Gosden and Dettori

It looks as though they are calling it a day. A shame for things to end like that. Still I imagine Frankie will get plenty of offers especially from the TV.

If its happened the way Dettoris agent says, without them even telling him or Dettori, then that is a Disgrace.

By David Milnes, Newmarket correspondent
UPDATED 6:59PM, JUN 23 2022

Frankie Dettori's business manager said on Thursday the rider would "have to move on with whatever John and Thady Gosden have done" after he lost rides on the yard's runners at Newmarket on Saturday.

Peter Burrell said he and Dettori were "in the dark as much as anyone else" after James Doyle and Robert Havlin were chosen to ride for the Gosdens, despite the three-time champion jockey being available to take the mounts.

The move came a week after John Gosden strongly criticised his number one jockey for his riding at Royal Ascot, chiefly when beaten in the Gold Cup on Stradivarius.

'We're in the dark'

The shock news prompted speculation over whether last week's high-profile criticism marked the end of their hugely successful partnership, with Betfair installing Hollie Doyle as 4-11 favourite to take over as the primary rider at Clarehaven Stables.

Burrell said: "Frankie rang up the Gosden office this morning to discuss riding plans for the weekend, as he usually does, but didn't get a call back. We're in the dark as much as anyone else, which is a strange position to be in.

"We only have questions, not answers. We know absolutely nothing, so we'll have to put the jigsaw together ourselves. Whatever John and Thady have done, we'll all have to move on with."

James Doyle takes over on favourite Sunray Major – who has been ridden in all bar one of his races by Dettori – in the House of Cavani Criterion Stakes, while Havlin, second jockey at Clarehaven Stables, rides Stowell in the House of Cavani Fred Archer Stakes, and Mimikyu in the 1m4f fillies' handicap.

Dettori, who has been on holiday in Sardinia this week, has one ride at Newmarket on Saturday, partnering Lezoo in the Listed Maureen Brittain Memorial Empress Fillies' Stakes for trainer Ralph Beckett and owner Marc Chan.

The absence of Dettori on any Gosden-trained runners comes a week after a public outburst by John Gosden following the defeat of Stradivarius in the Gold Cup at Royal Ascot.

I agree 1830.  Very shabby but then so were his Ascot failed rides. However, at the end of the day that;s racing.  Gosden and son don't have to explain themselves to anyone but their owners.

I was looking for opinions on the reason.. His current ability or his integrity.. ?

Personally i think it is a disgrace the way big john has handled this.Dettori is one of the best Jockeys in the history of the sport  and yes a couple of bad rides at Royal Ascot but to be dumped like this is shocking behaviour by Gosden.

Big John has always been a ruthless fooker though, he got Mace Roberts the boot from the Sheik Mo job as he didn't think he was good enough,Jimmy Fortune didn't even see it coming and i still dont think he ever got over it now it's Frankie's turn and being one of the greatest of all time counts for nothing.

just smack the tall stuck up prik in the face and be done with it

All great partnerships come to an end, don't know the in and outs of their relationship so can't comment but must of been a very strong one with the achievements they did. Whatever happens in the now and present, the past will always be re-run, that's what greats do.

All we need is a repeat of this

Miss me?

Piggott to the Coolmore team, his former employers, after his replacement Pat Eddery was beaten on El Gran Senor by Secreto in the 1984 Derby

???  Why would Coolmore want Dettori?  Could see one of the up-and-comers maybe taking him for half a season to see how it goes.  Archie Watson.  George Boughey. Tom Clover.  Any of these three would love his experience.  Maybe even Rafe Beckett because even at 50 Frankie is way, way better than Hornby.
But I think part of the problem with Frankie is physical.  He doesn;t ride regularly enough now and just got too cozy and comfortable with the plum rides and easy life of riding Gosden's group horses.  He looked as weak as hell on everything at Ascot.
He's been absolutely brilliant.  Let's see if he can bounce back from this very shoddy treatment.

Didn't Gosden give Frankie a career back after the coke ban?

