FOBT Restrictions could be set for OnLine - Slots/Casino games

Not sure what that piece means onlooker but reading earlier there are £500 stakes per line available out there , that was news to me must admit being a non player.

Likewise, Hayden - Same with the Machines ... I would not even know where to put my money in.

Why do you think all the shop managers got a bonus based on how many of their addicts they could get to download the app - just before the shop stakes were reduced?

Unreal really when you look back on it. You can't go to this special place to spank £100 per spin anymore (thats the law) but you can do it from anywhere else in the world you like (including in the shop) if you have internet access. - You couldn't make it up.

A guy said to me the other week he preferred slots to horse racing and definitely soccer every day of the week , his argument was that at least the machines pay out 95% or thereabouts and he could only dream of being just 5% down on horse racing and 20% down on soccer would delight him if there were any rebates being offered.

Couldn't debate the point as i'd little idea what the take outs were but imagine over 90% of punters would take a lifetime 5% loss on horses and 20% loss on soccer.

Would never defend slots but suppose he may have a valid point , that said it's a supposedly free country so each to their own how they spend their disposable.

Exactly Management all these do gooders the clergy the politicians who couldn't understand what they were on about the daily papers scandalous how thick some were thought they had succeeded with £2 spins all driven on - line shops shut all staff on the sausage probably much bigger problem now no policing except the good old GC. Instead of roulette its the slots now. Unbelievable Geoff.

There is no valid point there. Think about machine players doing their money 100x faster than horse or football gambling.

Slot spins are about every 20 secs and over thousands of spins it is an average of more like 9% per spin or worse (recent slots RTP's on fobts are 86% 20p, 88% 50p, 90% £1, 91% £2). So a typical slot player would have 100's of spins in no time at all. I doubt many horse racing punters have as many as 10 bets a day.

Basically allowed them to take their business "underground" and out of the public eye.

Hayden - with only 30 seconds between spins, the fact that it's ALWAYS ON and the opportunity to increase stakes - the 90%+ return on stakes is academic.

By my recconing if you started with £100 stakes and got back a flat 90% per spin, you would (on average) be down £88to after about 10 minutes*.

* Too lazy here to do the actual maths - but hopefully you get my gist.

You've educated me with those percentages storm alert , something i'd never have known or researched.

Main point i suppose is still , he's happy , horse racing punters are happy and i suppose on the rare occasion soccer punters must also be happy.

Variety is the spice of life.

* down by £88 after 10 minutes.

Storm Alert - sorry didn't see your post but agree.

Yes , thanks TM 

Trust me Hayden - he's NOT happy! Hence he puts the screen through!

You'd think they would call the police after the same fella has smashed the screen through 3 times?

But for some reason they don't!

I read all the things about slots being the "crack cocaine" of gambling.  How?  It's dull af.

I self-excluded on games & casino on BF a long while ago (as it was an easy way to have your account emptied before 2FA), but I keep my bookie accounts alive by taking up their free-spin offers.  How on earth is it supposed to be fun?  One hits "spin", the reels land, one does or does not win.  Not even the appeal of 1980s pub fruit machines with 'hold' and 'nudge' and flashing lights.  Just "bmm, bmm, bmm, bmm - no win" or "bmm, bmm, bmm, bmm - 20p".

We've all seen plenty of pens and things hit in-shop screens in the past TM , usually preceded by derogatory jockey remarks.

If only online betting forums had hidden cameras 

The scientists are probably still working on the one that will get you hooked longbridge.

For every 10 that do what you do (take the free spins and stop), they only need one to take the hook.

Watch Hyperlinx channel on YT, if people think customers arnt hindered playing slots online then they are wrong.
They have already brought in significant changes over time. You used to be able to deposit what you wanted, ratchet up the stake button and then set it to automatic and away it went.
Not anymore.

There will be people on here with more knowledge of the chemical/biological workings of gambling (how to maximise the rush, near-miss, dopamine, adrenalin, brain types, how the brain is wired etc) - but all the very best experts is the science of addiction are working for the games developers!

I think so many get hooked by roulette because of the "near miss" experience which in tests is shown to give the same chemical hit (reward) to your brain as a win. Roulette is pure genius when you consider how old it is. Pure evil but pure genius too.

