Frankie

? really?

Too relaxed
the hoss

I wonder did he not see Tuesday until it was too late

kept her too far back off a very slow pace

cracking ride after the start,the bob beat her.

Reminded me of Dancing Brave..maybe thats what he was thinking too

Pity they did not put Cauthen on it would have pi55ed it

or Pat

Been out of the limelight this season. Big chance to get back in and that happens.

Wottack Hunt. And no, I didn't back Emily.  Just saying.....

the difference between a great ride and a terrible ride in the bob of a head.

Thought he had it , stopped whipping it  , got it wrong.

Frankie thought it should have won no f shi7 sherlock

was too far back - end of

Slipped at the start. what he do wrong? pocket talkers out in force!
Best horse lost not frankie's fault.

winners a nice horse, might have been headed & battled back ...

It was a very unfortunate run, I done my dough but that's the way it goes sometimes.

more to the point, how on earth has the bore that is Moore managed to win on that.? Would make the second 1/4 to beat the winner if they meet again

yes she slipped but the pace was very slow and he should have been able to judge that - kept her too far back and lost in the sprint. race was 1.5 secs slower than the coronation cup

No bet in the race , Frankie  definitely thought he was getting up the last 50 yards , that was his his mistake , if he could ride it again he would have given a bit more effort !

Backed Emily should have been odds on and showed why. Never mind about the jockey missed the start in a Classic. Looked down LMFAO! Early excuses in.

and what is going on with the track that they are coming up the stands side? this needs looking at

Looked down then finished like a fkin torpedo

Early excuses in.

if he wanted to get it beat that was a pretty good way to do it, beaten on the nod.  guy must be a magician.

Jinxy - I think that's a fair observation (thinking it was in the bag) - maybe he
was 'nursing' her home, thinking she might've done herself some damage at the start.

Early excuses as in ‘i fked up hope nobody noticed’ not ‘i dont want to win in a Classic because multimillionaires want to pull horses’ for those without a brain cell

just a very unlucky loser. Could give the winner a stone in a hcap.

yes she slipped but the pace was very slow and he should have been able to judge that - kept her too far back and lost in the sprint. race was 1.5 secs slower than the coronation cup


You think a horse that misses the start in a classic by several lengths should be rushed up around the field due to a modest pace? Totally absurd, he could do nothing else but accept the hand that was dealt, and literally only lost out on the nod. As others have alluded to it's rank bad luck, a) to slip at the start, b) a slow pace c) lose a literal 50/50 nod.

Where is the evidence of him slipping did they replay it? I must have missed that.

"he should have been able to judge that"

He judged it very well...he got there in time but just didn't go past

It did look game-over and as someone else stated, to hit only a low of 1.34
is very peculiar...I checked on that and expected 1.03 or even lower!

Always find reading these threads hilarious   

eric_morris didn't actually watch the race. But thinks it's worth giving his view.

didnt slip - stumbled

Was virtually upsides Tuesday coming down the hill and was in perfect position 3f out, nearest the favoured stands rail and made up ground very smoothly, and I expected him to storm clear and win 3l+. However Tuesdays pace (placed in two Guineas) enabled Ryan Moore to pinch a lead. Frankie got level, maybe even ahead, but lost on the bob.
He was highest up the slope, whereas Tuesday challenged nearest far rail, so arguably Frankie had the better ground and so I don’t think the start cost him the race the way some are suggesting.

yes it turned into a sprint in a slow race - the stumble probably made dettori too cautious without that might have been nearer the front when the sprint started

FD doesn't usually drop them out, never mind a key race. Circumstances conspired against him. I backed it but he rode a fine race, and was unlucky to be beaten by a strong competitor. On the flip side she settled pretty well, which was far from certain, that allowed him to get so close.