Frankie has a lot to thank Gosden for. There seems to have been tensions building for a while, Stradivarius in Gold Cup and Palace Pier in Elizabeth 11 a couple of examples from last year I can remember. The ride on Stradivarius in this years Gold Cup looked like blind panic in the straight and was poor by Dettori standards. But the ride on Saga was worse as he chose to hold him up so far off the pace and being the Queens horse probably upset far Gosden more.

If the reports are true then not handled well by Gosden. I just hope Dettori deals with it with aplomb and gracefully.

GOSDEN is a typical privileged chinless wonder with no bottle.

Regardless of the merits of the current form of DETTORI even if he’s correct (which I thinks is debatable to say the least) he should have the balls and the grace to tell him face to face like a man.

Probably fed up with Dettori's attitude riding these days, seems to only ride at weekends or big meetings. On holiday in Sardinia this week ffs

Get a stable jockey in that wants to put the hard work in and a team player.

Dettori is always keen to make it about him when he wins and doesn't seem to like the criticism of his crappy riding

Whatever the rights or wrongs regarding the ride in the Gold Cup and other matters relating to the working relationship .....one party in this saga has imo lost a lot of credibility in speaking to the media on it ,rather than in private.

The boss is always right. You have to take what he says and not sulk about it. Gosden mentioned his attitude as much as the riding. I would guess if he had admitted mistakes and kept a smile on his face we wouldn't be here.

It appears that there was a lot going on behind the scenes that Johnny G wasn't happy with, and ascot wasthe final straw.

Dettori at ascot was woeful, stradivarius saga and even inspiral was a poor ride but the horse had about 4 stone in hand, not forgetting Emily in the oaks.

Any other jockey would have been hounded out of the spirt for their misdemeanours over the years.

I do think though that the Gold Cup horse wouldn't have won whatever the jockey had done. Past his best and also never as good as Gosden made out  ( v. **** , Le Moss , Ardross etc )

y e a t s

Agreed strad wouldn't have won but still a poor ride.

Gosden said on Friday morning that Dettori had been in Italy for a wedding in the week before Royal Ascot, at a time when he could have been in to ride work on some of his potential mounts.

and this week on holiday, thats not good


By David Milnes, Newmarket correspondent
UPDATED 9:13AM, JUN 24 2022
 
John Gosden is planning to have a face-to-face meeting with Frankie Dettori on Friday to discuss their future together as speculation rumbles on about the jockey's position as number one rider at Clarehaven Stables in Newmarket.

The summit comes a day after it was revealed Dettori was not booked for key rides for the John and Thady Gosden yard at Newmarket on Saturday despite being available. The move comes in the wake of some strong criticism he received from Gosden snr for his riding at Royal Ascot last week, including on Stradivarius in the Gold Cup.

Dettori has only one ride at Newmarket on Saturday, Lezoo for Ralph Beckett in a Listed race. His regular Gosden mounts Sunray Major (James Doyle) and Stowell (Rab Havlin) have gone to other riders.


Gosden said on Friday morning that Dettori had been in Italy for a wedding in the week before Royal Ascot, at a time when he could have been in to ride work on some of his potential mounts.

Speaking on the Newmarket gallops, Gosden said: "Frankie was in Italy for a wedding in the week before Royal Ascot. Obviously he was at Ascot all last week and he then went to Sardinia after racing on the Saturday. I assume he will be back in the UK today when I will be able to see him for a meeting."

know all 24 Jun 22 09:58 
Gosden said on Friday morning that Dettori had been in Italy for a wedding in the week before Royal Ascot, at a time when he could have been in to ride work on some of his potential mounts.

....................

Some press mischief going on as always, his quote was measured and never mentioned that he could have been riding work.

They are both good at their jobs but both equally unlikeable for different reasons.
Nearing the end of their careers the lack of class is showing

frankie taken eye off the ball, royal ascot and he is not in to ride work ffs maybe a week on the hiss who knows and turns up cold no wonder he wasnt at his best, punters knowing that would have second thoughts backing his mounts imo

I was surprised that Gosden was critical post race, his normally perfect manners have always covered any annoyance on camera. Something been brewing for sure.