Agree they are dull played by very dense people. It's crack cocaine because of the risk /reward pleasure sense in the brain being conditioned to need it every few seconds I guess. For me the best thing about horse racing is the anticipation and build up for the big races and just occasionally spotting potential earlier than the crowd. Aticipating Cheltenham/Aintree/Royal Ascot for weeks is brilliant as is the crack on the day.

@TM

"The scientists are probably still working on the one that will get you hooked longbridge."

They already did; I found Racing forty years ago :)

"I think so many get hooked by roulette because of the "near miss" experience"

I had not thought of that with roulette (and still cannot - explain of you would?) but it is certainly true of bingo and the lottery.

The way the wheel is ordered longbridge - All of the Even money shots - Odd/Even, Black/Red, High/Low - with a few exceptions - if you don't land in what you bet on, then what you bet on will be next door (on both sides!). Always a near miss - and hardened gamblers get the same rush from that as they do from a win.

If you get in trouble (which any player will do), the range of odds you can choose to chase at is unlimited - from very long odds-on, up to 35/1. So no matter how deep in a degenerate gets, they are still thinking they are only one spin away from getting it back!

Look at the wheel layout and the betting board layout - they are pure evil but also a thing of beauty/genius (imo).

Fair play that a team of chemists/biologist/psychologists etc can put together the most addictive games known to man in 2023 - but for the 17th or 18th Century, Roulette is very, very clever.

If you need proof of how clever and addictive it is - it is till separating fools from their money hundreds of years later!

The other thing with roulette (if you go along and watch some addicts in a real bricks and mortar casino) or observe an FOBT player - they really cant stop if they are winning or if they are losing. If winning, they are on a roll and can't stop. If losing, they are due a win and can't stop!

You can say that of all forms of gambling re addicts - but I think it's more prevalent with roulette. As a bare minimum, if your number comes up - the croupier leaves your stake on it when he pays you out. Everybody lets it spin again - waiting for the "repeat". So you never see anybody pick it up and stop on a winner!

Confess i've never set foot in a casino ever but couple of mates frequent on the odd weekend , they reckon the meals are good and inexpensive ( which doesn't surprise me at all ) but suspect if they were honest it's probably an expensive dine out by the time they leave the premises.

Have 4 brothers and aside from one who has a National bet every year the other three have never dipped into their pockets , took the 4 of them racing one day and the youngest plucked up the courage to tell me they'd had more than enough after two races and could they all hit the city centre , never again.

Showground material in betting shops are for the simple minded…..funny tunes and flashing lights like high street arcades

What next roll-a-penny….ffs…

Feed the beast and kick the machine ffs…..

Hayden, I used to play a bit of poker (cash games) back in time. I wish I had a pound for every p1ssed up 20 year old (straight out of the nightclub at 2am) saying wow - £2 for a full english breakfast is so cheap, how do they do it?!

Two trips to the cashpoint later - you see them standing outside at 4am trying to borrow the cab fare home from their pals. Rancid.

FOTF

you would no believe how much the shop takes on the  virtual racing.

hope you are well.

Ronnie.

Oh I’ve seen them punting it, I can imagine…..bring back the old extel…..

Many would say - The olds Extel (Commentary)  WAS 'Virtual Racing'.   

.... No, that's Thommo you are thinking of.

These apparent fiendishly designed games of little chance so addictive and manipulative that they have zero impact on the vast majority of the population.

And those who do succumb are victims that everyone else has to pay for.

(Until the logic collapses and they ultimately are punishable for trying to play them)

dusty - If you don't believe in addiction (or more realistically, you just don't understand it)..... What is your explanation for a man or woman with an IQ of 160, continuing to play on a slot game with a jackpot of £500, after he/she is £48k down please?

Its really hard to believe shop punters actually bet on virtual racing. Although some years ago when I was standing in bookies chatting to somebody and punter asked us to move so he could look at the virtual racing lists pinned up.

As I have repeated, Slots/ casino games will mimic stakes in shops. Online casinos will move away from the UK. We will have the same gambling laws as Germany.

And If online operators are not worried, they definitely should be, their time is up in the UK IMO. The glory profits from Covid is over.