Yeah absolutely right

Dettori thought he would win from 2f out and was too slow to notice Ryan Moore to his far left who got first run on him. I've seen too many times where he wants to win cosily/cheekily and it was only a matter of time where this mentality would lead to his downfall. The connections of the second must be gutted. The beloved King of Kings Lester Piggott would never have made such an elementary mistake. IMO it's akin to the ride Greville Starkey gave to Dancing Brave to get him beat in the 1986 Derby, where the horse was capable but the jockey incompetent.

Obviously didn't help what happened at the start, but position-wise relative to Tuesday, soon nicely enough placed, though with the rail being out he's ended up covering more ground by coming wide which probably wasn't negated by a quicker strip of ground on the outer.

In hindsight, Dettori might regret sitting chilly for as long as he did, but he was on a filly who had prove her stamina to prove.

Undoubtedly unlucky, and you don't need to be a paddock expert to recognise her physical scope when alongside Tuesday.

Rides the race again and he wins with the same start!

I don't buy the unlucky bit for Frankie's horse,granted he got a bad start but with the slow pace he was upsides Tuesday and going easy turning into the straight. You can see Frankie is a length ahead when they level up to the camera . Tuesday came from just as far back and got unbalanced as she went up the camber to join Frankie who had no such problems as his horse had a smooth straight run up the stands side. Being the youngest horse in the race today I would expect Tuesday to confirm her superiority over these in the future.

He was in front a few yards before the line and after it. Obviously that's just pure luck which horse has the head down at the point they pass the line.

^ Correct.
Some utterly ludicrous comments on here !!

Yeah absolutely

Don't rewatch races too often, but wanted a double check on this one.

The favourite lost about four lengths on the winner out of the stalls. Yes, she got back on terms quickly, but it wasn't ideal to use up energy to do so. If there was plan I doubt it was to be in the last two. The race was lost when the winner quickened early in the straight and nicked 3-4 lengths with Dettori sitting still. Had he made a similar move I don't think there is much doubt he would have won, probably with something in hand. You can never guarantee to win on the bob, and that's all Dettori had left once he failed to respond to Moore's early move. Perhaps bad luck at the start, but he ended up being outridden and perhaps it isn't a coincidence that Moore is having a very good season, and Dettori isn't?

I've watched it a few more times now the stumble obv does not help but when the fav comes with his run in the final furlong it looks like its the winner Frankie over the years does not make many mistakes especially in classics looks like he was just unlucky today by a whisker if the whisker had gone the other way we would all have been saying what a marvel Frankie is anyway its all about opinions

He got there in time dd, the winner did well after being played early, as you stated. If you knew that Tuesday would stay on so strongly after going half a mile up in trip, you might press the button earlier. But he didn't know that. The only fair assessment is to judge the situation at the time it was taken, not after the outcome.

Nice analysis i guess the race only starts from the final furlong. Wise

He got there only if you think winning on the nod is 'getting there'. For me that is just turning it into a flip of a coin. I can't buy that he was sitting still because he thought the winner was a non stayer. He just didn't react quick enough. Had he done so it wouldn't have been reduced to a game of chance.

How about the obvious. He had to make a lot of ground up after missing the start. He wanted to therefore hold on to her in case she had less left than normal for her finish, watching others in the process hoping they didn't have that much for the finish so he could make her fuel last to the line in front.

It turned out one horse in the race couldn’t be given a seven length start by her.

Also she was amzing in the finish he couldn’t have hoped for more yet lost.

Gosden will be furious away from the cameras. He knows Vettori c*cked up when Palace Pier was beaten by Baaeed. He held on when he should have gone for it earlier than he did. This injudicious ride is a carbon copy.

'The Riders In The Stand!'

I'm not saying he thought the winner was a non stayer, I'm saying he didn't know it was a strong stayer and he knew that his mount missed the kick and wanted to hold back as long as was feasible (presumably, since this is a new trip for his mount too). Anyone can analyse a race in the knowledge of what happened and say this or that should have happened, but the jockey is playing the odds in the moment. In my view he was entitled to feel that Ryan had used enough gas early on, but Tuesday is obviously a very useful horse too, and kept on strongly.

