted to see if Or Royal jumped off - it did with the aid of the Long Tom !

last week

https://www.britishhorseracing.com/press_releases/changes-to-start-rules-and-procedures/

They just need Nigel Twiston Davies and his belt.

I cant believe they have banned the long tom that was essential to get the thinkers to jump off.Get it back asap ffs.

Presumably they've banned it because it looks awful to the public.

Horses are 'flight' animals,the crack of the the whip would have been sufficient to start him.

Whether he now wants racing is mute,see if he lines up at Newcastle on Saturday..

Shame, he actually moved forward as if to race but the starter deemed them to far away from the tape.

Presumably they've banned it because it looks awful to the public.


..... Spot on, how farcical it has all become.

Absolutely essential it has to come back if it is banned...Put some pink ribbons and and a couple of fairy lights to make it priddy but it has to come back ffs.

If they even see it its enough to make the vast majority of Horses start....Trust me i worked in Racing for over 30 Years i know what i am talking about.

So a horse that pulls itself up after 100 yards? Long toms at the ready every furlong? I am not in principle opposed to bringing it back if enough trainers/jockeys want it but NOT because N. Henderson makes a fuss after one horse misbehaves. Some of the other stuff in that link are total nonsense. A training module for trainers and staff about how to behave at the start. Give me strength. On the other hand I am pleased to see that the correct order of going into the stalls will be tightened by refusing the option of going in late in most cases which is widely abused. It makes me angry to see favourites routinely hanging back to be loaded late.

So a horse that pulls itself up after 100 yards? Long toms at the ready every furlong?...Ffs

If it really has come to banning the Long Tom i would be afraid very afraid for the future of the game.

And i would quite happily see whips only used for correctional purposes.

A friend of mine is a starter........starts want be the dame without the crack of the Long Tom..........

If a horse refuses to start/race 2x in a row it must not be allowed to run ever again unless using the gates. But, Shishkin is too long in the tooth to be educated. I think the horse is getting progressively disinterested in the game; he needed to be kidded along and cajoled over 2m since Cheltenham 2022.

who is this long tom? sounds like a porn star !

I suspect it has a military origin Foyles, slang used by RA for long range gun and possibly adopted by RHA to refer to whips used to encourage the horses drawing the artillery.

Could it be a whip used in the animal circus to make a lion do what the user's would like it to do? Maybe initiate a rolling-start like they do for trotting just for Shishkin and (Hendo).

What price was Kauto Star when he won his 3rd Gold Cup impossible?
tia

I mean what next ffs i suggest  banning Sheep Dogs for worrying the poor Sheep.

TBF acey, some sicko's taught their Border Collies to bark "Mint sauce"!!

Nicky Henderson says Shishkin will be 'as good as gold' at Newcastle start as he goes back to basics for Rehearsal Chase...Ok Nicky thank you very much..... Having me Conkers on.

What price will it be if it jumps the 1st well 4/5 ??

Iff Newcastle  is off  May I ask a couple  of questions  where will he go next and more importantly  has a horse won the kg first time out TIA.have a nice evening.
Ronnie.

Will Nicky guarantee money back to all backers if the horse digs its heels in again? I make it evens to start and evens to win if it does so 3/1 double.

Not sure about the answer to Ronnies question but the opposition is secondary in this case. If the horse decided to race with enthusiasm he would win the KG but I fear we might never see that happen again.

Dont get excited lads forecast is -5 at the Track on Saturday morning.....More chance of Oscar Pistorius catching Athletes Foot than Newcastle going ahead.

Banning the long tom was utterly ridiculous.......but then jump starts have been that for several years now .....

I really think they will bring it back skip i am surprised the Trainers are not up in arms about it,and the guy that came up with the idea knows absolutely fack all about Horses.

I think it ought to be called-off. I'd not risk Constitution Hill on ground that is unsafe; the race is unnecessary for him anyway.

Stood still standing at the start.

Why would anyone bet this thing pre-race?

If he does not jump off and race he must be banned for Cheltenham next March when he repeats it one more time prior to Cheltenham this season.

Was tagged with the dreaded 'recalcitrant' label last time.

Could belt one or three as he usually does and down tools in any case.

Geezus

Sick had Blown them they away

Sishkin just slipped...so unlucky.

Terribly unlucky Shishkin. I think he'd have done enough to win ; his stumbled did not help either Bravemansgame or Allaho.

Looked like he went down on his front legs ad chucked him off, pulled the wool over everyones eyes by electing to start then had the last laugh

Shishkin was all out two out and the way Hewick finished off he would have won in any case IMO

Nutcase ^ what you taking?

half a length up at the last and under the cosh

watch the replay nutcase

You need urgent medical attention

Speaking through your pocket?
Quit the insults and explain why you believe it would have won?

I think a different result had Shishkin not interfered with Bravemansgame and Allaho; Allaho would be the most unlikely winner. i think Frodon was the spoiler for Allaho..

No bet, the horse keeps on and always finds more, sorry if I offended you

The horse is a pain in the @ss to punters now and from their point of view he should be retired as he is a danger to either win, not start or not be at the races every time he runs in a race now.

