on course bookmakers

They were ALL WAYS under betfair prices before, nothing will change when they are back, not in the punters favour anyway.

Tbf there not going to be bigger than Betfair, that would be stupid

as a matter of interest how will they get the betting shop shows ?

Surely they can check betting shop shows online.

each firm do there own prices now so how could they check them all ? and as you know because you started a thread on it today they are short on the fancied runners now there is no show from the racecourse.so if racecourse bookmakers do return and are back in the sp the online and betting shop punters will be better of.

jimnast, has it been agreed that SP and the markets will no longer be from oncourse bookmakers once we return to normal?

it's about time the Betfair SP is added to the pool to decide the SP

with a deduction to each horses odds to make it reasonably fair

as far as i know sparrow its undecided.

That was my point jimnast as I expected it to go back to as it was before which the OP doesn't seem to make clear in his  question.

Asking a bookmaker to offer bf prices is like asking a car salesman to sell at cost.

manoleeds , who is asking a bookmaker to offer betfair odds

it's about time the Betfair SP is added to the pool to decide the SP

with a deduction to each horses odds to make it reasonably fair

Fair enough -I read Swampy as saying that just as car sales use Glasses or CAP as a guide, that Betfair was to be the preferred price .

what happens the day befair crashes, will there be no sp returned that day, i agree there needs to be a modernisation of the current return system but if off course wants to provide an sp it wont be in favour of the punter in the long term ...the sps of the front of the market will be shorter than under on course sps.having said that id be interested to know if there are many sp punters left in the world.

it's about time the Betfair SP is added to the pool to decide the SP

i believe the SP is returned by taking a few ( someone on here will know how many ) of the on course bookmakers prices and there is some kind of calculation , kind of like finding the avergae of all prices , but i think they use the highest and lowest from all the books put together ( i think )

betfair SP should be included whether we go back to on course odds or not .

obviously 500/1 on betfair wouldn't be 500/1 , there would be a calculation so that each horse returns a 1.5% over roaund or whatever , so 2.7 might return 6/4

if that makes sense

ambush , i'm not saying to use betfair on its own , but in conjunction

i know pablo.of  maybe its time that a win only sp and a place only sp. you couldnt use the betfair win sp for nearly every race with odds on chances or 16 runner hcps. would you include betd8Q . i can see the current off course sp becoming  the norm .long term it wont be good for punters, but as i said does anyone bet sp anymore.

you couldnt use the betfair win sp for nearly every race with odds on chances

good point

they probably could calculate that in somewhere . possibly by using the betfair place market in conjunction with the win market to give a win SP that would be usable in every race.

in the dirty each way races , if you have £10 each way at bookmakers SP , but split that £20 between the place market on betfair and win market to win the same amount  , there is not much difference , ie win odds:
5/1 bookies
12/1 betfair

if you have £5 win on betfair to win and £15 in the place market , the return is very similar to the bookies £10 e/w bet

i think there is an opportunity to overhaul the whole e/w system. maybe its time to  be like the tote with a separate win and place market.the current betfair e/w market is not strong enough. the other worry is how weak betfair can be by the time the shows come in ( 8 mins before off). the problem will be variation in prices between the last show and sp if you only include bf in the sp. there is no simple answer

true

having said that id be interested to know if there are many sp punters left in the world.

other than the legions of BOG punters?

thank you dw2e.it didnt cross my simple mind. im no longer privy to such concessions. if betfair are included in the sp then i could see that dissapearing.

cheers Ambush. Makes a massive difference to the bottom line of both sides. Even a point either way on SP vs morning price is significant - but sometimes it's several points. A concession that grew from competition and is extended to most casual punters. Of course, money gained punter side through BOG is mostly recycled, but it is the perception of value that keeps that money in the market.

Under the old system, I'd imagine plenty of punters felt disenfranchised when they saw book SP's returned significantly lower than BSP as a result of on course rep manipulation.

its a very good concession . the punter always likes to remember the betfair sp when industry is much shorter . they always forget that there is no concession with b/f. how often have we all taken a betfair price, smile when we see it shorten , but ends up driftingto a much bigger price. if betfair have an input to the final sp,it will be very difficult for books to maintain that concession.im always amazed how often the horses that the sp books manuipulate win....the sharp minds are supposed to be on here.