Remember, guys and gals, The White Paper will be some highlights and groundwork. I wouldn't expect it to become law until 2025

When you look at how long it is taking (so far) and then factor in the "consultation" period and the political landscape (election, etc) - 2025 might be optimistic Trident!

@Storm Alert

"Its really hard to believe shop punters actually bet on virtual racing."

I asked a shop punter about this in the Lads shop off Kingsway a good few years ago (I'd dropped in to watch a race I had backed a horse in on here) and he said he bet on Virtuals as he needed something to do between races and "at least it wasn't bent like the dogs"

Its really hard to believe shop punters actually bet on virtual racing. Although some years ago when I was standing in bookies chatting to somebody and punter asked us to move so he could look at the virtual racing lists pinned up.

someone always wanted to see what you were standing in front of, law of the bookies.

The Management • February 23, 2023 11:55 AM GMT
dusty - If you don't believe in addiction (or more realistically, you just don't understand it)..... What is your explanation for a man or woman with an IQ of 160, continuing to play on a slot game with a jackpot of £500, after he/she is £48k down please?

Im fully aware of adiction, as has been mentioned Ive worked my way through many drugs over the years, some of which were more morish than others....but all of which I had to control myself.

As your example, for somebody with an IQ of 160 isnt the issue...its the person with an IQ of 160 who we are led to believe is too stupid/arrogant to realise where hes going wrong and addressing it.

... and to add, the state has used several reasonings for implementing rules, terrorism, sexual deviancy etc...

But to suggest the majority must suffer the indignities of personal information collection simply because a minority refuse to address their issues, is beyond the pale.

A state that says 'do as we say for the good of the few' that quickly just becomes 'do as we say'

As evidenced by you logic as to what happens when the afflicted refuse to play ball and continue to bypass the rules.

If you search on Amazon for a good, then from the results list them most expensive to least.
Look at the difference in prices between the most and least.

Why is that allowed?

dusty - Your response is self-contradictory. You say you understand addiction (from your personal experience with drugs) and yet you state (yet again) that gambling addicts are just too stupid, arrogant, lazy, feckless, etc to address their own issues. You are completely at odds with the science.

No it isnt

Im saying that if you have a drug addiction then you have to deal with it yourself, by finding the help or doing it yourself

Somebody may decide to abandon all responsibility in the act of losing all their money, but they still have to acknowledge the fact themselves and seek help.

All else are just excuses used in an attempt to justify crushing those without problems.

As Ive explained many times, your example of logic showed the true fallability of your argument. The victim in your opinion must be punished at somepoint to stop them continuing....making the whole process an utter sham

As requested, explain how a retailer can sell the same item for a hundred times more than another?

oh - and the only people trying to make the majority suffer to protect the minority - is the bookmakers!

It's a proactive attempt to cloud and derail the real issue. Lets avoid talking about the issue of "problem gamblers" and turn it into a debate about freedoms, civil liberties, etc.

it's so transparent, my dog can see through it!

They know who the "problem gamblers" are - they just can't afford/don't want to admit it or take the simple actions that would target only them.

read my last post

As requested, explain how a retailer can sell the same item for a hundred times more than another?

Why would I waste my time answering any of your questions when you can't answer any of mine?

dustybin23 Feb 23 13:39Joined: 29 Dec 08 | Topic/replies: 24,014 | Blogger: dustybin's blog
Im saying that if you have a drug addiction then you have to deal with it yourself, by finding the help or doing it yourself

I don't disagree with that - but that's just tackling the problem (after it has happened) and would be never ending - to resolve the problem or improve/reduce it long term - surely you would also tackle it at source.

You cant answer the questions
When you do you end up looking stupid fo parroting the lines fed you by big state ideology...which ultimately simply dictates what people can or cant do.
The more contrived the remedy the more illogical the outcome.

Now we see the narrowing of ideologs voicing the ID card things again, both representitive of what used to be opposite ideologies now converging into control.