I disagree given the way the winner was finishing [won going away by a length and a half]

I am open to changing my opinion if Hendo and/or Nico say differently.

Frodon spoiler for Allaho?    I've heard it all now.

On a more sensible tack even with Shishkin's huge bad luck still a more than decent day for Henderson.  And how revealing to watch his horror at seeing Shishkin's debacle and his mind ( and bins. )  instantly turning to ascertaining the welfare of his jockey.

I think he can win the Gold Cup if Gerri disappoints in The Savills Chase.

I think Hewick would likely have won anyway. BMG was also inconvenienced by Shiskin's antics and would have finished closer.

On balance I think Shishkin would have won, he wasn't tired he is just bone idle, I think he had loads left, the issue is whether he would have idled so much that Hewick could have mugged him, but he could just as easily have gone and won by 5 lengths.

Not seen a race all day been out , just watched recording and my guess would have been 4th for Shishkin.

But we'll never know of course   

Effectively a seasonal debut, would be surprised if he didn't tire a lot after the last; and Hewick certainly would have mown him down the way he finished.

Weird to me that they didn't hold him up and ride him for a turn of foot in what was always likely to be a race with a strong pace on

The horse was extremely unlucky.
I thought De Boinville displayed huge class in his after-race interview.
I was so delighted that that flailing hoof missed his head by that centimetre or two!

i cant believe what i am reading on what is supposed to be a horse racing forum.Shishkin would of won 10 lengths.NDB rode the perfect race,and i am no fan.let the horse have its head,showed it clear ground in front and kicked on exposing its 2 rivals for the non stayers they were.Hewick would probably been second and fair enough the game is jumping the fences,Shiskkin did however but was just unlucky.Fair play to Shark for living up the win,his horse did cross the line in front,but howay man show a bit dignity

if my auant had balls shebuncle!

Shishkin had Allaho and BMG beat, he was going away from them whilst dossing big time, interesting GC contender with an asterisk on the starting.

He stumbled and was unable to recover because he was tired. Hewick would have won.

Agree with Nineteen..Shiskin had actually started to go clear of Bravesmansgame and Allaho at 2 out , he took off a length and a half clear of both of them. They are both dubious stayers. Hewick didn't quicken they were both weakening. Shiskin would definitely have won.

impossible to say if shishkin would have won or not ,how many times do we see something cruising on the bridle going to the last get beat ? put it this way  for example if hewick had fallen or made a race ending mistake  at say  the 2nd or  3rd last how many on here would have said he was unlucky he would have won?

a race is decided at the finishing line not 2 out .............you dont get paid out on  woulda wons

cant argue with that foyle.so will you now back hewick to beat shishkin everytime they meet off level weight?

depends on what price ,course distance  going and other factors including  what other horses are running .........look i dont know what would have happened if shishkin would have got away from the 2nd last without the stumble .....but lets take one or 2 famous finishes .......crisp and red rum ....if redrum had unseated at the last would anyone said he was unlucky would have won ? ....harchibald in the champion hurdle ..........cruising jockey hadnt moved .........if he say for example unseated carbury at the last every most would be saying he woulda pissed up........ and we know how that went .

Frodon was hardly a spoiler for Allaho as he always runs that way. But it did mean Allaho didn't get the easy lead which would have suited him as 3 mls was further than his optimum and he may not be quite as good as he was. BMG may not have got home at Cheltenham,but like a lot of modern-day horses who don't quite get the GC distance 3 mls at Kempton would not be a problem. I just think he's another one who is either on the decline or who has something slightly wrong with him.
I'm really not sure whether Shishkin would have won. I think he was getting towards the end of his tether but might have had the momentum to scrape home. Temperament issues aside I wouldn't touch him in the GC. I imagine he'll go for the Ryanair anyway.

Shiskin,win by 10Ls if he'd stayed up.
No chance.

lets move on ......unlucky lucky woulda won wouldna won ............nothing can change the result and we have a cracking looking savills tommorow .time better spent on what might happen tommorow !

BMG lost at least 3 lengths avoiding Shishkin, probably more, so no way Hewick would have beaten him. But as said above it is what it is and gave very little guide to what would happen if those 4 meet again.

Chelt, summit wrong, then refuses, now trips itself up after last, never a dull moment when shishkin is out to play.

Don't think I have ever backed this creature and intend on keeping it so.

No wonder you are all skint bread and gutter, sageform has him falling  and you have him tripping after the last, even Stevie Wonder could read a race better!!

*after second last, they showed it on itv, clear as day, tripped itself up.

Ray Charles texted Stevie as it happened and got it right!! HTH B& B?

Anyone know how short everything went?       

Shishkin must of went low, then Allaho too, followed by BMG was fast and furious carnage

dont know how short shish bmg or allaho went but  obviously fingers burnt ,saw somewhere that hewick went around 600+ at some stage

1.33 shishkin   1.2 alloha  bmg never went below evens

Chamberlin told us very quickly post race that Hewick had traded at 650 on here.

Don Cossack fell in the King George and won the Gold Cup. He was 5/2 prior and 12/1 post King George; Shishkin (tripped) is 12/1 for the big one, but no Budget Airline race, according to his trainer.