Fair point ambush. it's swings and roundabouts. With regards to SP manipulation, they were shorting their liabilities - generally top two, as the moth is mostly drawn to the light. No credit due.

sorry dw2e.i meant the ones they really manipulate.ones that shorten from 7/4 to 5/4 but drift to 7/2 or 4/1 on here. its amazing how often they win. i think we can safely say going forward that the on course contribution to the sp going forward will diminish. i always worry when super powers get too much power......it wont be beneficial to the punter.

why do we need to overhaul the whole ew system surely the punters deserve a choice those who want to bet place only can do so on exchanges or with the tote ,those who want to bet ew as they do now can continue to do so,the choices now range from 1st 3 in 7 runners races on occasions to first 8 of the big handicaps ,whats the problem with choice ?

Would it have been Haydock today Jimnast?

yes ribero it would, the other day we were talking about races never missed i had forgot the betfair chase with it been a new race,

Used to be a very good day when it started,first year i think they got a load of results,good racing anyhow and the footballs back.

yes the racing is good to be fair its nearly always decent haydock national hunt ,really enjoy going hopefully back for easter

been a member perhaps the greenhall whitley fixture if things go well.

good morning jimnast. the punter has to sacrifice on the win market when theres an odds on shot. the sp is tied in to the place market, take the first race in gowran yesterday . the sp of the 2nd was 7/2...its bf sp was 11/2....the place market was 1.7 sp versus 1.4 bf. the sp in its current form is distorted because its tied to the 1/5 formula. happens every day.

going forward it will be very difficult to tie in bf into the sp s when your incorporating a win market into an e/w sp

Id suggest is something sinister going on.

Argued with plenty bookmakers on here in first lockdown, infact debated maybe.

Racing post did a study and it proved that the new system was better for punters than using the on course bunch.

I wonder if you repeated the study now who would come out on top? Seem dreadful Sp's last few months to me, I think there was a conscious effort made to ensure they were beating bookie SP for a period of time and then dropped after.

Wouldnt bother me if you completely wiped the on course lot out, but I think there may be some sort of room for those taking a stance going forward?

I'm not taking about going over the exchange but a good example might be 2.7 on here is now 6/4 under new system, can I book wanting to take a fav on go 8/5 13/8?

Not interested in seeing the on course lot back if we are getting the classic "we bet to 120% to pay our expenses"!!!

good morning ambush it would indeed be difficult on top of that not sure its right for unlicensed layers to have an imput into the sp system.

ribero was you allowed your free bet on the betfair chase ?

Not that i'm aware of?

can not be to bothered talking to you swaddle but one thing i will say is that if there were on course books at wetherby last week there would not of been an sp where the 10/11 2nd fav beat the 5/6 fav.

i do not know how betfair have got away with the advertising down the years today they say everyone gets a free fiver on the betfair chase both old and new customers simply not true.

Jimnast

sad to say no free bet for me
hope you are well
have a good day
regards
Ronnie.

hope your well ronnie thanks for the reply so false advertising yet again from betfair.

Thank you for providing that example regardless of the fact it was stated in a rude manner.

your welcome swaddle perhaps if you did not have a go at racecourse bookmakers at every opportunity i would have worded it different.

advertising standards authority website to fill in a form for any false advertising they will adjudicate and look into any complaint

jimnast • November 21, 2020 11:57 AM GMT
good morning ambush it would indeed be difficult on top of that not sure its right for unlicensed layers to have an imput into the sp system.

lets get real here jimanst

every bookamker in the country follows the betfair price , it's impossible for anyone to come up with their odds independently and always be below betfairs odds   , it is the unlicensed layers that are already dictating what the SP should be or will be .

on course bookmakers just don't like the fact the are dictated to by what happens on here , but that's just how it is now

in the modern world we all dream of utopia
we want a tote monopoly to put money back into racing, but we want a tote deduction of less than 10%. we want a betfair monopoly on course where we all pay 2% commission. yet we squeal when we dont get a free 5 pound bet on the betfair chase, we want horses coupled only when the stable outsider wins. we want all the bookmakers concessions, yet squeal when they wont take our bets. the on course bookmakers keep putting up prices they dont want to lay to big wagers because the bf market is so weak until the final few mins.on course bookmakers (whom i like and are an endangered species)are their own worst enemies.they offer the same product as they did 50 years ago.i worry for their future. but as i said previously the less choice we have the worse it is for the general punter.sorry for my rant.