You have nothing new to help your failed argument so until you do Ill get back to making money

dustybin23 Feb 23 13:41Joined: 29 Dec 08 | Topic/replies: 24,014 | Blogger: dustybin's blog
As Ive explained many times, your example of logic showed the true fallability of your argument. The victim in your opinion must be punished at somepoint to stop them continuing....making the whole process an utter sham

You've made that up! - I said they should be prevented, disincentivised, deterred,

No you said they would likely end up losing their job, punished as people attempting to purchase contraband

I would let you explain then how you would disuade somebody using unauthorised slot providers....but I absolutely cant be bothered with you flawed logic anymore

Good Luck - it's lucky for you that you don't need to bet with bookmakers imo. Which at least explains why you  are not bothered by the prospect of them completely abandoning gambling in favour of gaming.

I pay 40% for the privilege
Why dont you, and get over your weeping pathetic parroting of enforced doctrine?

I don't think there is much of a long-term future for you (effectively) working as Betfair employee. I think most PC payers have realised that and moved into something more lucrative.

You are 20 years too late! - but I genuinely hope you get your life back on track (financially at least) before it ends. Ironic, that you are (imo) in a race against time - and yet you are arguing on the side that will ultimately accelerate the end of what you are doing. GL.

You keep saying good luck, its got nowt to do with luck.

Your assumptions are as weak are your arguments. Ive just had the best start to a year in 20 years, never had so much as more than a losing month in that time and wont be asked for AC at any point.

But if you are going to be wrong, you might as well go big.

dustybin23 Feb 23 14:06Joined: 29 Dec 08 | Topic/replies: 24,019 | Blogger: dustybin's blog
You keep saying good luck, its got nowt to do with luck.

You are a skill based PC payer then? - but you aren't bothered about the bookmakers risking/gambling with skill based play - in order to hang on at any cost to their games of chance

I couldnt careless what they do regarding the things I dont use.
Why should all other areas of trade develop to the point they attempt to maximise profit and bookmaking industry have to stay the same.

If they did then the exchange wouldnt ever have been invented.

There is a unique product that they could utalise further under the circumstances, if they do/dont I wont care much because what made me win wasnt what bf gave me, its what potential I already have.

Ask Mr IQ160 how much fookin common sense he has....

I have no idea what you are trying to say there - what I take from it is that (like many) you wouldn't be a winner without Betfair, and at a guess, like most PC payers, you wouldn't be a winner without In-Running.

That's fair enough, been there, done that -  the bit that annoys me, is that you really don't give a toss about the game or its future, apart from being able to keep doing what you are doing. Like I said 9given what you are doing), it's pretty ironic that you are in a race against time (imo).

the bit that annoys me, is that you really don't give a toss about the game or its future

Your stupidity is remarkable.

You waffle on about how the propsed reulation is good and bookies bad and yet when people within the industry who have cause for concern and put forth those concerns about the fact the weeping cross party and latterly the GC show no concern in seperating the activities of gambling and gaming, you call them out as stooges.

Im not responsible you you stupidity, its not my job to have to keep picking up your failed logic.

You 'been there done that' pmsl, and chose to close down a profitable avenue by choice I suppose?

Im sorry it comes to this eachtime, but really you are a moron that is tedious to 'debate' with.

Everything everybody "in the Industry" has to say is in the context that everybody in the industry is directly or indirectly utterly dependant on "bookmakers" - and it is only ever reported (in a very pro-bookmaker way) via the "Trade Paper" (which is a bookmaker sponsored rag). But you still think I'm the one that is falling for the false narrative!


From one moron to another - Bonjour.

You asked why do I keep referencing the fact the GC have no interest in making bookies take ppl's bets...

Well here we are yet again, if you cant see why then again I have to explain the failings of the basis of your logic.

You implying that your stance is good for the future of the game (while laughably mine that says it needs to be as little regulated as possible to encourage it) is leveraged on the only possible argument; that punishing slot creating bookies enough would somehow improve sports betting by them being forced to do what?
Concentrate on the sport?
Firstly , how under ever more stringent regulation that stops ppl betting on it by default?
And/Or that by some leap of faith it punishes slots to such an extent that they restablish bookmaking?

There is no line of evidence that they will be encouraged to offer a sports betting product, or be allowed to under greater regulation.

Especially when nobody else are looking to enter this field and America is ever more inviting

You are so pointless.
On a bookie forum constantly denouncing the industry and promoting the whims of those hell bent on stifling it....and you think you are a supporter of it?

