new book about Brigadier Gerard

is it written by Brigust ?!

Yes.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/insight/better-than-frankel-reinforcements-i...

Best hoss on the turf
Breeding wise
Frankel kicks him in the dust

Frankel is only the 7th best horse of all time ffs

The book has its own website (and is published by Brigust Books) from where you can buy it.
https://www.brigadiergerardandme.co.uk/

jimnast 17 Jul 22 14:06 

Frankel is only the 7th best horse of all time ffs
-----------

That does appear to be an absurd claim.

Off the Top of My Head - The Claim must be including Horses like ...

Secretariat  - Ribot - Sea-Bird - Dancing Brave - possibly, Phar Lap .... and maybe even ... Sceptre 

Whatever -

There were NO International Classifications when Brigadier Gerard was running -

International Classifications were first published in the mid-1970s ... and they ran at an INFLATED OVERALL LEVEL for ALL Levels of Group Races for some considerable time, too - most especially compared to Today's LEVELS ...

So Direct comparisons are NOT possible ... Other than, say, using Timeform - BUT ...

Timeform, too - Have always run at a HIGHER LEVEL (Throughout their whole Range - just as Racing Post Ratings Also Do) than Official Ratings ....

So - Double-Up the Issue/Problem, then -

As Nothing is at all simply - 'Black and White'.

I should think roberto would have to be one of the six onlooker

Jimnast

Sure he beat BG at York, but only won 1 of his next 5 races, Timeform rated him 131, way down the pecking order

Timeform's ratings for the flat

147     Frankel
145     Sea-Bird
144     Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
142     Abernant, Ribot
141     Mill Reef
140     Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Harbinger, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble
139     Arrogate, Generous, Pappa Fourway, Reference Point

Almost all of that list from AT won top races over 12f but Frankel never tried it.

That’s correct Andrew it was tongue in cheek my comment as the author is so biased towards bg I felt he must consider roberto to be one of the all time greats.

Sprinter sacre never tried the gold cup trip but that doesn’t stop him been the most talented chaser of the last 50 years.

That’s correct Andrew it was tongue in cheek my comment



I think distance in horse racing is not an issue, is Usain Bolt an also ran because he only raced over 100/200 metres.

Tudor Minstrel, one of the all time greats never won over 10f/12f on the only occasion tried at each trip (rated 144). Abernant was a sprinter (rated 142).

Agree Andrew sugar ray leonard the greatest boxer of all time never fought at heavyweight George best the most talented footballer ever never played in a World Cup let alone win one.Barry richards one of the greatest batsman ever never played many meaningful games at international level,

Andrew.in.Sweden 17 Jul 22 15:44 
That’s correct Andrew it was tongue in cheek my comment

Laugh

I think distance in horse racing is not an issue, is Usain Bolt an also ran because he only raced over 100/200 metres.

Tudor Minstrel, one of the all time greats never won over 10f/12f on the only occasion tried at each trip (rated 144). Abernant was a sprinter (rated 142).





I think we must take the classic distances as to how we judge the best horses.

Dayjur one of the best horses I've ever seen

Reference Point would have given Dancing Brave a nice lead until being blown away, imo
One pound diff is strange.

Absolutely a-t and what a hurdler he would have made the speed at which he could jump was breathtaking.

We’re timeform ratings not available from 1979

You can only beat what you have around you at the time.

The problem with rating Frankel was that he never raced against a really top  class horse.

The best he beat was probably Cirrus Des Aigles (130) who he beat one and three quarter lengths at level weights.

Being generous I would have him around 136. (BHA 140)

I respect anyone's opinion, the betting game is dependent on it.

Barstool, you are forgetting Excelebration (rated 125) who he beat 11L

Sir nicholas abbey and fahr were not to shabby either and let’s not forget canford cliffs all of which he demolished,regarding cirrius frankel only ran that day on the bad ground because so many from around the globe had come to say farewell to a horse who had lit up racing for 3 seasons the connections felt it would be unfair to disappoint them,

Andrew,

Side Glance 113 was a neck behind Excelebration and anothe 108 rate horse a couple of lengths behind.

Maybe Exelbration ran below par that day.

Side glance 11 lengths behind frankel in Queen Anne

It was the Queeen Anne I was referring too.

Apologies for not making that clear.

Frankel's generation was exceptional - during his 4yo season almost no Group 1 WFA races were won by 3yos. Conversely in his 3yo season virtually all the top all-age races were mopped-up by his fellow 3yos

I very much doubt that generation was superior to the 1970 one.

You only have to compare the 2000 guineas fields.

Even I agree frankels Guineas was the worst ever assembled taking out him of course sparrow,can’t really remember the opposition Nijinsky faced in 1970

What is a fact frankel destroyed every field he came up against bar the st James palace but even on his of day he won,others great champions were beaten on there of days.