ambush....Just read through your post which lists criticisms about punters and bookmakers alike yet don't put forward any ideas of your own for the future.

people dont moan about not getting the £5 bet and bookmaker concessions,its the advertising of them which imply everybody gets them especially when you cannot even get the b part of bets with the big bookmakers that really gets to people

Nov 22, 2020 -- 3:53AM, GAZO wrote:

people dont moan about not getting the £5 bet and bookmaker concessions,its the advertising of them which imply everybody gets them especially when you cannot even get the b part of bets with the big bookmakers that really gets to people

Correct.

Swaddle, I agree with your observation on the recent increase in SP overrounds. It would be interesting to see some up to date stats on this.

to be fair you really dont need to see any stats to do with big bookmakers having control of the sp in the current climate,in the longer term they cannot ever be trusted to be fair,they showed their hand with opening shops to get more fobt's in the high street and claiming everyone was wrong when it was pointed out thats what they were doing,the maximum stake decrease showed who was right

we have no data from the old sp system no more, the pr of the bookmakers have done a job in getting punters to agree the new sp system is better for them, as we have seen the upside is the bigger prices on the outsiders but how sustainable is that, we have fallen in the trap once the bookmakers have complete control of the new sp system and things get back to normal the squeeze on all prices will start and we will realize we have been fooled but it will be to late

sparrow posted a thread earlier in the week an article regarding the prices of horses at the front of the betting ,it was very interesting and i am surprised the thread did not create more interest,

i also agree with gazo 1053 post and know alls last post.

jimnast........Here is that article again below.




Starting prices generated off-course for well-backed horses offer poorer value than SPs returned from on-course betting, according to HBF research

Greg Wood in The Guardian Newspaper



Industry starting prices generated from the off-course market while racing continues behind closed doors offer poorer value about fancied horses than SPs returned from the on-course betting ring, according to the latest study by the Horseracing Bettors Forum which compared SPs in 1,000 races in Britain last month against the same period in the previous three years.

The starting price has been a cornerstone of betting on horse racing for more than two centuries, and until March this year, the SPs had always been derived from a sample of prices offered by on-course bookies at the instant the runners set off.

When racing briefly moved behind closed doors in mid-March, however, the Starting Price Regulatory Commission – which is responsible for the accuracy and integrity of SPs – switched instead to a sample of off-course bookmakers’ prices, and that Industry SP (ISP) system was maintained when racing resumed post-lockdown on 1 June.

The HBF has been monitoring SP returns since 1 June and has found that the overround-per-runner (OPR) for ISPs – that is, the overall profit margin on the book divided by the numbers of runners – has been highly competitive with its predecessor. In June, in fact, the OPR was just over 1.5%, well below the average for the month in the previous three years of just under 1.9%.

The OPR has risen steadily since, though the October figure of just under 1.7pc was still slightly below the monthly average.

It is the expected return on investment (ROI) for bets on favourites versus bets on outsiders, however, which appears to reveal a subtle shift in the value on offer to backers. The HBF analysis looked at the ROI for the first three in the betting in handicaps – which tend to have bigger fields – and the first two in the market in non-handicaps.

In handicaps, it found that the ROI on SPs returned from the on-course market was -12% from 2017-19, but -14.8% since the introduction of Industry SPs. This was accompanied by a better ROI on the remaining horses in the race, up from -22.7% to -20.3%. In non-handicaps, the trend was similar, with ROI on the front two in the betting dropping from -9.2% to -11%, while the ROI on all other runners was -38.3% under the traditional system and 34.4% for the ISP.
sparrow 20 Nov 20 10:45 
An extra 2.8% on the amount that punters can expect to lose by backing market leaders at SP might not sound like a huge jump, but as HBF’s analysis points out, it can improve a bookie’s bottom line in a number of ways. In addition to boosting the gross margin on win bets, it will also improve the margin on multiples, most of which contain one or more favourites. The frequency and size of online payouts under “Best Odds Guaranteed” rules – where punters take a price and the SP is better – will also be reduced.