, Banjo Patterson if you're curious.

Time to retire age catches upon us all a younger Frankie would surely have got that home.

Some great analysis of something pretty simple here.

IMO it's akin to the ride Greville Starkey gave to Dancing Brave to get him beat in the 1986 Derby, where the horse was capable but the jockey incompetent.



Difference being Frankie hit the front but Starkey didn't.

No comparison between the two rides in my view.

akin to Dancing Brave.?  You have to laugh.  A load of absolute cod.
Move the line a metre either way and he wins.
As for him leading Moore where did that happen?
Both jockeys deserve credit for riding out two top class fillies without ever resorting to severe whip encouragement.

The start was a negative for sure, but if Dettori rides the filly out strenuously, with several Lester style staccato cracks of the whip, she wins by half a length.

Not so much an awful ride all round, as he rode text book after the start to get her into a winning position, but what a lame, weak final half furlong.

it's almost as if he was going for the picture book finish of trying to win 'cosily' on the line while keeping something up his sleeve.

Well said Honcho 

Honcho still talking drivel,

I have to agree with OP. Terrible ride from Frankie.
Slow pace so the missed start made no difference.
He obviously didn't see Ryan kick on and held on to his filly far too long.
He thought he had everything covered.
He was cruising and asked her far too late.

.

not sure the near side rail was the usual golden highway and moore may have been on the slightly better ground a few widths off it
as ive said in another post recent evidence shows frankie has lost that strength in close finishes

how anyone can blame frankie is totally beyound me

Dettori has been woeful in a finish for a long time now. It's one of those odd things that Dettori because of his popularity rarely gets criticised. If the shoe had been on the other foot and Moore had got that beat  he would have been crucified for weeks. The simple facts are it was a classic and Emily Upjohn should have won easily. One man got it beat.

I think backers of Emily Upjohn (I was one) are a bit harsh to blame Dettori; the horse slipped at the off, and lost many lengths crucially to her main protagonists; the winner secured a better position than her. Had the position been reversed Emily Upjohn would have won, I believe, despite the slip; the Group 1 horse and her superior position were just sufficient to win her the race on the day.

However, the better horse was undoubtedly Emily John NOT Tuesday. I hope for a rematch in the Irish Oaks on 16th July; plenty of time to recover for both and good prep for The Arc in Oct.

Round 2 please, connections. The Epsom result was inconclusive for sure to ascertain the best filly over 12f.

There's only one Oaks. Moore gets busy 3f out while Dettori is still showboating. Even a hand ride would have made sure, but motionless for best part of a furlong. Over confidence the difference imo.

I backed the favourite and thought it had won.

But I wouldn't be so quick to back the second to reverse the placing should they meet again.
IMO the best horse won on the day after it had showed the better turn of foot to go clear.
Had Moore held on to her a little longer, who's to say she wouldn't have won better? 
The Italian's horse wasn't quite good enough on the day.

If you accept the ground she lost at the start cost her the race she is just unlucky, nobody to blame.

If you believe Dettori 'fell asleep' when Moore quickened up, then he has ridden a shocker.

I wonder which version the media will go with?

watch the opening show. it shows an overhead shot which confirms Emily was in front and Tuesday had a better turn of foot.

She was in front, no, she was in front, no she was, etc. For me the stumble decided the result. Dettori wanted to sit 3rd or 4th but ended up last. And who knows what the filly stretched in the process.

When its ancient history, Dettori may admit he could have done better. But it will be a long wait. Maybe never

https://youtu.be/Bse556g7vAA

Watched this video replay and it appears to show EU in front of Tuesday by a length around the 2:18 then camera switches to head on and Tuesday is like over 2l clear. Which is strange as AO says she got there in two strides on extended rtv highlights on YT.
Watching the rtv replay it doesn't look the same,Head on is much earlier.