Dettori could have a year off and still be better than Rab Havlin.
Let him keep riding your hosses Johnboy, see how you get on. YSC

Well we seen that at ascot didn't we

I'm not sure top jockeys always ride their potential mounts work at home. Many a time a jockey will say at the races that it was the first time they had sat on the horse since it ran last. I remember O'Brien saying he didn't like Lester on his horses before their races because he would be asking them too much. Sounds like a bit of backtracking to me. I also think JG is the old school, subservience and all that. Not easily take any answering back.

Frankie is in his fifties of course he's not getting any better, he can't get his son in to help him in the saddle like old Johnboy can in his job

Even more reason why this is grotesque. JG and Nielsen should know better.

^^Even if they are right, but I don't think they are.

IF AND ONLY IF IT IS A PARTING OF THE WAYS.............JG HAS THE RIGHT TO MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS FOR HIS OWNERS OR HE COULD LOSE THEM.......HOWEVER

If they are parting........this could have been done privately rather than JG handling it like this

IMHO things have not got better since Thady joined in the stable.

If and thats if STRAD was the point of no return, they need to wake up and smell the coffee.......STRAD is not the horse he was, some tactical speed has gone

IMHO Strad now will only win races in small fields, other jockeys know Strads strengths and can box him in easier with fields of 7 or more.

Dettori blamed Stradivarius - not a nice thing to do when you rode it like an apprentice

JG has lacked class in what has become a tedious saga.

It needs resolving so everyone can move on.

Good punting today all 

SHROPSHIRELAD Joined: 12 Mar 21
Replies: 23824 Jun 22 08:51 
GOSDEN is a typical privileged chinless wonder with no bottle.

Regardless of the merits of the current form of DETTORI even if he’s correct (which I thinks is debatable to say the least) he should have the balls and the grace to tell him face to face like a man.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/potential-split/frankie-dettori-and-john-gosden-the-highs-and-lows/564272

'Dettori is beaten on Stradivarius in the Gold Cup, again finding trouble in running, and is seen exchanging strong words with Gosden, who is also critical of the rider once again to the media.'

According to people who were actually there, he did.

Apparently, straight from the horse's mouth, Stradivarius will not allow Dettori on his back again having been disrespected. He wishes his fans to know there's life in the old dog yet and will prove it at Goodwood given half a chance. He certainly considers that he has more life in him than Dettori who he thinks is on the slide. "I was telling Dettori to hold track position before Swinley Bottom but he thought he knew best and got me into a right pickle. It was downright embarrassing. Have faith that I will put right all wrongs in the Goodwood Cup and make Ryan Moore eat his words when he suggested post race that the young whippersnapper Kyprios was much the best at Ascot."

Dettori's attitude stinks at times in my opinion & he's been found wanting way to many times this season. If he had the grace to come out and admit he made a mistake then fair enough everybody makes mistakes. As mentioned above the blame the horse after riding a stinker pretty much sums him up. Lost a lot of respect for him earlier in the season (France maybe?) Cant remember - he blamed a younger jockey anyway I thought that was poor form.

Dettori has become a part time jockey, semi retirement.
Italy one week, riding at Ascot and then back to Italy

judging by the  number of posts,i must be the only one who likes gosden snr. i like his interviews.i find him relatively truthful and usually possesses  a degree of common sense. as in hell posted fd has become a part timer. thats fine if your riding out of your skin , but he has been very poor on a number of occasions esp the oaks where he got beat on the best horse. f.cking off on your holidays immediaely after ascot having been away for the week before leves you less sharp than he should be.im not surprised jg didnt answer the phone.

dettori has sack gosden lol

It's abundantly clear the present Stradivarius is not the same horse that beat Vazirabad or Torcedor - he only just managed (on his favoured ground) to beat Spanish Mission (not won since). When Stradivarius was good he even beat Nayef Road on heavy ground - ground he disliked and Gosden withdrew him once in a big race on race day.

