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Have greatest sympathy for Freddie, who I like and seems to have come to terms admirably with the life-changing accident but, apologies if this has been aired before, surely every jockey is insured and given the severity of the injury there must have already been a major insurance payout? If so, is Freddie trying to get double bubble?
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Thanks elise, which is what I anticipated but nobody wants to mention it so far on this thread as if it wasn't relevant at all.
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it's hard to say what FT should have done, if he feels aggrieved there's previous precedents set in other sports where the claimant has gone after the governing body rather than the opponent, in this case he could be arguing that stewarding is unsafe because they don't implement the race rules properly, or that they don't breath test everyone everyday, so to go after gibbons might be a mistake unless they can convince the jury the stewards were wrong, in effect he's fighting two battles not one to win his case, it's a tough one
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ihal essex 01 Dec 21 16:37
Have greatest sympathy for Freddie, who I like and seems to have come to terms admirably with the life-changing accident but, apologies if this has been aired before, surely every jockey is insured and given the severity of the injury there must have already been a major insurance payout? If so, is Freddie trying to get double bubble? FT received a large amount from a go fund me money raiser set up by Matt Chapman, and while no doubt he is seeking compensation here, it might not entirely be about the money, if they believe GG was riding while under the influence of alcohol, a justice of sorts may be being sought. |
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if freddie wins cant see why any jock would want to continue every race could be their turn in court and how many outside the top jocks could afford the massive hikes in insurance which will follow
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Yes I can see the difficulties but what is the point of the dangerous riding rule if it is never used? The rule seems clear enough but is totally ignored by the stewards with almost all people involved with the sport appearing to look the other way.
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i think if he won, then the questions would be asked of the bha and stewarding re how they couldn't. didn't or wouldn't take action on the numerous occasions we've had careless rather than dangerous
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i think if he won, then the questions would be asked of the bha and stewarding re how they couldn't. didn't or wouldn't take action on the numerous occasions we've had careless rather than dangerous
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Can someone tell me what constitutes dangerous riding in their opinion?
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you posted it, it's basically incompetent or deliberate where it endangers others, which is why when blame does get apportioned they generally go with "careless" because they don't seem to want to do a prof jockey, a few years back they dropped in "improper" which seems to sit above careless, that was really aimed at in race moves that caused bad interference, improper carried a lonfer banmaybe by 3-7 days over careless
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To me the problem is that the rule has been ignored and this encourages jockeys to take these dangerous risks during races and people just say its all part of the cut and thrust of racing. Anyway who disagrees might like tell us what the dangerous riding rule is there for.
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*Anyone who disagrees.
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Regarding the stewards on the day, they had to make a decision in what were very difficult circumstances, and we now know about what Pat Cosgrave said on the day, which wasn't reported on the BHA website at the time.
It sounds like they have all camera angles available to them for the hearing, so in a court of law they can review it afresh. |
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Cosgrave's comments confirm to me that this is nothing but a ploy for a payout. He was being as neutral as possible on the day by saying Freddie had been 'ambitious' but it still infers that if anyone is to blame, its Freddie. I think Pat and Jim and others have got involved here in favour of Freddie because they know he is really struggling and they want to help a friend. But this is trying to con the system and the alleged assault on gibbo after pressuring him to claim liability would be the icing.
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I don't agree that FT was "ambitious", his mount was keen and pulled her way into a gap that appeared to be there and I'd say was at least 50% of the way into / upsides, when FT was forced to take back.
The question is therefore, why was Tylicki forced out of the gap? Was it accidental, or did GG make a manoeuvre to get back to the rail; and now's there's an accusation he'd been drinking. From what we've read, it would appear Ryan Moore has an opinion about what happened in the race. |
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from what we no ,hear ,read GG was under the influence everytime he rode but no jocks went to the stewards before or after the race in question
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Cosgrave's comments confirm to me that this is nothing but a ploy for a payout. He was being as neutral as possible on the day by saying Freddie had been 'ambitious' but it still infers that if anyone is to blame, its Freddie. I think Pat and Jim and others have got involved here in favour of Freddie because they know he is really struggling and they want to help a friend. But this is trying to con the system and the alleged assault on gibbo after pressuring him to claim liability would be the icing.
Rate reply: | Agree- The real reasons are never going to be aired openly. Getting Gibbo to admit liability is the same as admitting liabilty in a car accident_ your insurance company would be obliged to pay out unless it was obvious it was the other guy. Unfortunatley for FT there are a videos from various angles and the stewards report. BTW,who was the jockey who tried to 'persuade' Gibbo to admit liability? |
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Irish ex top jockey are the clues.
KF or RH or JM doubtful? |
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mrspock 01 Dec 21 18:12
Unfortunatley for FT there are videos from various angles and the stewards report. Indeed, which have now been carefully scrutinised by the court, and you're confident the judge will agree with the on-the-day stewards? |
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bizzare that Crowley said it was a regular thing Gibbons smelling of alcohol .Says nowt @ the time and quite happy to go and ride against him .