Was looking for a head on of the start to see what happened, almost like the horse had tried to get rid of rider, almost a plant, both front legs together half a stride after gates open,strange to see horse being lifted into stride after gates open.But camera angle  of start is very poor.

At end of day best horse won imo ,EU found trouble at bottom of hill too, was very wide and Moore came over to keep dettori on softer ground.

EU never really lengthened, but not sure if she was really asked too, slightly awkward throughout and could be a reason, maybe ground maybe summit else but would like to see head on of start, was odd.

bit grumpy in the interview there

Is the girl in blue Thady's tart?

Gosden just said on RTV that he thinks Frankie didn't see Ryan go

The clown Dettori didn't see Moore go, then panicked realising a race he thought was in the bag was then under major threat and lost a race he SHOULD have won. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a muppet IMO.

Dettori cost his backers money and connections of the filly a fortune at stud. Gosden is no mug and will be privately seething.

What a surprise. A criticism free zone for Frankie on Luck On Sunday (with Persad). The train are so predictable.

What on earth was Mangan talking about? Does she think viewers are blind? The race winning move was Moore conmmitting his filly first. Anyone should be able to see that.

Yes regardless of the slip at the start, Emily Upjohn wins comfortably if Dettori doesn't showboat for a furlong and allow Moore first run. It was a terrible ride as was his ride in the derby.

I think Dettori thought Emily Upjohn would still win when cruised up next to the rail but did not envisage Tuesday would find extra just before the line; Tuesday had her head where it mattered...on the line.

Redemption in the Ribblesdale Stakes? That's where the money is indicating she'll run next despite Gosden was rumoured to say end of July before she'd reappear on a racecourse. A red herring for the benefit of bookies esp with an option for the Irish Oaks on 16th July

Camera angles were misleading. Tuesday never got first run on EJ. It was confirmed that EJ was around 2 lengths in front of Tuesday when Frankie said go

I saw that camera angle Simon. From head on it looks like Tuesday clearly is in front yet from rear on it is the other way around with EU clearly in front. Which camera angle is most likely to be correct?

https://youtu.be/Bse556g7vAA?t=145

if you watch this it appears that Emily is clearly in front maybe by a length

Going back in time i mentioned on another thread that Emily was never in front of Tuesday (except a bob before the finishing line) but having seen the You-Tube link A_T has posted, i was clearly wrong. Apologies.

Mind you in a re-match, i know which one i want to be on, although i can't see this occurring in the near term unless Tuesday goes for the KG VI/Queen Elizabeth stakes.

Has anyone a copy of the race in the home straight from behind the horses where it is very clear?

Emily Upjohn was 1L in front around 2 1/2F out.
Tuesday put daylight between the 2 not long after.
It took Moore longer to pull her up than Emily Upjohn.
She was only 3 yrs old on the day,I would'nt be so sure
the Gosden filly will beat her if they meet again.

it's possible 12f is a stretch for EU - she was coasting 3f out but Moore was already pushing and Tuesday got home better

If they did ever meet again i'd be far more interested what else was in the race than just guessing between those two

at the risk of being obsessive a screenshot here

https://i.imgur.com/4umIqSv.png

Thank you A_T. That isn't obsessive, it proves the point. I don't know if you have seen the film from behind where it looks clearly more than that. It is a pity it isn't available.

ITV opening show had an overhead camera. will be on catch up

Thank you NH. I had deleted it. About 52 minutes into the programme it clearly shows, overhead, EU ahead of Tuesday.

The thing about the YT link showing EU in front, when it switches to head Tues is gone, clearing away.
Clearly there is about at least 6 poss more missing seconds.
Which as I sayed earlier,Trainer sayed I am told he got there in two strides, but haven't seen the race!

Because that's exactly what that  footage shows.

Odd imo.

Anyway, Tues wonned, get over it, Fwanki been watching all the old Lester footage imo and thort he might show ya all.
I would loved to have heard his  old man's post race phone call.

Really enjoyed watching the documentary on FD, worth a watch.