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25 May 21 10:11
Date Joined: 16 Dec 18
| Topic/replies: 274 | Blogger: MythWA's blog
Letter in the RP.
74 yr old punter given a letter from an 'embarrassed shop manager' (he has been a customer for 50 years) demanding ACs passport wage slips bank statement etc He is not allowed to bet with any other shop (bookmaker not mentioned) until approved.
If this is true (presumably the RP followed it up) then this is as serious as it gets for the whole betting industry.
Pause Switch to Standard View Affordability Checks
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Report Brian May 25, 2021 11:13 AM BST
He surely will just use a different bookmaker but it is a load of nonsense unless they know he has a significant problem.
Report devilsadvocate May 25, 2021 11:23 AM BST

May 25, 2021 -- 11:13AM, Brian wrote:

He surely will just use a different bookmaker but it is a load of nonsense unless they know he has a significant problem.

Why should he have to use a different bookmaker? He has been a customer for 50 years and no doubt likes that shop. Also, at 74 he may have mobility issues preventing him from getting to another shop ?

Report railroader May 25, 2021 11:40 AM BST
Ridiculous I received an email 2 weeks ago off a bookie who wanted bank statements passport photo in the end I just asked them to withdraw all funds and shut the account
Report Blackrock May 25, 2021 11:46 AM BST
Bookies don't want affordability checks but have to. Things will only get worse with draconian limits on how much you can lose just around the corner.
Report Trident May 25, 2021 12:52 PM BST
Your be lucky to get a Tenner EW soon.
Report SlippyBlue May 25, 2021 12:53 PM BST
If anyone asked me for anything like this it would be instant closure of the account by me.
Report ericster May 25, 2021 1:23 PM BST
Report howard May 25, 2021 1:31 PM BST
Was he someone that had one of those card accounts in shops ?  Can someone post letter please ?
Report punts May 25, 2021 1:33 PM BST
I don't get why they are doing this..

Funds to wager with come from discretionary income or already built up funds.

Is anyone really taking out a loan to bet on here? is this what their concerned about or looking for?

It's also very intrusive. 

Not sure if I would submit to the checks myself. It could be a case of having no option Angry
Report punts May 25, 2021 1:34 PM BST
Sorry I should clarify: bookies* not here although I'm sure its coming
Report The Management May 25, 2021 2:29 PM BST
It seems increasingly obvious to me that this has got NOTHING to do with affordability and is all about inconveniencing/annoying/ditching customers that don't fit the right profile.

I am not anticipating that this will affect me - but if I thought that it would (or if came across an opportunity that involved having to make a large deposit) - I would be pre-empting it and writing in advance to ask for the formula/criteria that they are using to trigger an "affordability" check. My guess would be that they would not be able to provide one!
Report impossible123 May 25, 2021 6:21 PM BST
If this happens to me I'll be long gone, and probably bet elsewhere - legal or not. I'll never forward my personal financial account to bookie (never) as they cannot be trusted with only self-interest their only aim.

Affordability Check was bookies induced. They clearly got greedy and conveniently and deliberately ignored those account holders who'd not afford to lose or betting/losing mega amounts with funds fraudulently obtained.
Report donb May 25, 2021 6:27 PM BST
As usual with those do gooders putting this through the law of unintended consequences comes into play. Bookies will use this to target those with spare funds for special offers etc and they can ignore those who have little or no funds.  Way to go morons.
Report JML May 25, 2021 10:43 PM BST
Far to little information in the opening post.

He might of gone from someone who only placed 2 £1 lucky 15s a day pre lockdown to now losing £200 a day in the machine.

Normally the industry would take advantage of this obvious weakness in his mental health and do anything to leave him penniless.
Report ericster May 27, 2021 9:20 AM BST
If the government is so concerned about affordability, shouldn't they be going after the big-time losers with this?
I'm a two-quidder ffs.
My betting liabilities wouldn't feed the cat.
Report tony6499 May 27, 2021 10:21 AM BST
I do penny lines of place pots up to about £15 a bet on weekends and big meetings and got an email this week wanting to know all about my finances, job, etc
Report EastLower Gooner May 27, 2021 10:40 AM BST
He should carry out his own affordability check on the bookmaker.