Sorry jimnast as I meant 1971 race in which Brigadier beat Mill Reef and My Swallow. I simply can't believe that Frankel wouldn't have stayed 12f and as a result cannot rate him alongside Ribot, Sea Bird and others that have been mentioned.

I knew you meant 71 sparrow regarding 12 furlongs the way he won at York and ascot I think he would have got the trip at the highest level but we will never know.

I tend to agree jimnast but many Frankel fans said he wouldn't and others claimed it was because Cecil was a sick man and didn't want to risk the horse.

I think you have been around long enough sparrow to know people talk utter nonsense about racing that unforgettable day at ascot sir Henry risked him on unsuitable ground for the sake of the paying public and to be fair teddy grinthorpe

You only have to compare the 2000 guineas fields.

BG had Mill Reef (not a miler) but My Swallow was already a spent force - never got close to winning another race

The greatest ever single season was by Sea The Stars.

Group 1s from 8f to 12f - a win in every month from May to October including the Derby and Arc - Europe's 2 most prestigious races.

Every race but one overseas - clear daylight over everything he defeated. He was better than Dancing Brave and I doubt I'll see one as good as him again.

Mill Reef was a very pacy animal and a very, very high class one, to say he was not a miler is a bit unfair, the only horse he could not beat at that distance was Brigadier Gerard. Mill Reef was top class from 8f -12f as was Brigadier Gerard. We have never had two horses as good as three and four year olds and will be very lucky to ever again.

Always thougt it was a pity Sea the Stars did not go for the Triple Crown aged 3 and for the Arc as a 4yo.

As you sat A_T, some horse!.

frankel was the best uk flat horse I have seen.
But he was campaigned very conservatively.

The Aussies offered to fly Frankel over and have him take on Black Caviar over 7f I believe.
Then when BC travelled over to the ROyal meet connections of Frankel avoided a potential race for the ages by running in the Queen Anne. At odds of about 10 to one on i believe.

Black Caviar got injured in the Golden Jubilee but still won. She was never off the bridle until inside the last  furlong when Jockey Luke Nolen realised something was amiss and got after her.
I have rarely seen a G1 spring won in such a fashion.

I think Mick Channon got it right when he said that Black Caviar was a better horse than Frankel.

Well if mick channon said it,it must be true,black caviar won over 6 furlongs straight after the lockinge everyone was aware frankel would go Queen Anne,incidentally black caviar was 1/6 when the horse just got home in the diamond jubilee.

Sea the stars was just about the perfect racehorse and had a fabulous constitution to achieve what he did,never missed a gig and saved the best till the last,

Completely agree about Sea The Stars - so consistent - so predictable - and ridden by Mr Dependable

Just reading that Joe Mercer's top three were Ribot, Sea Bird and Brigadier Gerard.

Have  just bought this book and look forward to reading it, have always enjoyed Brigust's posts and though there will be an understandiable bias in his views, they'll be more trustworthy than Mr Hislops in the ' The Brigadier' book ( which I've read twice and first read in the mid 1970's), in which he penned a chapter probably  back fitting  a tale on how his so called genius pedigree interpretation led to him chosing Queens  Hussar as the stallion to send his mare to - in an obituary by Tony Morris, Hislop chose QH as he stood local and was cheap!

A_T  Dayjur one of the best horses I've ever seen

Couldn't jump a fence though

If youre going to name a horse the best of all time then you have to beat the best around in your era.
So frankel. No.

As for Sea the stars. He never raced after his 3yo career. He would surely have kicked Workforce @ss but we will never know. Still, at 250k a pop in the breeding shed i guess his owners couldnt give a flying one.

Dancing Brave a better horse than STS. What would he have done to The Delegator, Youmzain and plodder Fame and Glory?

Well here's mytwopennorth! I've been watching racing for over 60 years and one horses acceleration stands out in my memory. It took my breath away then and nothing since has compared with that feeling I had. Sure, any horse can only beat its own generation but my vote goes to…..Shergar.

Has evryone forgotten about El Gran Senor?
Won the strongest ever 2,000 Guineas easily and only P.Eddery riding a terrible race did he not win The Derby easily!

In terms of what the beaten horses in the derby went on to achieve then Troy has to be high up in the great middle distance horses.

I would look at the Arc to judge the best 12f horses.

1965: three-year-old season
As a three-year-old, Sea-Bird won all five starts, starting with a three-length win in the Prix Greffulhe. He next appeared in the Prix Lupin, which he won by six lengths from Diatome.