Dettori did not have a good Ascot, but I'll still back him before any other jockey on a deserved hotpot. To me he's still the best jockey at Ascot. I do not think he'd be blamed for the defeat of Emily Upjohn at Epsom either - the horse has a misfortune just after the stall opened.

I firmly believe a quiet word (in private) between these two behemoth of the sport was all that would be required post Ascot. Post this the decision whether they remain as a unit or go their separate way is theirs to make.

Where's AOB?

after a few years of seeing dettori clowning about non stop and kissing everyone he could i knew it was all a false front .

there is just no way that he is like that in real life . i bet hes the absolute opposite .

Was at Haydock several years midweek ago when after the 5th race Frankie and W Buick had finished riding and were have a seafood platter in the downstairs premier stand,most people were just letting them get on with it except for a couple of people who wanted their photos take with Frankie who happily obliged and was quite friendly with them,  one person even asked W Buick to take the photo which he did.

I have seen people ask Dettori for a selfie as he returns to the weigh room, he says, let me weigh in and I will come out again.
The surprising thing is that he does come out again for the photo

Gosden never has had, nor ever will have any class. A very over rated trainer propped up over the years by very good owners. Not fit to lace the great Sir Henry's laces...

Can't disagree there.

No trainer can be any good without owners giving them good horses

And Henry had lots of class but look what happened for several years when the good horses stopped coming his way

Gosden is a bad loser,no doubt about it.

Only a blind man can think Dettori is still a top class jockey. Gosden getting rid of him has been overdue for a considerable time. 3 years in a row he's jocked younger and better jockeys off in the Derby and each time he's ridden shockers. Add in Stradivarius in last years Gold Cup, Palace Pier in the QE11 and a number of others last year it's a surprise Gosden still stuck with him going into this season. Emily Upjohn was a joke of a ride regardless of the slip at the start. Without the showboating whilst Moore was galvanising Tuesday and getting first run Emily wins easily. Royal Ascot was then nothing short of a disaster. Hopefully the 'sabbatical' is a long term situation and we see the end of the only jockey out there who thinks he is more important than the horse he is riding.

Also with Thady joining the training ranks and presumably getting more responsibilities, perhaps Johnny G wanted to sort this out once and for all, without Thady having to deal with it at the beginning of his career.

Mr Gosden is a good trainer. However, he was put in his place by the likes of Sir Cecil, Sir Stoute and Mr Cumani neither were influenced by the wish of the owner; Mr Gosden ran horses in The Derby and Oaks when he should not eg Roaring lion and Nahwa respectively, but denied Jack Hobbs and Cracksman a crack in the The Arc despite ideal ground because of Golden Horn and Enable respectively.

Sir Cecil never even contemplated running Frankel in The Derby or over 12f despite the machine annihilating his rivals in every race bar one from 8/10f. Similarly, Mr Cumani with Postponed; he refused to run Postponed at Meydan, with solely Epsom and York as prep races for The Arc (main objective). Mr Harwood - another great trainer - also stuck with his jockey.

Mr Gosden is no doubt a very intelligent individual. He's articulate and speaks well too. He's also condescending, and a Mr Knows-it-all. He likes to smirk too!

Well…I laughed when Gosden said they had a face to face meeting.

I know :o

i uspect, with zero actual knowledge, it was Frankie who was so disappointed in the comments Gosden made.
Frankie has been a one man PR machine for racing. he has credit in the bank and deserves better.
i guess racing is a "what have you done for me lately" industry but occasionally somone is above that, Lanfranco is.

Good post that northanlite.

Just tested the wife out by asking her to name a jockey , she named Dettori & Piggott even though i only asked for one name.

Asked her who John Gosden was , she went quiet than guessed he was a motor racing driver.

Mind you she did think Sir Henry was a snooker player.

Hard to evaluate what Dettori has done for racing in all honesty , suspect it's a hell of a lot though.

A couple of jumped up millionaires having a tiff pmsl.............

Hayden , do you and your wife live in the same house?

Whatever the issue -public behaviour requires a certain discipline and decorum. One can disagree with or criticise someone without belittling them.
Knowing him only from the TV screen -I was surprised that Gosden fell short of expectations.