“Our SP analysis shows that punters betting the first two or three in the market will now be worse off than when SPs were derived from on-course bookmakers,” Colin Hord, the chair of the HBF, said on Thursday. “However those punters that bet longer-priced horses, which win less frequently, will be finding some additional returns. We will continue to review the figures, especially now that we have additional data from National Hunt racing.”

thanks sparrow

its a worse situation than that article says,i picked a fair race not a bad ew race no extra places with hills

133 exeter 11 runners %127 book and when the shops are open they bet even tighter as the shop punters really do get it rammed up them.

uttox 228 1st 4 1/5th 14 runners %133

Thanks sparrow.

even more careful on the aw {understanable}325 wollybags 11 runners in at %130 thats the future with industry prices.

Nov 22, 2020 -- 7:01AM, jimnast wrote:

even more careful on the aw {understanable}325 wollybags 11 runners in at %130 thats the future with industry prices.

Pretty sure if the bookmakers had of offered a better product in the first place we wouldn't of got to this stage.

Why were most punters not bothered what system was used to return the Sp's?

Because track bookmakers offered terrible value and the new system had a chance to better that (it didnt)

Can any of the oncourse bookmakers tell me why there is no variation in the betting rings any more, why do none of them bet without the fav now unless their is a 1/5 fav. Punters want some variation not all the boards showing the same prices, how about any books showing place only prices on their boards. To get punters to go racing AGAIN you have got to offer some sort of variation not all win or e/w and showing the same prices.

It looks like we could all be going back on course if the on course market grabs this opportunity punters will flood back if they are getting ripped off in the shops there is still a hard core who like cash me included, i remember the days of tax free on course and you went every time you could but do you think the on course will grab this chance ? not really

clayfield1 - the lack of variation is down to the exchanges and the tight margins on course.  Where we used to be 4/1 or 9/2 with 5/1 a place we are all now 11/2 the same horse. Punters on course better off than they've ever been but they moan we are all the bigger price mostly (there will always be some variations if you look but I accept not as much as there used to be). Regarding betting without the favourite, there simply is too little demand on course unless it is an uncompetitive heat.  A few have tried it, all gave it up.  Finally regarding place only show, that was investigated and we were told by the Gambling Commission that it was not allowed. Only win or ew prices allowed.  We get a lot of stick for not changing with the times but the fact is there are a lot of innovative bookies on course but they are being held back by the stupid amounts of rules and regulations that we are forced to operate under.

wasnot, Thanks for your reply.

I know of at least one on course bookmaker who would lay place only and he posts on this forum too.

sadly for on course bookmakers pretty much everybody has a mobile phone,people are using cash less and after we get back to normal that will get worse and then you get courses charging more to get in (which also means bookmakers expenses go up )and then charge massive mark ups on food and drink when you do get in,looks a long way back to me

I see they're at it again at Kempton.


12.50 Kempton
Full Result
1st
Ajero  (1)
10/11
2nd
Captain Morgs  (2)
5/6fav

didnt even get a mention on ruk did it

That is mind numbingly pathetic.

10/11  the pair would be tight.

swaddle worse still change the result change the sp as at wetherby,the off course bookmakers are abusing the position they have been given due to no on course imput in the sp.

Off course bookmakers obviously aren't to be trusted with SP returns. As jimnast has said they are already abusing their  responsibility in setting the markets.

good afternoon clayfield


wasnot has given you a very accurate answer,i would like to add and judging by your start date on here you will remember the racecourse 20 plus years ago when the vast majority of the crowd understood racing and punting,the crowd now do not understand betting without there was an article in the racing post a few years ago about the figures mark hill had on his board derby day ,the racing post expert journalist did an article knocking him for been 5/2 when everyone else was around 4/1 been 5/1 were everywhere else it was 6/1 plus if he was 8/1 everyone else was 10/1 plus and so on,mark wrote a letter to the post pointing out there expert had failed to notice he was betting without to be fair the post did at least print the letter.

in ireland where the crowd is so much different many bet without some in fact bet without the front two all day everyday.

wasnot pointed out restrictions on course bookmakers have to abide by i will give you an example at chester and bangor where chester bet put there joints wherever the want to they deduct %10 of the bookmakers sp thats after charging them fortunes to bet in the first place, when it was suggested that bookmakers advertised this was going on and the on course bookmaker would always pay more they were told it would be illegal and they must not try and do any honest advertising.

sparrow as long as the ruthless racing press dont ask any questions it will get worse lets face it ,its only 9 days since wetherby.