How does he know the person he’s handing his cash over across the counter isn’t pocketing the money. Maybe giving it to ISIS or buying heroin and shooting up in the back.

These things happen and it’s important as customers to know they companies we use are well run imo

I remember a most amusing story from my local guy working in the shop...been there a few weeks scarpered off one evening with takings he was supposed to deposit at the bank.

Apparently booked a flight to India never to be seen again.

My area all of the punters are older gents just there for the chat so as soon as I popped in they couldn’t wait to tell me.

It was so funny...comments like - he was such a nice boy too lol
Report ericster May 27, 2021 10:49 AM BST
Report ericster May 27, 2021 10:53 AM BST
I bet a  betting offices are missing a few old boys now with this covid sh1t going on.
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy May 27, 2021 1:48 PM BST
this will happen (has happened to plenty i know) who deposit regularly and arnt willing show to show the source of income.
Report Fashion Fever May 27, 2021 1:49 PM BST
isn't lee your mate Steve
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy May 27, 2021 1:51 PM BST
where does a lee come into the equation?
Report ericster May 27, 2021 2:22 PM BST
Interesting perspective there TM.
Report RothmanMike May 27, 2021 3:08 PM BST
Probably scammers masquerading as bookmakers, trying to get bank details.
Ignore them, I’m sure they’ll go away.
Report ericster May 27, 2021 3:29 PM BST
Now [THERE'S] a thought.
Report The Management May 27, 2021 3:36 PM BST
As well as not trusting anyone that works for a bookmakers (in most shops the float goes missing about twice a year on average and somebody is sacked for pinching the "sleepers" on a regular basis) - but online I would be a lot more worried about secure storage and hackers.

Send all your vital personal details to a business that's responsible for a site that crashes more often than Evel Knievel and can't change a clock?

I don't think so.
Report Shanelee1966 May 27, 2021 5:24 PM BST
KYC. If they want to know me then i suggest they invite and the Mrs to join them at a nice restaurant.

Don`t send them feck all, too many scammers out there.
Report EastLower Gooner May 27, 2021 6:01 PM BST
Good point Management...

People should ask for extensive details on how your information will be treated ie

The full process guide from the moment the documents arrive to when it’s destroyed / removed from the system.

With full details of what is involved in each step along with names and background information on all individuals looking at it.

Also be petty and request that it be provided in they do.

Not being funny but such a document should exist right?
Report howard May 27, 2021 6:06 PM BST
Don't deposit.  Just win and withdraw. Simple.
Report The Management May 27, 2021 6:08 PM BST
I think that's it exactly howard - don't deposit - but it's a betting exchange - after a few months of this nonsense - who do you think you will be winning from?
Report trance May 27, 2021 6:53 PM BST
I like the fact the tote warn you that is you lose x amount more you'll be subject to financial checks yet send a marketing email encouraging you to bet virtually every day. I do one placepot on a saturday and never win, so they should be looking into my affairs in 2032.
Report Brian May 27, 2021 7:12 PM BST
If it would be useful if Betfair told us what their criteria is as some of those affected on here are lifetime winners (according to the forum messages anyway). It surely would help them if we avoided the pitfalls.
Report longbridge May 28, 2021 12:13 PM BST

" It surely would help them if we avoided the pitfalls"

Really?  Imagine this convo:

UKGC: "So, Betfair, you will have done those affordability checks you said you would?"
BF:   "Umm, no actually"
UKGC  "And why is that?"
BF:   "We told all our customers what the criteria for being checked were so they all gamed their behaviour to avoid them"
Report The Management May 28, 2021 12:33 PM BST
Sounds like the perfect solution to me longbridge - people that were deemed (albeit by some clueless quango) to be losing more than they could afford, moderate their behaviour and start to lose amounts that are deemed affordable. Is that not exactly the objective?
Report howard May 28, 2021 1:03 PM BST
TM , i'm just talking to forumites who are all winnersWink
Report The Management May 28, 2021 1:19 PM BST
As Hot Chocolate said Howard - "Everyone's a winner baby, that's the truth" Shocked