Well maybe he has had a few words behind closed doors and it had no effect.

Yes Swifty she does 

She feels herself lucky she's never really exposed to TV sport , my viewing is mostly online.

She's also eternally thankful i dislike soccer so never has to watch or hear about that.

MY main sport is Ice Hockey & all the other American stuff so yet again she's thankful it all starts from midnight.

All makes for a happy household   

sounds like a perfect set up!

Tbf to Gosden, he rightly called out a few shockingly poor rides from Frankie - something which stunned the fawning presenters as something they'd never do themselves in a million years.

I could swear, I saw Frankie's left knee give way when he jumped off the horse. It will do, one day, and I think it was today.
Cutter the cut is never wrong, and he can smell the buzz of headlines.

young mr gosden has his own plans  and ideas and they don't contain frankie I suspect when  it comes down to it

Down to what: it?
I think Betfair needs to vet some of these foreigners, as they may wish to post, but their language is like a baby blabbering.

A sabbatical? What a pompous and disingenuous description of events? It's like saying to a loyal servant your service is no longer needed, and you'd been let go; only the Gosdens just did not have the decency or courage to say that to the people's jockey.

A reconciliation? More chance of finding Elvis alive than Dettori being 1st jockey again at Clarehaven. Has Gosden jr ever done a stint with a seasoned trainer eg Haggas or Sir Stoute?

Jibberish, Sir. Jibberish. Make yourself plain and English. We know you are foreign and struggle with simple contractions and expansions of English grammar but do have a go. You never know we may be able to understand the rat hole you are grunting from.

Handled poorly by Gosden - ignoring attempts to make contact yet stating that truths need told to people as it's only right and fair........yet Dettori had made too many high profile ba11s ups - far too many and need to be let go. Maybe this will focus the jockey better so to not believe his own hype. Best for both parties.

I think this unfortunate saga will be productive for both parties going forward (separately). No (business) partnership is inseparable given time. Onwards and upwards, I say,...for horseracing.

I say: what a Victorian expression, Sir.

"Mr Gosden is a good trainer. However, he was put in his place by the likes of Sir Cecil, Sir Stoute and Mr Cumani neither were influenced by the wish of the owner"

Stoute ran Sheikh Mohammed's Ajdal in Derby, later that nag was champion sprinter.
Cumani ran Sheikh Mohammed's Barathea in the Derby

The best parent of UAE was flexing his financial muscle then, but Sir Cecil was not for turning with his charges. Later Cumani did stand his ground about Postponed (the best horse in "that" Arc) who ran his races prior eg Meydan, courtesy of his owner.

Cardinal Scott 26 Jun 22 14:24
"Mr Gosden is a good trainer. However, he was put in his place by the likes of Sir Cecil, Sir Stoute and Mr Cumani neither were influenced by the wish of the owner"

Stoute ran Sheikh Mohammed's Ajdal in Derby, later that nag was champion sprinter.
Cumani ran Sheikh Mohammed's Barathea in the Derby

Lets not bring facts into this please

Both horses shared the same owner. Sir Cecil did not; Mr Cumani stood his ground, and vindicated when Postponed was beaten by the 1st and 2nd in The Atrc - the same 2 horses Postponed had beaten easily prior.

Mr Gosden is a good trainer. He also talks a good talk. But, running Roaring Lion (2018) and then Nashwa (2022) at Epsom is not the judgement of a very good trainer; Stradivarius (2020 Arc) on heavy ground (the same ground he pulled the horse out in a big stayer's race on the day) was another apocalyptic horseracing decision on his part.

Dettori made a few rare mistakes at Ascot this year; Mr Gosden made a few too in big races mentioned above. Mr Gosden also bitched about Dettori in public!

Be professional esp one is in a high profile position and public sport.

I was under the impression it was the owner of Stradivarius (Nielson) who decided to target
The Arc though I'm not certain of that.

And in doing so, I would've assumed softer ground was preferable to sap the stamina from
some of the classier types who may come up short. He did win one of his Gold Cups on very
soft ground...arguably his most impressive win there.