300 muss 10 runners 1st 3 1/5th no tricky ew %126 hills just bend over sir.

something you would never see from on course books even in new areas on prime days is 15/8 a horse that is 4.2 on here{ kempton 310}yet hills can lay that to an almost world wide audience.at least skybet are 2/1 .

sparrow 1344 post loads will do it if asked.

jimnast.....Surely the bookmakers on course could put up a sign saying "place only bets accepted here" ?

Speaking of variation which included betting without the fav and place only betting I can remember watching my father clerking on the "aways" on course in the 1950s.

they probably could sparrow not %100 sure that said the amount they have to display already is plenty.

the aways are not very popular anymore for the same reason as the betting without the crowd most of the time dont understand whats going on at the course they are at especially in the summer.

Too true jimnast, a very different world at the racecourse these days.

i do think if the public are allowed back before march you will see a lot more racing people for a time.

There seem to be a lot of 12+ fields (including handicaps) where the first 4 in the betting add up to over 100% overround.

Money is not going through the hands of racecourse bookies at the moment and some of that money will be going online including here. Some people will be betting more money with no travel costs admission costs and beer/food spend.

Sparrow, yes we can accept place only bets and can advertise as such (I take them myself) but we cannot display a separate place market.  If we take place only bets it has to be at 1/5th or 1/4 of the win market price depending on the type of race (the fraction is set depending upon race conditions and we cannot change it, unlike off course, except to make it more in the punters' favour).  We also cannot change the number of places we pay out on, except to make it more in the punters' favour, unlike the off course.

Thanks for the explanation wasnot but didn't realise you couldn't change the amount of places you paid on. I assume though you that you would reduce the places paid if there was a late non runner in a field of 8.

jimnast, yes I used to be a regular racegoer used to go most weekend and some night meetings plus a few big mid week meetings some years as many as 90-100 meetings a year but cut back big time about 4 years ago, as I said in my other post their is no variation on the boards, 99% of them are the same price and none will beat betfair, so why bother paying to go racing when I can get better prices sat at home, The only thing I miss  is the banter with the lads who I got to know over the years, but having said that a lot of them now do exactly the same as me stay at home. Good luck jimnast hope things soon get bag to normal for you.

jimnast et al - been a frequent racegoer (min 40 meetings per year) and punter (every day!) for more than 40 years now - in the far distant days of my youth, going racing was mostly about finding the best price with the bookies, running up and down the rows of books (there would be at least 40 at a regular ayr meeting)...avoiding betting tax must also have been a factor but I have no idea to what extent and perhaps some of the bigger punters were able to get on on course but not in the shops??

there was (to my mind at least and based primarily on the southern courses where I was living then) a reduction in the number of books and the competition for prices PRIOR to the exchanges but their advent undoubtedly accelerated the decline to the current woeful state (maybe a dozen books at Ayr and they've even had to move to the parade ring as people apparently not interested in walking 30 yards to the previous location!!

now as said oftentimes and below, we are faced with an array of LEDs which are almost synchronised - even at Aintree (the last really large meeting I attended), there was very little variance, maybe if you were lucky you could get 12s on a 10s shot or 25s on a 20s but more than likely better on exchange and for ew betting (which I favour) almost certainly better odds/places online. as there are several bookies on here I won't be too derogatory but there's no doubt there's been little if any innovation to try and combat the online alternatives but I definitely agree that the 'intelligence' of the attendees at racing nowadays is far removed from 40 years ago!! the racecourses have of course encouraged (via their ladies/gents/music promotions) and the media (ITV especially) have played their part with continuous and extremely frustrating 'dumbing down'..

in summary I can't wait to get back on course but it won't be for betting but much more the social side and seeing the horses/jockeys up close..where the on course books go next, I wouldn't know, but I don't see a rosy future (perhaps god forbid if betting tax is re-introduced off course? to pay the covid bill)

Gordon, your final line is interesting about the reintroduction of betting tax. I have wondered about that myself but I think the government knows that it will reduce turnover and thus the levy. Hence, I suspect the reintroduction of off-course tax could end up as a negative sum.