But it still begs the question - who will all the winners be winning from - once all the "degenerate losers" (that obviously don't post on here!) have had their deposits throttled?
Report ballyregan May 28, 2021 1:42 PM BST
today i have had my account suspended randomly for the fourth time in a year each time it was a pain to overcome but each time was done with flying colours , it is today another random security check this is not responsible gambling related but they they say they are allowed to do this at any stage after registration. having a betfair betting account is horrendous every time i log in or get an email i expect something negative from betfair i dread suspension or a negative email, I have accounts with laddies william hill smarkets and everythings positive tbh emails etc and i have had to verify once with betfair it is redtape city great exchange horrendous company to bet with so uncomfortable
Report ballyregan May 28, 2021 1:43 PM BST
ps just send in id address in and another utility bill within 6 months account reopened they must have a folder with all my material in unless they have lost it
Report RothmanMike May 28, 2021 1:51 PM BST
Looks like you are a newby.
You’ll get used to it.
Me,I’ve been on here for ages, and no account problems from Betfair whatsoever.
Report ericster May 28, 2021 1:52 PM BST

May 28, 2021 -- 1:19PM, The Management wrote:

As Hot Chocolate said Howard - "Everyone's a winner baby, that's the truth" But it still begs the question - who will all the winners be winning from - once all the "degenerate losers" (that obviously don't post on here!) have had their deposits throttled?

TM, you need more than us two-quidders that's for sure.
Have said that, maybe all of you big winners don't [all] win, [all] of the time.

Report ballyregan May 28, 2021 1:56 PM BST
yes rothman spot on my other accounts with other bookies longterm no hassle you are correct
Report BIGNORM. June 2, 2021 12:08 PM BST
Having spoken to someone who works for a high street bookmaker, he reckons this is more to do with fraud than affordability. He says that most bookmakers are triggering checks based on deposits, not taking into account withdrawals. Therefore the checks are looking to see who you are and where the money is coming from to discourage money laundering. The only way round it appears to be to not regularly draw down your balance. I suppose also for Betfair the funds are earning them something while they are with them, so a policy that encourages people to keep money in their accounts rather than keep depositing and withdrawing is a good one for them.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 2, 2021 2:49 PM BST
Yes. I've been making just the one withdrawal a month now to pay the bills. I don't dare take out any more in case a couple of disasters left me needing to make a deposit. Which would leave me completely screwed, with no source of income to offer up as evidence.

The result is a bonkers account balance, which, as you say, makes a super little earner for Betfair.

Thank you, Carolyn Harris. Working tirelessly to promote the interests of international gambling conglomerates.

Report dave1357 June 2, 2021 3:18 PM BST
makes a super little earner for Betfair

right now with negative interest rates not really.  BF hold customer funds in trust and probably have to pay insurance of some kind against the banks going busto, as that would cause Flutter to go busto as well.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 2, 2021 3:45 PM BST
Fair point, dave. Though I thought the point of holding clients' money in a ring-fenced trust fund is that it doesn't matter if either Betfair or the bank goes bust - neither can get their hands on the deposited capital.

I mean, if you start having to insure against the Royal Bank of Scotland fraudulently accessing Betfair clients' money and going bust, then you also have to insure against the insurer going bust and not paying out ... and so on ad infinitum. Happy to be proven wrong though.

Either way, the one group not being protected here is the punters - no longer can you withdraw winnings and buy something decent (or something the wife wants). Now you're forced to leave the winnings with the bookmaker, with all its attendant temptation (or danger of a fat finger moment).
Report jamesdean June 2, 2021 3:54 PM BST
Best way around that screaming is to...............bin the wife!
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 2, 2021 4:12 PM BST
I remember coming back from Goodwood one afternoon about 20 years ago, and the woman I was living with back then excitedly telling me about how the neighbours were having a manege built to exercise their horses. And she'd had a word with the builders, and they reckoned they could install one at our place for 11 grand, and if she got her dad to do the foundations, we could get the cost down to nine, maybe eight. That sounds good, doesn't it?

"Er ..."

"Well? Doesn't it?"

"Um, yes. Of course."

"Brilliant! So what was your day like then?"

"I did £3,400."