For an Arc it was a very winnable opportunity and in reality there looked to be only Enable to
be that concerned about - the eventual winner Sottsass will go down as a way below average winner.

The strong staying Marienbard won it and the great Ardross had it won in another couple of
strides. Order Of St George ran superb races to be placed twice so I don't think it's such
a ridiculous route to go as a stayer can appreciate the high-tempo pace.

As for Stoute with Ajdal...I always figured he was an 8/10f horse (though he never ran at 10f and
maybe he wasn't 100% early in the season against Don't Forget Me over a mile) but that generation
of sprinters was as bad as I can remember, so was that a case of Stoute carving out a winnable
opportunity at the highest level in channelling a stayer's speed (against weak opposition) or was
the new strategy an admission he previously got it wrong?
Maybe a bit of both but I'd go with the former and also arguably that he 'came right' after the Derby.


I do recall Stoute admitting he'd taken an age to find Ajdal's best trip but I always reckoned
there was a lot more to what we'd been told as I find it extremely difficult to believe that one
of the greatest trainers EVER mistook a champion sprinter for a Derby winner, without having his
arm up his back...and the clue may be in the paragraph below:

In Hell - with both those examples (Ajdal & Barathea) being the Sheikh's, do you think he
might've been desperate to get himself a Derby winner and used his influence?
I remember constantly hearing how The Derby meant the pinnacle of the sport for the Ayrabs.


I always recall Jeremy Tree rating Known Fact, the Guineas winner (and slayer of the great Kris)
a better sprinter at home than the superb Sharpo which astonished me. It sounds so obvious but I
learned throughout the 80s to have confidence in my own views, that racehorses can't talk and
nothing is straightforward and set in stone.

Things bothered me that everyone just believed cos they were 'official' opinions and always spouted
in the media such as Sea Pigeon supposedly not having the requisite stamina (over a slightly longer
trip at the time) for the Champion Hurdles he was beaten in (before winning twice over shorter) yet
he could win two Chester Cups on the flat with a much faster pace over 2f more?

Utter shíte which is about as inane & retarded as I've ever heard in the sport
I'm sure someone can confirm that it was the prescribed view of the time and I'm not dreaming it up.

There looks to be a relatively straightforward answer to that Sea Pigeon quandary...maybe he
was beaten in the best Champion Hurdles EVER by stronger stayers and arguably better hurdlers.
No shame at all up against Nighty Nurse & Monksfield.

I was a raw novice at the time and Sea Pigeon was one of the reasons why the game grabbed me
by the throat - others on here will no doubt be better qualified to give their opinions and
despite my Sea Pigeon bias, I think it makes sense, though I'm happy to be put straight as I
was just a naive schoolkid with huge enthusiasm but little experience

Luca Cumani admitted during that Racing UK pandemic long interview that he was pressurized to run Barathea in Derby, almost certain the same thing happened in 1987 when his only other runner had a 150/1 SP Water Boatman.

Ajdal did for Don't Forget Me and Most Welcome in Craven Stakes so it was never a case of him not being ready for 2000 Guineas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZFeCu3U_o4

Strad was withdrawn on very soft going on the day of a big race (possibly Goodwood 2021), but beat Nayef Road comprehensively in the soft; Order Of St George and Highland Reel were riding shotgun for Found in the race where Postponed ran his race at Meydan, and had a race too many.

Gosden would not run Jack Hobbs or Cracksman in The Arc despite the ground were in their favour because of Golden Horn (then drawn car park), and Enable (2nd Arc/regressing) just hung on from Sea Of Class (drawn car park) respectively.

I agree the win by Sottsass (comprehensively beaten by Waldgeist the year before) in 2020 was a mediocre renewal; Strad finished behind Enable (on a hattrick) when the latter was regressing in the same race. He also finished behind Anthony Van Dyck and Ghaiyyath prior to this race.

What I'm saying is Stradivarius ought not to have run in 2020 Arc post comprehensively beaten by Ghaiyyath and Anthony Van Dyck. I think had Sir Cecil not trained Frankel the horse would have run in the Epsom Derby.