Constantly attempting to argue that you arnt supporting ideology that restricts people without problems while attempting to save those too arogant to save themselves...then to have to punish them commie style having had to spy on everyone to catch them.

The land of the free (and the home of prohibition) is looking like, rather than learn from what has happened here, it will mimic it and liberalise gambling.

I wouldn't want to live in a land where somebody can do their bollix anytime, anywhere but can also carry a firearm. Smashing up the screens will look like Sunday School.

Prohibition doesn't work but neither did the wild west. If only there was something in-between.

But its ok for 'retailers' to advertise good massively overpriced in an attempt to catch somebody who is too stupid to realise they beeing fleeced?

You say dumb things daily, but 'been there done that' takes the biscuit today.

All David Brent style, you must have been amazing at it and chosen to give it up just because you got bored of winning and not cos you cant do it.

Its absoultely not the source of your vindictiveness but infact is down to you weeping over the arogance of those who dont realise they doing their brains and cant see how.

dustybin23 Feb 23 14:53Joined: 29 Dec 08 | Topic/replies: 24,025 | Blogger: dustybin's blog
pure cnt

So angry, bitter and disillusioned - absolutely ripe for the lies and manipulation. Your constant use of the word "commie" reveals your inability to think anything that isn't one-dimensional nonsense.

so forcing the whole public into falling in line whether they have problems or not just to accomodate those who do...and then to punish anyone who attempts to avoid the imposed safeguards after spying on everyone....isnt commie?

Think you need a crash course in ideology you thick cnt

Living in a world full of colour - but still watching in black and white, unable to even see a shade of grey.

All or nothing, left or right, right and wrong, good and bad. What a simple life you must lead.

I try and keep it simple but effective
Turn up win money put stupid back in its box.
Ta

Ill run rings round you all day long

This really is my last post to you!

FWIW - regarding "been there and done that" - between 2000 and about 2008, I could have trained a monkey with no bananas and no skills to unwittingly make himself a victim of the upcoming PC (I chose the word victim on purpose to outrage you!) - but given how it was introduced (retrospectively) - it's an accurate description.

After it was introduced - the monkeys with no other source of bananas, no other skills but time on their hands had to like it or lump it and effectively became collaborators or full time Employees of Betfair.

My best year was actually 2002, it was beyond what I had ever thought possible - but tempted as I was - and much as I may have wanted to, I still couldn't jack in the rat race due to the salary/package/pension/bonuses that  I was on. Despite another very satisfactory 6 years or so after that, I know I made the right decision - wife, children, mortgage, up for another promotion, the uncertainty, the lack of guarantees, the 2008 crash, the IPO, PC, etc.

I am sorry you are a monkey with no other skills or source of bananas - and that you now (through no fault of your own) are forced to work for Betfair. But don't get cocky about it, I feel sorry for you that other choices were not available to you. If I had gone with my heart (instead of my head) - I would probably have got 6 very good years out of it - but would now be as trapped, angry and bitter as you.

Go to bed ffs

Only having to explain logic to stupid angers me, I have an awful lot to be grateful for.

Ta for the life story I didnt want, but it explains a lot.
If you honestly think Im here to work for bf due to them taking 40% of a very successful time here, and believing that this is the lesser of other options you are particularly daft.

Nobody works too hard for too little reward. With ingenuity comes that reward. The last 20 years of you being that rat I was doing what I wanted by doing so little and getting well rewarded for it.

Ive always said, for me to get in trouble and get my feet wet by a rising tide of problems, 90% of the population would already have drown.

Yeah - sorry for the life story. Just felt we had hit that point agian, where you couldn't articulate your argument and had resorted to name calling (cnt, etc) and claiming to have a bigger c0ck than me.

Fascinating but pointless.

We had hit that point if by hitting that point you meant your argument went tits up again and all you could do is flap around taking bollox

Remember, guys and gals, The White Paper will be some highlights and groundwork. I wouldn't expect it to become law until 2025


It won't be law for ages, but it will tell the bookies which directions they might want to go in (or not) in the meantime so as to protect themselves later on. Any sort of indication that the future route of travel won't revolve around intrusive and easily-to-manipulate affordability checks will be very welcome, but I won't be holding my breath...

