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If bookmakers make a return to on course betting ,will they use Betfair shows as their guide or just be under the shows in betting shops.if they are going to be under the latter , then punters are in for a very rough time
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They were ALL WAYS under betfair prices before, nothing will change when they are back, not in the punters favour anyway.
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Tbf there not going to be bigger than Betfair, that would be stupid
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as a matter of interest how will they get the betting shop shows ?
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Surely they can check betting shop shows online.
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each firm do there own prices now so how could they check them all ? and as you know because you started a thread on it today they are short on the fancied runners now there is no show from the racecourse.so if racecourse bookmakers do return and are back in the sp the online and betting shop punters will be better of.
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jimnast, has it been agreed that SP and the markets will no longer be from oncourse bookmakers once we return to normal?
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it's about time the Betfair SP is added to the pool to decide the SP
with a deduction to each horses odds to make it reasonably fair |
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as far as i know sparrow its undecided.
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That was my point jimnast as I expected it to go back to as it was before which the OP doesn't seem to make clear in his question.
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Asking a bookmaker to offer bf prices is like asking a car salesman to sell at cost.
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manoleeds , who is asking a bookmaker to offer betfair odds
 it's about time the Betfair SP is added to the pool to decide the SP with a deduction to each horses odds to make it reasonably fair |
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Fair enough -I read Swampy as saying that just as car sales use Glasses or CAP as a guide, that Betfair was to be the preferred price .
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what happens the day befair crashes, will there be no sp returned that day, i agree there needs to be a modernisation of the current return system but if off course wants to provide an sp it wont be in favour of the punter in the long term ...the sps of the front of the market will be shorter than under on course sps.having said that id be interested to know if there are many sp punters left in the world.
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it's about time the Betfair SP is added to the pool to decide the SP
i believe the SP is returned by taking a few ( someone on here will know how many ) of the on course bookmakers prices and there is some kind of calculation , kind of like finding the avergae of all prices , but i think they use the highest and lowest from all the books put together ( i think ) betfair SP should be included whether we go back to on course odds or not . obviously 500/1 on betfair wouldn't be 500/1 , there would be a calculation so that each horse returns a 1.5% over roaund or whatever , so 2.7 might return 6/4 if that makes sense |
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ambush , i'm not saying to use betfair on its own , but in conjunction
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i know pablo.of maybe its time that a win only sp and a place only sp. you couldnt use the betfair win sp for nearly every race with odds on chances or 16 runner hcps. would you include betd8Q . i can see the current off course sp becoming the norm .long term it wont be good for punters, but as i said does anyone bet sp anymore.
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you couldnt use the betfair win sp for nearly every race with odds on chances
good point they probably could calculate that in somewhere . possibly by using the betfair place market in conjunction with the win market to give a win SP that would be usable in every race. in the dirty each way races , if you have £10 each way at bookmakers SP , but split that £20 between the place market on betfair and win market to win the same amount , there is not much difference , ie win odds: 5/1 bookies 12/1 betfair if you have £5 win on betfair to win and £15 in the place market , the return is very similar to the bookies £10 e/w bet |
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i think there is an opportunity to overhaul the whole e/w system. maybe its time to be like the tote with a separate win and place market.the current betfair e/w market is not strong enough. the other worry is how weak betfair can be by the time the shows come in ( 8 mins before off). the problem will be variation in prices between the last show and sp if you only include bf in the sp. there is no simple answer
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true
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having said that id be interested to know if there are many sp punters left in the world.
other than the legions of BOG punters? |
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thank you dw2e.it didnt cross my simple mind. im no longer privy to such concessions. if betfair are included in the sp then i could see that dissapearing.
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cheers Ambush. Makes a massive difference to the bottom line of both sides. Even a point either way on SP vs morning price is significant - but sometimes it's several points. A concession that grew from competition and is extended to most casual punters. Of course, money gained punter side through BOG is mostly recycled, but it is the perception of value that keeps that money in the market.
Under the old system, I'd imagine plenty of punters felt disenfranchised when they saw book SP's returned significantly lower than BSP as a result of on course rep manipulation. |
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its a very good concession . the punter always likes to remember the betfair sp when industry is much shorter . they always forget that there is no concession with b/f. how often have we all taken a betfair price, smile when we see it shorten , but ends up driftingto a much bigger price. if betfair have an input to the final sp,it will be very difficult for books to maintain that concession.im always amazed how often the horses that the sp books manuipulate win....the sharp minds are supposed to be on here.
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Fair point ambush. it's swings and roundabouts. With regards to SP manipulation, they were shorting their liabilities - generally top two, as the moth is mostly drawn to the light. No credit due.
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sorry dw2e.i meant the ones they really manipulate.ones that shorten from 7/4 to 5/4 but drift to 7/2 or 4/1 on here. its amazing how often they win. i think we can safely say going forward that the on course contribution to the sp going forward will diminish. i always worry when super powers get too much power......it wont be beneficial to the punter.
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why do we need to overhaul the whole ew system surely the punters deserve a choice those who want to bet place only can do so on exchanges or with the tote ,those who want to bet ew as they do now can continue to do so,the choices now range from 1st 3 in 7 runners races on occasions to first 8 of the big handicaps ,whats the problem with choice ?
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Would it have been Haydock today Jimnast?
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yes ribero it would, the other day we were talking about races never missed i had forgot the betfair chase with it been a new race,
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Used to be a very good day when it started,first year i think they got a load of results,good racing anyhow and the footballs back.
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yes the racing is good to be fair its nearly always decent haydock national hunt ,really enjoy going hopefully back for easter
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been a member perhaps the greenhall whitley fixture if things go well.
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good morning jimnast. the punter has to sacrifice on the win market when theres an odds on shot. the sp is tied in to the place market, take the first race in gowran yesterday . the sp of the 2nd was 7/2...its bf sp was 11/2....the place market was 1.7 sp versus 1.4 bf. the sp in its current form is distorted because its tied to the 1/5 formula. happens every day.
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going forward it will be very difficult to tie in bf into the sp s when your incorporating a win market into an e/w sp
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Id suggest is something sinister going on.
Argued with plenty bookmakers on here in first lockdown, infact debated maybe. Racing post did a study and it proved that the new system was better for punters than using the on course bunch. I wonder if you repeated the study now who would come out on top? Seem dreadful Sp's last few months to me, I think there was a conscious effort made to ensure they were beating bookie SP for a period of time and then dropped after. Wouldnt bother me if you completely wiped the on course lot out, but I think there may be some sort of room for those taking a stance going forward? I'm not taking about going over the exchange but a good example might be 2.7 on here is now 6/4 under new system, can I book wanting to take a fav on go 8/5 13/8? Not interested in seeing the on course lot back if we are getting the classic "we bet to 120% to pay our expenses"!!! |
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good morning ambush it would indeed be difficult on top of that not sure its right for unlicensed layers to have an imput into the sp system.
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ribero was you allowed your free bet on the betfair chase ?
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Not that i'm aware of?
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can not be to bothered talking to you swaddle but one thing i will say is that if there were on course books at wetherby last week there would not of been an sp where the 10/11 2nd fav beat the 5/6 fav.
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i do not know how betfair have got away with the advertising down the years today they say everyone gets a free fiver on the betfair chase both old and new customers simply not true.
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