These days it's just me and the dog.
Report jamesdean June 2, 2021 4:20 PM BST
A man's best friend Grin
Report dave1357 June 2, 2021 4:31 PM BST
^^^^RBS pretty well did go bust and they were at one time Pstars' (now also part of Flutter) lead banker.  They also held customer funds in trust.

The trust simply protects us from Flutter's creditors.  Gordon Brown protected us from RBS's creditors. Wink

Anyway with interest rates so low it isn't much of a loss keeping the bankroll higher than it was.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 2, 2021 5:03 PM BST
Well, a bank can go bust independently of any funds it's holding for clients in trust - if it simply can't get its hands on those funds to bail out its other losses. But I don't doubt banks know of ways of getting around that problem in order to prove me wrong ("the money was merely resting in the wrong account").

From the punter's point of view though, it's not just a matter of loss of interest. It's the opportunity cost. Having to keep a  stupid sum in Betfair means you can't use that money for something else. You could even end up having to take out a loan to replace that unavailable money, and loans, at least, still charge interest.
Report dave1357 June 2, 2021 5:09 PM BST
the banking multiplier means that banks lend out the same deposit multiple times, so when the loans go bad the deposits simply don't exist.

gl with getting a loan with no income.
Report duffy June 2, 2021 5:21 PM BST
So you could have 10K sat in your account and lose the lot without any query from Betfair.

As soon as you deposit 500 quid or whatever it is, they get onto you demanding proof that you can afford to deposit the 500Laugh

If Jeremy Beadle was still with us I'd be looking under the table looking for himCrazy
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy June 2, 2021 5:37 PM BST
if new regs appear after you have 10k in acc then thats a totally different sceanrio.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 2, 2021 5:40 PM BST
dave ... the modern propunter is truly stuffed. You don't dare withdraw your winnings to buy anything, because you have no proof of income; but you can't borrow the money instead, also because you have no proof of income.
Report duffy June 2, 2021 5:47 PM BST
What abut if you turned 500 into 10K, withdrew 9K and then deposited 1K the following week.

Rather than accept the likelihood you are playing with profits they would instead demand that you prove you can afford.Their default position seems to be that that you immediately spend the 9K elsewhere and is therefore no longer available to you resulting in you having to spend the rent money on gambling.

I think a profitable account, certainly recent profitability at least should count for something.
Report duffy June 2, 2021 5:49 PM BST
Can't help but wonder just how hot (or otherwise) they are with the people depositing and doing their money on the slots day after day?
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy June 2, 2021 5:55 PM BST
i know plenty who have turned over millions last struggling and no income..been only depositing last few mths and asked to prove income..they cant so acc been closed.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 2, 2021 5:57 PM BST
That's the problem. No point carefully keeping your account open if there's no one left to win off.
Report Wesdag June 2, 2021 5:59 PM BST

Jun 2, 2021 -- 5:55PM, greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy wrote:

i know plenty who have turned over millions last struggling and no income..been only depositing last few mths and asked to prove income..they cant so acc been closed.

is that can't or wont prove income?

Report duffy June 2, 2021 6:01 PM BST
How does the process work from the point they contact you,

Is there a default restriction for allthat people are allowed to deposit until you prove otherwise?

Is everyone judged independently with the limit allowed judged on Betfair's best guess until you prove otherwise?

Is your account suspended immediately until you prove otherwise?
Report BIGNORM. June 2, 2021 6:35 PM BST
I got asked about 6 weeks ago for the docs and my account was immediately limited to £150 deposit a day which is more than I need anyway. The problem is they then followed that up with a reminder 4 weeks later giving another 4 weeks to send the docs or the account is shut completely. I don't use the site much these days so I'm not that fussed but it is a bit irritating. Most people will just move to the other exchanges, but I hear that they have very similar systems. The answer if you want to keep your account is to not withdraw below an amount you think would carry you through a lean patch as others have mentioned. A bit annoying as it is money you won't see, and it is like paying to use the exchange on top of your fees.
Report greenteethnarrabacktroutmoy June 2, 2021 7:03 PM BST have to have a justifiable income..a deposit of cash or from another persons bank acc isnt acceptable.
Report Wesdag June 2, 2021 7:27 PM BST
ok ta
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