Mr Harwood lost the patronage of his big owners after he stuck with Starkey post Dancing Brave's valiant effort at Epsom. He now runs and owns Harwoods Group of luxurious cars.

I don't think that is right Impossible on Guy Harwood, Greville Starkey retired in 1989 when Guy Harwood had 109 winners - the drop off occurred immediately after that and for the rest of his training days.  It was a steady and constant decline until he packed it in.


He had many of the top owners for 1990 and a large string and then they started to drop off. 

https://www.racingpost.com/profile/trainer/405/g-harwood/horses

You may be right. My recollection was Mr Harwood was getting fewer and fewer expensive yearlings from the petrol money clan of owners. I think the then competition between the big boys (more of them too) eg Cecil, Stoute, Harwood, Dunlop and Cumani were fiercer compared to present.

I saw Dancing Brave at Goodwood post Epsom where racegoers clapped at 3f marker (for Starkey) before he was replaced by Eddery. The horse looked expensive; it had a shiny and smooth coat.

CS - I do remember that Don't Forget Me was beaten in The Craven but it was after all,
only a trial and I'd suggest neither were 100% ready.

I have a recollection that Ajdal carried a 5lb penalty but I might be getting mixed up
with Lear Fan when he beat Rainbow Quest in the same race, as he defo did.

My main point is that how the fcuk can one of the greatest trainers EVER (that's not
even up for debate) mistake a champion sprinter for a Derby winner?

For that reason I've always believed there's a lot more to Ajdal's unique campaigning
than we officially know as I cannot for the life of me believe that Stoute did not know
what was under Ajdal's bonnet, and if he would've thrown Sheikh Mo under the bus by blaming
him for strangely targeting The Derby, then sprinting, he would've lost his huge patronage.

Even 35 years later, I suspect he's still taking a bullet for the team in keeping schtum,
once he'd admitted he cottoned on how Ajdal 'should've been campaigned' too late.

I've always been confident I'm right about that (confusing a sprinter for a Derby winner as
it's just not plausible) and we might learn more when Stoute retires - or maybe we'll never know.

I get the impression Gosden has suffered Dettori for a long time because he got the job done on the track. This is not happening enough now actually the opposite is the case.
I can think back to Dettori riding Logician to with the Ledger and complaining about being sent to ride the horse at midweek evening meeting at Newbury. He obviously felt it was beneath him and still had the hump about it.
COVID has really counted against him with the other Jockeys only riding one meeting a day they are a lot more mentally sharper. His advantage of being fresh has been eroded and with better performances elsewhere has somewhat been exposed. This has been evident a lot over the last year or so.
Lack of commitment in the mornings will not have helped. You do not know the dynamics between the younger Gosden and Dettori though you could not imagine him being happy to receive advice or instructions from the former. I noted someone mentioned about the blame Hollie Doyle in France for losing episode that has come back to haunt him.         
Gosden was not great on TV at Ascot but I think he knows he is on the wind down. He will not get anther horse like Stradivarius before he retires or the chance to train a winner for the Queen in her platinum jubilee year at Royal Ascot. I guess that was a bitter pill to swallow and it showed.

J Tree said any true classic horse would win the July Cup.I remember M. Stoute saying G Starkey had said all year that Ajdal was a sprinter.What made him think that I have no idea.

Stradivarious' owners got a bit in the SL about
Dettori and the Gold Cup ride.

Who?  Stoute or Starkey?
I do vividly remember the drinker - can't remember his name but he was on the telly a lot at the time ( Alistair Down maybe? ) - praising Stoute for bringing the horse back from the Derby to win the sprint Cup and likening it to genius.  Stoute's answer itself was genius in its self-deprecation when he answered "You may call it that but it doesn;t feel like genius to run a sprinter in the Derby"!

Why would Greville have known? he never rode Ajdal - are you not getting confused with Soviet Star? another Sheikh Mohammed miler that dropped back and won July Cup, Greville rode that nag when he was still mileing.

A lot of milers dropped back and won July Cup in that period, Green Desert was another.