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Definitely counted 9 possibly 10
Cheating connections of the 2nd out of a very major prize?
Cheating connections of the 2nd out of a very major prize?
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I counted 9 as well
Defiantly get a ban |
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Don't matter, they won the pot. it'll keep happening until they disqualify them
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Doesn’t matter Crowley did the business to win
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If it's 'double figures' the horse and its rider would be disqualified from the race.
Probably need the head on determine how many above the permitted '6' cracks he gave it. Definitely 8 but could be one, two more. Better hope it isn't double figures less he [and connections] can kiss goodbye to the KG  |
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Thought I read somewhere it was 11.
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Earned around 60 large so he won’t be too fussed unless the ban lands at York.
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"Thought I read somewhere it was 11."
No, way off fella. It's 6 for the flat and 7 for NH. If they go 1 crack over it's a - 4 day ban If they go 2 cracks over it's a - 7 day ban If they go 3 cracks over it's a - 10 day ban If they go 4 cracks over it's a - 14 day ban and the horse gets disqualified Because the race is a class 1 or 2 the ban will get doubled. I've watched it back again and I reckon he's hit it 9 times when his hands were off the reins. If he cops a ban for 9 days or more he will forfeit 40% of the prize money.[that would prove costly] The jockey is able to defer up to a 1/3 of the ban up to a maximum of 9 days. If he it 10 times, with his hands off the reins it will be curtains but you'd need a head on to get a better 'picture' As it stands [IMO] he is looking at 20 days in the sin bin and a 40% loss of prize money earnings. Some may say he cheated the runner up's connections by breaching the guidelines TBF he's not an apprentice jockey starting out. |
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Yeh 11 to be endangered of disqualifacation.
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Where there is no logic there is that the 'sufferer' runner up only gets any recompense if it's 11 and a DQ. And then they get the lot. 10 and they get nothing.
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[img]https://images.onesite.com/community.betfair.com/user/leif/e24b77b8ff1273c6682b14660e85de88.jpg?v=72000[/img]
10 cracks [that would be 4 over and it would be disqualification] |
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Why don't the Stewarts count the strokes before the weigh in?
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How will ITV handle THIS ?...
following on from their - Eulogising Over a - "Great Duel" .... "All the great races have a Duel" "You have seen many great Duels in your time, Brough ... How did that compare" (Well - Grundy and Bustino's Jockeys would have bee Banned for LIFE - and Neither horse would have been allowed to race, ever again) This number of strikes Nonsense - or, rather - This Nonsense ... will Never be resolved by an arbitrary Number of Strikes. |
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Lester was a little tough on The Minstrel I sem to recall.
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*seem to recall.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avN5cLSQJNE
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Lester would have lost the race and the Minstrel wiped from the derby record.
He must have hit it 12 times at least. Eddery would have copped a ban and maybe have lost the KG. whipped them like steptoe would beat his living room carpet  |
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I don't see the issue with hitting the horses as many times as the jockey feels like.....
However many of them as so bad at using the whip that they actually do more harm than good. |
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even worse because it looked like hornby was counting and put it down last 50 yds
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Is there a welfare issue here or are the rules just rubbish, imposed by a totally inept BHA?
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Cheated, unbelievable tnuc
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BHA inept; lol
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Current situation is ludicrous and totally illogical. If you go over the limit to a limited extent you the jockey risk an individual ban and loss of some of your prize money but if you go over by one stroke or more than that limited extent you and connections lose the lot.
If you going to have a limit (an arguable point) then at least have some logic and consistency about applying it. If you exceed it lose the lot. The current position is preposterous. |
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What logic do you think should be applied?
Something mad; instead of bans for whip use, perhaps the jockey cannot use a whip for his next "x" number of rides. Or a weight punishment, or a time penalty... 5 sec's for every strike. hit them as much as you want but you'd be adding minutes to your finishing time and ultimately loose the race without the need for a stewards enquiry. |
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But in Group 1s, i suspect the owners would fully unofficially reimburse the jockey their full amount (if you exceed it you lose the lot"), due to potential extra stud value, prestige etc. Penalty has to hurt so much in such scenarios that most jockeys won't entertain the idea. If the ban were the next 7/10 racing days in which a UK Group 1 were to take place, seems so draconian, but may work.