In The Derby, Sea-Bird started as the 7/4 favourite in a field of twenty two. There was an incident the night before the race in which police and security staff repelled a gang which had attempted to enter the stable of the 2000 Guineas winner Niksar. Before the race, Sea-Bird was described as looking "plain and high". He raced on the outside behind the leaders until the turn into the straight and then moved up to take the lead on the bridle with Glennon sitting "still as a statue". Sea-Bird won effortlessly by two lengths from Meadow Court, who went on to win the Irish Derby and the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes, with I Say in third.Timeform said of his victory: "Sea-Bird's performance at Epsom had to be seen to believed. He beat his twenty-one opponents without coming off the bit."

In July, Sea-Bird ran in the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud, which he won, easing down, by two and a half lengths from Couroucou.[16] He was then rested until the autumn.

In the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, Sea-Bird faced a very strong field, including Irish Derby winner Meadow Court, Preakness winner Tom Rolfe, French Derby (Prix du Jockey Club) winner Reliance, Prix de Diane winner Blabla and Russian Derby winner Anilin. Starting at odds of 6/5, Sea Bird won easily despite veering across the track, with jockey Pat Glennon patting him down the neck in the final 100 yards, by six lengths (though photographs of the finish show it to have been closer to four and a half lengths) from Reliance. Five lengths further back in third place was Diatome (though photographs show it to have been closer to four lengths), who went on to win the Washington, D.C. International. Fourth place went to Free Ride, fifth was Anilin and sixth was Tom Ro

if you watch Sea The Stars' Guineas again it's like he's not even really trying - just out for a stroll - fabulous racehorse

Come to think of it the way the derby is now and the way horses are campaigned the 79 derby will most probably never be bettered in terms of form and the winner won 7 lengths.

There were times sparrow when the king George was the strongest 12 furlongs race but nowadays yes it’s the arc

I would agree jimnast although Ribot might have had something to say about that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RQuqKVJvII

I was meaning a bit later the ribot 70sand 80s

Yes I knew you would be, but I do agree just the same.

one thing to bear in mind is that there are twice as many foals now as there were in the 60s/70s - the potential talent pool is much bigger so competition stronger

Fair point a-t

I think the biggest issue between The Brigadier and Frankel is the visual one...he won so many races by doing just enough .
At the end of the day one was never beaten whilst the other won a King George proving himself over 12 furlongs ....

Dick Hern thought Nashwan was better than BG. And I agree.  STS and Frankel both better than those two.  Best 12f and best horse respectively in my lifetime.

barstool , Excelebration  didn't run his optimum race in the Queen Anne because he was ridden to try and win the race but that meant staying in touch with Frankel.

I'm sure a new best of a lifetime horse will emerge before the end of this decade or the next.

Don't hold yer breath. They are still waiting in US. Secretariat ( '73 )

Excelebration was a top class miler - as long as Frankel wasn't in it he won every mile race worth winning in Europe

I would take more notice of the majors opinion than that of mick channon,

Sparrow I can really only go back to 77 In what I’ve seen and in 86 I saw the best I thought I would ever see it was 26 years later as a 4 year old I saw a better one ,as Howard pointed out it’s a long time since Americans saw a better one than secretariat.

Its all about opinions though jimnast and I base mine on the form of the horses they had beaten. My view of Frankel was that he might well have been the best had he been raced more competitively and not confined to distances between 7f and 10f and restricted to race only in this country.

According to ratings ( timeform and others ) he put up the best performance.  So whatever anyone says about distances opposition etc. at worst he would still be the best.  If he had run in a heavy ground Arc and finished nearer last than first he would still be the best.  Secretariat I think got beat 5 times.

Those who said he beat nothing were given examples earlier of the very good horses he beat easily one that was not mentioned was Nathaniel.

HRAC is on record saying Frankel would have even been better as a 5 year old.

The cynics will say 'he would say that' but Henry never called a duck a swan.

for me perhaps the greatest horse in terms of overall achievements is Enable - this may raise eyebrows with many but I always think the 2 most prestigious races in Europe open to all-comers are the King George and the Arc - she won these races 5 times and nearly won a 3rd Arc.

Some years ago on this forum the author of the book talked about the Timeform rating of Excelebration in comparison to Royal Palace who had won the 2000 gns, The Derby,Eclipse, Coronation Cup and the King George. In The Eclipse he had beaten Sir Ivor and in the Derby Ribocco who went on to win the Irish Derby and the Arc winner was behind him in the King George. Despite all that Excelebration was rated 2lb higher which Timeform had to do to justify the Frankel rating.

It's all hearsay but really can't have that Frankel was
7LB better than Dancung Brave.

We say that seeing is believing and anyone under 50 will struggle to understand that there may have been horses around such as Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef that might have been  better than Frankel. Tudor Minstrel was before my time and I did not see Ribot race so it is hard for me to comprehend how they could be better than the three I mention, but they may well have been.

Frankel was a great racehorse of course but there may well have been a few better than him too.

Dick Hern also said that Alhaarth was the best two year old he had trained. As with Nashwan, could he have just been saying what the owners wanted to hear?