Would he have got in car with him driving .?? |
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@Georgeb;
This is the race report from RP: Nellie Deen Prominent, tracked winner after 3f, close up on inner and starting to take keen hold when stumbled and fell halfway (tchd 12/1) Madame Butterfly: Taken down early, made all, ridden well clear from 2f out, unchallenged (op 7/2 tchd 2/1). Question is this,at the end of the day: Do we really want the courts to be deciding on how horse races are run on a daily basis? |
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JCM
would it be a recent incident in a pub in Newmarket? Help me out here! |
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cant wait for usual suspects asking the judge ,jury if theyve ever ridden in a horses race, IF NOT ,,,,
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mrspock, I routinely record live racing and was able to examine for myself at the time what happened in the build up to the fall, and posted my opinion on threads at the time, as did others.
As for your question, parispike on this thread has been made reasonable points about it ending up in court. |
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mrsspock, mr combustible posted this earlier on in the thread
my apologies first, there is no mention of the culprit being Irish. mrcombustible Date Joined: 18 Feb 02 Add contact | Send message 30 Nov 21 20:13Joined: 18 Feb 02 | Topic/replies: 3,219 | Blogger: mrcombustible's blog JCM It is in the RP article "Are you aware on the jockeys' grapevine of a disgraceful incident a few months ago when a well-known former jockey tried to pressure Mr Gibbons to give evidence to help Freddy Tylicki and then assaulted him?" |
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@GeorgeB
Everybody has opinions on every race on every day;however,the elephant in the room is the rules of racing,and stewarding. If a riding offence has occurred,then its the authorities who should be taking appropiate action. If a precedent IS set,then you could see cases ending up in court on a regular basis. |
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JCM
Yes I read that. But it doesn't help.. |
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Ryan Moore fends off suggestion of bias from Gibbons' counsel in High Court
https://www.racingpost.com/news/latest/ryan-moore-fends-off-suggestion-of-bias-from-gibbons-counsel-in-high-court/524943 |
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Ryan Moore insisted he had remained unbiased throughout the process that led to him giving evidence as an expert witness at the High Court on Wednesday and confirmed his view that Graham Gibbons was at fault over the 2016 incident at Kempton when Freddy Tylicki suffered paralysing injuries.
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Ryan's expert report does not seem a killer blow.
------------------------------------------------------------ Ryan Moore fends off suggestion of bias from Gibbons' counsel in High Court Ryan Moore: gave evidence on day three of the High Court hearing into Freddy Tylicki's claim against Graham Gibbons Ryan Moore: gave evidence on day three of the High Court hearing into Freddy Tylicki's claim against Graham Gibbons Bryn Lennon (Getty Images) 1 of 1 By Chris Cook, Senior reporter UPDATED 7:36PM, DEC 1 2021 Ryan Moore insisted he had remained unbiased throughout the process that led to him giving evidence as an expert witness at the High Court on Wednesday and confirmed his view that Graham Gibbons was at fault over the 2016 incident at Kempton when Freddy Tylicki suffered paralysing injuries. The three-time champion jockey, having what he said was his first experience of a court room, spent more than three hours under forensic cross-examination, when his neutrality was questioned by the defence barrister, Patrick Lawrence QC. Lawrence put it to him that, having had several conversations over many months with Tylicki's solicitors in the production of his report, Moore's mindset may have changed such that he was "seeking to do your best" for the injured man. Moore, who said he had done the work for free, gave a vivid denial. Gibbons' breath smelled of alcohol at Kempton, Jim Crowley tells High Court "This whole thing has been tiresome and boring and sad," he said. "I just wanted to write a report which I felt was fair, about what I believe happened during the race. That's all I was trying to achieve. To be honest, it's a lose/lose either way." To a question about his sympathy for the claimant, Moore replied: "I do feel a great deal of sympathy for Freddy. I also feel a great deal of sympathy for Graham. It's a horrible situation." Although he felt Gibbons' riding had caused the 2016 fall, he also described the defendant as "an excellent horseman, a fantastic rider". Moore's report has not been made public but an excerpt in the published arguments for Tylicki describes Gibbons as exerting "considerable tension on the right rein" while rounding the bend, and continues: "He would only have done that in order to encourage Madame Butterfly across Nellie Deen's racing line," a reference to the two horses involved. Graham Gibbons: described as "an excellent horseman" by Ryan Moore but whose riding caused the Kempton fall in 2016 Graham Gibbons: described as "an excellent horseman" by Ryan Moore but whose riding caused the Kempton fall in 2016 Mark Cranham (racingpost.com/photos) Asked what he would have done if, in Gibbons' situation, he had noticed a horse on his inner, Moore replied: "If I'm turning a bend and making the running and someone goes up my inside, my natural instinct is, I wasn't expecting that and usually I'll be steering away. You don't want to cause interference. "I would always think, I don't like that, but the safest thing is to leave more space. It's happened to me in the past." Lawrence argued that Moore had not become champion three times by giving way to his rivals and that in fact he would not do so if he found someone unexpectedly moving up between him and the rail. "Respectfully, your