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As soon as they decided a set number of strikes it has become a farce. If it looks bad it is bad, if it doesn't it isn't. Having a set number of strikes no matter how low detracts attention from the focus of the horse race
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'Utter disgrace' - Shadwell's Angus Gold blasts whip rules as speculation mounts Jim Crowley faces ban for Hukum ride
Westover (left) just came off second best to Hukum at Ascot Jim Crowley guides Hukum (blue and white silks) to King George glory Credit: Alan Crowhurst Jim Crowley faces a lengthy ban and a significant fine for overuse of the whip in his winning ride on Hukum in Saturday's King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes according to connections, who have described the prospect as disgraceful and called for the new whip rules to be relaxed. Crowley and fellow rider Rob Hornby, who finished a head second on Westover, were involved in a pulsating finish to the Ascot showpiece, but speculation intensified on Sunday that Crowley could face tough sanctions when the BHA publishes its latest batch of whip judgements on Tuesday. Since a tightening of the rules earlier this year, Flat jockeys are allowed to use their whip six times in a race, but face a four-day suspension if exceeding that limit once, with a seven-day ban incurred if a rider is two over. That penalty goes up to ten days for three strokes and 14 for four, and punishments are doubled for Class 1 or Class 2 races such as the King George. Four strokes over the limit also incurs disqualification, although connections do not believe Crowley has triggered this sanction. The rules were roundly criticised on Sunday by Angus Gold, the long-serving racing manager to Shadwell, which bred and race the Owen Burrows-trained Hukum and retain Crowley as their principal jockey. "I think you would find everybody in the racing community felt that was an outstanding race," Gold said. "There were two top-class horses with two excellent jockeys giving their all, which is what racing is all about. Jim Crowley holds up the trophy after Hukum wins the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Qipco Stakes Jim Crowley holds the King George VI And Queen Elizabeth Stakes trophy aloft after victory on Hukum Credit: Mark Cranham "I counted Jim hit the horse eight times – somebody told me it was nine – but if anyone thinks either of those jockeys beat their horses up they were watching a different race to me. Both jockeys were fantastic. "The fact the racing authorities have seen fit to bring in a rule that says a jockey gets banned for a ride like that is – in my opinion only – an utter disgrace. They are hanging racing out to dry." Gold, who worked for the Queen at her Sandringham Stud before joining the late Hamdan Al Maktoum's Shadwell operation, added: "I find it hard to believe the people who run our sport can feel there was anything wrong with that race. "They are playing to that dreadful word of perception. It was exactly what we need to attract people to our industry. It's easy for me to say because I'm involved with the winner, but there was a real buzz at Ascot and I think everyone knew they'd seen a fantastic race. "The people sat behind a desk who came up with a set number of times a horse can be hit should be hanging their heads in shame. I respect my colleagues and friends who don't agree with my view and I stress it is only my view, but I think it's time somebody stood up for racing. We should be proud of ourselves, we're a fantastic sport. "Everybody says this, but it is a fact, and these horses are looked after beautifully – I can say that because I've spent more than 45 years of my life in and around them. They are asked to extend themselves when they race – that's what they are there for – and that, yesterday, was exactly what we want to see." Angus Gold: Shadwell racing manager hopes there is more to come this season from Al Husn Angus Gold: "I think it's time somebody stood up for racing" Credit: Laura Green The new rules came into effect over jumps in February and were implemented a month later on the Flat, and Frankie Dettori and Oisin Murphy – two of the sport's star names – missed a chunk of July following whip offences at Royal Ascot this summer. "For our own authorities to make out that Jim has done something wrong is a disgrace," Gold added. "It's high time people got behind the participants in our sport. We're never going to change people who don't like racing and the number of times a horse is hit isn't going to make a difference to them as they want to ban racing full stop. "It would be one thing if an independent body was trying to make a fuss and I'm not trying to pick a fight here as I'm not a political man – I'm a racing man – but that was racing at its best, at the very highest level. I'm incredibly disappointed the gloss gets taken off by people who – on the whole – haven't ridden in races at this level and are using a really bad rule; it's a huge shame. "Would Jim have won if he'd used his whip three times less? Who knows? There's a chance he wouldn't have, but both horses and jockeys put on an incredible spectacle, which the crowd loved. There's something seriously wrong for that to get called into question." Gold said it would be too early to talk about any potential replacement for Crowley should he miss the ride on Mostahdaf, the horse officially rated the second best in the world who is due to contest York's Juddmonte International Stakes on August 23. The BHA was contacted by the Racing Post on Sunday and said any matters arising from Ascot's meeting on Saturday would be considered by the whip review committee on Tuesday. |
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It was exactly what we need to attract people to our industry. It's easy for me to say because I'm involved with the winner, but there was a real buzz at Ascot and I think everyone knew they'd seen a fantastic race.