I totally agree with the rest of your post but the sad demise of the on-course books is simply a consequence of how things move 'forward'.

Exchanges came about because of the internet and it is the internet that has changed, or even killed, many things during the past 25 years. High streets are finished now and this is because the internet enabled on-line shopping.

It is always sad when the older generations in society, of which I am one at 60, see something they grew up with taken away or radically changed but that is life.

Also, we must all remember that things we became used to often came about at the expense of what went before them. Hence, people well before us must have been equally disappointed when cars began to replace horses - and that is just one example. Life does change, and in twenty years time I suspect racecourse bookies may well be a thing of the past - sad though that will be.

BUT, perhaps someone will come along who finds a way to change the model of on-course bookmaking so radically it can prosper again? If I were 40 years younger I'd certainly be thinking along those lines!

Agreed The Knight. I went for a walk with a friend yesterday (I'm about the same age as you) and we were reminiscing about: Lemonade lorries, and coal-men, and rag-and-bone men, and other stuff that was normal only a few short decades ago ..... we evolve, sometimes positively, sometimes not ...... you just have to roll with it, unless it's deeply offending your sense of what is right and wrong..... having gambled my life away I can't help but thinking that the UK would generally be a better place without this game BUT that comes from someone who was obsessive. There are many millions who just have a nice time with a very small flutter and a good day out. So why deprive them. On course bookmakers - I guess they deserve a living too ... but maybe they could do something more contributing to society than this. Maybe.

Overrounds really poor at York today.

Does anyone know if it’s charity day or bookmaker charity day.

120 to 140 % thus far.

(COME RACING)

On course bookmakers don't try and do any thing different, all the same price almost none of them betting without the fav, why don't some of the back line books try something different, on the distance, bracket groups of horses together and price up. I guess the answer is most of them would be unable to price any thing up without using betfair.

They need betfair to price up a coin toss.

Itsneswaddle
been to York today had  2 bets 3rd and 4th race the bookmaker i has the bets with his best prices were to the bone maybe even over broke.sad to say he will be having dinner on me tonight.

regards

Ronnie.

I was at York yesterday too. The funniest thing was one bookmaker who for about two seconds had 12/5 when those around had 9/4. I don't think he even had time to take a bet at that price before he went back to 9/4. What strikes me, as someone who has been going racing for over 50 years, is the lack of excitement/atmosphere in the betting ring. I know that yesterday was a relatively minor York day -but I went on the Ebor Friday and it was the same - albeit more crowded. There's no point a bookmaker shouting out his prices when everyone else is the same.

York actually picked up yesterday, the prices were not great that I saw but not the 120-140% I quoted.

Slickster is right, the very few that could still price up a market now own a useless skill, which is sad.

Ronnie I didnt see anything remotely near an overbroke book so well done for getting on commision free

There must not be any appeitite for innovation from punters otherwise someone would try something else rather than just rows and rows of the exact same price, or a bad price with an even worse one next door.

Go back to the likes of Market Rasen, earlier in summer, with a 1/10 fav running, I asked about 5 diff books for a distances/lengths won by split, I waas getting comedy gold answers, all clueless bar a couple that just gave a fair enough reponse, I dont bet on that S----.

At some of the midweek stuff I am surprised they do not have some sort of rota to save themselves some time. 20 books in the ring or 30 books in the ring the ring itself will still recieve the same amount of cash from punters.

Itsme swaddle

5th race yesterday best prices
9/4
11/2
18/1
9/2
5/2
not bad percentages

regrads Ronnie

swaddle, That's like I said none of them are willing to try any thing different. You would think some of the back line boys would at least give it a go.

plenty have introduced forecast betting on display boards..especially useful with the increasing number of smaller fields these days....distance betting never has had much appeal to be honest

Respect to anyone trying something different. As long as it’s at a fair %

Newcastle tonight same old same old. Rotten prices.

bet on all seven at york yesterday one per cent per runner (did have expenses to cover)..in the glorious york sunshine bet the forecast on all races ..ew.betting on the four runner races  as a courtesy to the public come racing and bet horses who are much bigger than the industry sps