suggestion is wrong," the jockey countered. "Many times over the years . . . I can recall a moment at the Curragh with 100 yards to go and I just felt him there, there was a shout. I didn't want to put him through the fence, so I had to accept the situation and get beat. It happens. As riders, we all understand there are risks involved. It is high-risk but we have to respect one another. "It's competitive and you want to win but your first obligation as a rider is to the other riders and the horses in the race. That is our first priority. You can't win anything if you're suspended." Moore's report included an acknowledgement that it was prepared by Tylicki's solicitors after consultation with him. "I never sit at a computer. I ride horses," Moore explained, but that led to questions from Lawrence as to whether parts of the report reflected the jockey's views or those of the solicitors. In particular, Lawrence attacked what he described as a "ridiculous" assertion that Gibbons should not just have noticed Tylicki's presence and given him room, but that he should also have "slowed down" Madame Butterfly. "This is a slip-up because this report has been prepared by someone else," Lawrence suggested, adding that Moore would never do such a thing himself. Tylicki recalls 'shout for survival' as claim against Gibbons is heard in court "It hasn't come across the way I meant it," Moore conceded, but he insisted that in such a situation, he would "take a hold of the horse's head" to ensure he had full control of it and could avoid an accident. As he had done with Jim Crowley on Tuesday, Lawrence sought to neutralise Moore's impact as a witness by raising an instance when his riding had been found at fault, aboard Tilsit at Goodwood last year, when Moore was suspended for five days after causing interference. Moore accepted he should have reacted faster but said: "It didn't take place over three to four seconds, it happened over half a second where the horse shifted to his right. No horse went down, there were no injuries." When the hearing continues on Thursday, Jim McGrath of Sky Sports Racing will return to the witness stand, having just begun to undergo cross-examination on Wednesday. He stood by his position that Gibbons should have been found guilty of dangerous riding, even though the raceday stewards ruled the interference was accidental. Lawrence called attention to the experience of the stewards and asked if McGrath really believed they were capable of such a "complete howler". "There were mitigating circumstances but yes, that's my view," McGrath replied. "I think from the very limited transcript available, which Mr Gibbons said yesterday took five minutes, in light of the fact this was one of the most serious Flat racing incidents I can recall, and bearing in mind the little bit of evidence that was discussed raised questions that needed answers, and some of the jockeys were not interviewed, for obvious reasons, I think they were panicked." Gibbons denies negligence in relation to the 2016 fall. The hearing is due to end on Friday. |
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Could the stewards have made such a "complete howler" in ruling the interference was accidental?
This was Jim McGrath's response: Lawrence called attention to the experience of the stewards and asked if McGrath really believed they were capable of such a "complete howler". "There were mitigating circumstances but yes, that's my view," McGrath replied. "I think from the very limited transcript available, which Mr Gibbons said yesterday took five minutes, in light of the fact this was one of the most serious Flat racing incidents I can recall, and bearing in mind the little bit of evidence that was discussed raised questions that needed answers, and some of the jockeys were not interviewed, for obvious reasons, I think they were panicked." |
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Moore really shouldn’t have got involved in this. It’s all well and good him making statements about what a rider ‘should’ do, etc, but it was entirely predictable that GG’s brief would simply point to an example of Moore being done by the stewards. I doubt there’s many jockeys couldn’t have the same accusation made against them. Moore’s defence of himself, that ‘no horses went down, there were no injuries’, is completely beside the point (and McGrath falls into the same trap with the ‘most serious Flat racing incidents’ comment) - the act is either negligent or it is not.
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My thoughts exactly geoff m - I can’t see any reason why Crowley would perjure himself, but it doesn’t reflect well on him that, by his own admission, he failed to report GG to the stewards, as he’d be bound to do. This whole episode reflects very poorly on the weighing room in general.
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hello dr gonzo hope your well
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if gibbons is in front
doesnt being behind weigh more on what happened asking? never rode a horse in my life |
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This is a civil case.
There is no Jury. It does not have to be proven "Beyond reasonable doubt" The Judge will decide based on "The Balance of Probabilities" Gibbons his in more trouble than many on here seem to think. |
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"is" Apologies.
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Hello jimnast, long time no see! Doing ok thanks. Life has got in the way of getting to the racecourse for a while now, but hoping to get to Haydock before too long. you still betting there and getting about?
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yes had a day out there today dr gonzo annual member so go to almost all the meetings other than royal ascot saturday ,poor card today but enjoyed plenty of chat with people out in the fresh air ,hopefully see you there soon ,that said i am away for the february meeting.
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