The perception of many outside racing circles that hitting a horse with a whip is cruel [that is their perception] The BHA to be fair has to address the issue and have introduced guidelines that demonstrate their commitment to tackling the aforementioned perceptions of a minority but a minority that shout loud. Professional jockeys know what's expected of them and expect to pay a price for transgressing rules and regulations. There'll be no rowing back while the spotlight is firmly fixed on animal welfare so Angus Gold might as well fall into line. |
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Only a matter of time before the whip is done away with to ensure the future of the sport.
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I really hope that is correct, but any hope that it will be sooner rather than later is dwindling given the number of column inches given over to backward thinkers like Gold.
It's only an issue because they keep rearranging the deckchairs to appease people like Gold. He doesn't even realise that. Just forget the tinkering and get rid. |
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It is a ridiculous situation.
If you have a limit of 6 then surely 7 is breaking the rules so the horse should be disqualified. Otherwise what is the point if having a limit. And the situation should be dealt with immediately so punters are paid out. Also. If these whip rules are for the safety of the horse. Who came up with the idea that 6 strikes is ok for a horse, but 7 is definitely not?? |
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Hornby may have give Westover 7 cracks & so he should go on that
basis aswell.King Of Steel btn over 4Ls gets the race. |
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Reasons permitted for using the shelailigh by the BHA:
1. Safety - I get that fully especially if your steed is veering off into the river or the wing of an obstacle. So there is a solid case to retain the whip in the event that your life is flashing before your eyes 2. Correction If your steed is veering left and right and interferes with a horse or two it's at risk of getting demoted if it bumps one off course. Has to be a strong case to retain the whip otherwise steward's enquiries would be ubiquitous with horses getting disqualified more regularly. 3.Encouragement Grey area? This one riles up the welfare warriors. Their argument is that it's a sign that the horse doesn't want to go faster or even participate at all. Rather than do away with the shelailigh altogether why not permit jockeys to use the whip only when it's in the interest of safety or correction measures; rather than to whip it in a bid to make it go faster, or at the very least make it concentrate. |
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Some interesting stuff on here considering the great race it was. Crowley will pay for it and no doubt learn from it. The deterrent will be when he misses the Ebor meeting and some prize rides. Hornby was also over
Considering the cushion whip now I think the BHA are doing their job, it’s just a shame people like Frankie have just served a long period on the sidelines as he is missed but they know the new rules which are good but severe for those breaking the rules Angus Gold just making himself look a prat tbh |
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as it stands..... do ya think Crowley will be worse off for his misdemeanours......of course not from his employers
sport has descended into a farce beginning wiv horseracing  |
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Used to run a G/National sweep a work,in the last few years the amount of people especialy among the younger ones who would decline to take part because they thought racing was cruel meant that some of us old gits were having to keep more of the tickets so i jacked it in this year.
That is the future of racing at the coal face and not in the the Angus Gold's of this world, and i aint an advocate of gettin rid of the whip but trying to defend it to the youngsters is a lost cause. |
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Absolutely agree with Harry , its a no win situation for racing and they seem to have made the best out of it that they could . If jockeys cant get the message or cant take the sanction that results ,then more fool them . Most seem to realise its a new era .
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fair play to angus gold for coming out with that statement after losing a group one by a neck after jockey on winner broke the rules aggressively
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he was defending his cheating jockey.
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Who said they run faster for the strap across the @rse
A lot of past ‘horsemen’ said then don’t run faster for the whip…..it’s a panic button thing…..oh Fk ! Slash slash slash How the thicko (imo) Irish riders in the past at Cheltenham thought slashing down the neck would make a horse go faster beggars belief……cruelty imv…. You couldn’t make it up slashing to prove to one and all you are trying…..apart from the fodder…the don’t care about the fodder…. |