Any chance you two could knock this cretinous argument on the head, please? Neither of you are going to 'win' this one, but if one of you has the self-control to simply walk away, I suspect most of us will consider you to be the smarter one.

Keyboard arguments ffs

You don't have to read it Joe - any single thread is easily avoided. When it descends to the level where I have to get my c0ck out in public, I usually leave it to the fella that has had more experience of doing so.

So yeah, I'm done for today.

Certainly Ive more experience winning.

You don't have to read it Joe - any single thread is easily avoided

It may seem a bizarre concept, but I did actually come here for the thread topic!

Genuine apologies - if I prevented you or anybody else from making a contribution or expressing a view/opinion Joe.

Ironic really, that the thread was started due to the sole focus having been deliberately shifted (by the Industry) onto "Affordability Checks". To the extent that a knowledgable (imo), long-term contributor to the forum was not even aware of the scope of the review.

The opening poster implies he had no knowledge of on-line (FOBT) stakes being reviewed. Perhaps with the focus having been entirely shifted onto so-called Affordability Checks", he had no knowledge of possible changes to the funding of treatment, marketing rules, advertising rules, sponsorship rules, promotions, on-line stakes, child protection, etc, etc.

It's almost like somebody somewhere has made it all about "Affordability Checks", (including the coining of that phrase to describe it!) in order to divert attention and rabble raise.

When those demanding change of some sort wont separate gambling and gaming, what alternative way would you have come up with with the single task of limiting betting if not AC?

Magic perhaps?

Time to let Joe and anybody else have their say imo dusty.

I don't think anybody has been left in any doubt about what you or I think.

The scrap yard dog…..you can’t let go….ffs

joe bloggs has to divulge all sorts of information to get 2 quid on a horse because the bookies successfully got someone hooked on rainbow riches and he lost 300k

sounds reasonable ...

'Somebody' should have asked to be restricted at oooh 250k, once the penny dropped, if ever it does.

One person's struggles ....

"I feel like iv hit rock bottom after spending my evening gambling yet again last night.  I'm so sick of feeling this way week after week. The guilt and shame a dread of the more debt mounting up is killing me. Iv been trying to stop for over two years now and just can't. But I can't live like this. It all started in lockdown with a ... bet when I was bored one evening....I won ... and thought it was the best thing ever so easy... better than buying a scratch card I said... which I never even really did bank then.  Now I'm spending thousands in one night on online slots and hundreds on piles of scratch cards it's insanity. I thought I'd stop when lockdown ended but I couldn't thought I'd stop as a new years resolution...but I couldn't. This is my last chance now. I hate this feeling and hate who I have become. And tips and advice welcome please ....I have all the blocks in place. Thankyou ....thankyou I already have the blocks in place but unfortunately I go on the casinos that are rouge and not on gamban that is what I have been using for the last year. I have gambling blocks on my bank but they put them through as different things so they pass through the blocks so there is no way to stop me going on them  ...thankyou dafoldil...I have the blocks in place and I'm going to hand over my finances to my partner when I get paid tomorrow... I'm on day 2 now and the guilt and shame is still very strong...I know it will take time... been reading your posts well done on 22 days!! You must feel very proud

While people who support the attack on gambling will no doubt cite these stories, what I suspect they will also do is apply selective reasoning.

Conveniently ignore the mention of scratch cards and the general mentality of the individuals to efficiently bypass any limiting factor applied.
As I’ve said, people will always find another way to lose, it’s the individual desire to stop that is the only thing that will stop it now, you can’t put the genie back.

If you don’t have the common sense to help yourself, no amount of outside intervention will do it.
These products have their place, if you abandon yourself to them (or indeed anything) then you will ultimately come a cropper.

Try buying your monthly shopping down the convenience store for eg, you’ll go broke.

Only the strong survive…..

There are two things that require immediate attention from that post above.

A quick google of "casinos that are rouge and not on Gamban (or Gamstop)" and there are plenty of sites listing them.  Make it a requirement that gambling sites must be and enforce it

and also if you have gambling blocks on your bank account make sure they are fully updated.