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Jimnast
sad to say no free bet for me hope you are well have a good day regards Ronnie. |
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hope your well ronnie thanks for the reply so false advertising yet again from betfair.
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Thank you for providing that example regardless of the fact it was stated in a rude manner.
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your welcome swaddle perhaps if you did not have a go at racecourse bookmakers at every opportunity i would have worded it different.
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advertising standards authority website to fill in a form for any false advertising they will adjudicate and look into any complaint
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jimnast • November 21, 2020 11:57 AM GMT
good morning ambush it would indeed be difficult on top of that not sure its right for unlicensed layers to have an imput into the sp system. lets get real here jimanst every bookamker in the country follows the betfair price , it's impossible for anyone to come up with their odds independently and always be below betfairs odds , it is the unlicensed layers that are already dictating what the SP should be or will be . on course bookmakers just don't like the fact the are dictated to by what happens on here , but that's just how it is now |
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in the modern world we all dream of utopia
we want a tote monopoly to put money back into racing, but we want a tote deduction of less than 10%. we want a betfair monopoly on course where we all pay 2% commission. yet we squeal when we dont get a free 5 pound bet on the betfair chase, we want horses coupled only when the stable outsider wins. we want all the bookmakers concessions, yet squeal when they wont take our bets. the on course bookmakers keep putting up prices they dont want to lay to big wagers because the bf market is so weak until the final few mins.on course bookmakers (whom i like and are an endangered species)are their own worst enemies.they offer the same product as they did 50 years ago.i worry for their future. but as i said previously the less choice we have the worse it is for the general punter.sorry for my rant. |
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ambush....Just read through your post which lists criticisms about punters and bookmakers alike yet don't put forward any ideas of your own for the future.
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people dont moan about not getting the £5 bet and bookmaker concessions,its the advertising of them which imply everybody gets them especially when you cannot even get the b part of bets with the big bookmakers that really gets to people
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Swaddle, I agree with your observation on the recent increase in SP overrounds. It would be interesting to see some up to date stats on this.
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to be fair you really dont need to see any stats to do with big bookmakers having control of the sp in the current climate,in the longer term they cannot ever be trusted to be fair,they showed their hand with opening shops to get more fobt's in the high street and claiming everyone was wrong when it was pointed out thats what they were doing,the maximum stake decrease showed who was right
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we have no data from the old sp system no more, the pr of the bookmakers have done a job in getting punters to agree the new sp system is better for them, as we have seen the upside is the bigger prices on the outsiders but how sustainable is that, we have fallen in the trap once the bookmakers have complete control of the new sp system and things get back to normal the squeeze on all prices will start and we will realize we have been fooled but it will be to late
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sparrow posted a thread earlier in the week an article regarding the prices of horses at the front of the betting ,it was very interesting and i am surprised the thread did not create more interest,
i also agree with gazo 1053 post and know alls last post. |
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jimnast........Here is that article again below.
Starting prices generated off-course for well-backed horses offer poorer value than SPs returned from on-course betting, according to HBF research Greg Wood in The Guardian Newspaper Industry starting prices generated from the off-course market while racing continues behind closed doors offer poorer value about fancied horses than SPs returned from the on-course betting ring, according to the latest study by the Horseracing Bettors Forum which compared SPs in 1,000 races in Britain last month against the same period in the previous three years. The starting price has been a cornerstone of betting on horse racing for more than two centuries, and until March this year, the SPs had always been derived from a sample of prices offered by on-course bookies at the instant the runners set off. When racing briefly moved behind closed doors in mid-March, however, the Starting Price Regulatory Commission – which is responsible for the accuracy and integrity of SPs – switched instead to a sample of off-course bookmakers’ prices, and that Industry SP (ISP) system was maintained when racing resumed post-lockdown on 1 June. The HBF has been monitoring SP returns since 1 June and has found that the overround-per-runner (OPR) for ISPs – that is, the overall profit margin on the book divided by the numbers of runners – has been highly competitive with its predecessor. In June, in fact, the OPR was just over 1.5%, well below the average for the month in the previous three years of just under 1.9%. The OPR has risen steadily since, though the October figure of just under 1.7pc was still slightly below the monthly average. It is the expected return on investment (ROI) for bets on favourites versus bets on outsiders, however, which appears to reveal a subtle shift in the value on offer to backers. The HBF analysis looked at the ROI for the first three in the betting in handicaps – which tend to have bigger fields – and the first two in the market in non-handicaps. In handicaps, it found that the ROI on SPs returned from the on-course market was -12% from 2017-19, but -14.8% since the introduction of Industry SPs. This was accompanied by a better ROI on the remaining horses in the race, up from -22.7% to -20.3%. In non-handicaps, the trend was similar, with ROI on the front two in the betting dropping from -9.2% to -11%, while the ROI on all other runners was -38.3% under the traditional system and 34.4% for the ISP. sparrow 20 Nov 20 10:45 An extra 2.8% on the amount that punters can expect to lose by backing market leaders at SP might not sound like a huge jump, but as HBF’s analysis points out, it can improve a bookie’s bottom line in a number of ways. In addition to boosting the gross margin on win bets, it will also improve the margin on multiples, most of which contain one or more favourites. The frequency and size of online payouts under “Best Odds Guaranteed” rules – where punters take a price and the SP is better – will also be reduced. “Our SP analysis shows that punters betting the first two or three in the market will now be worse off than when SPs were derived from on-course bookmakers,” Colin Hord, the chair of the HBF, said on Thursday. “However those punters that bet longer-priced horses, which win less frequently, will be finding some additional returns. We will continue to review the figures, especially now that we have additional data from National Hunt racing.” |
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thanks sparrow
its a worse situation than that article says,i picked a fair race not a bad ew race no extra places with hills 133 exeter 11 runners %127 book and when the shops are open they bet even tighter as the shop punters really do get it rammed up them. |
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uttox 228 1st 4 1/5th 14 runners %133
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Thanks sparrow.
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even more careful on the aw {understanable}325 wollybags 11 runners in at %130 thats the future with industry prices.
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Can any of the oncourse bookmakers tell me why there is no variation in the betting rings any more, why do none of them bet without the fav now unless their is a 1/5 fav. Punters want some variation not all the boards showing the same prices, how about any books showing place only prices on their boards. To get punters to go racing AGAIN you have got to offer some sort of variation not all win or e/w and showing the same prices.
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It looks like we could all be going back on course if the on course market grabs this opportunity punters will flood back if they are getting ripped off in the shops there is still a hard core who like cash me included, i remember the days of tax free on course and you went every time you could but do you think the on course will grab this chance ? not really
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clayfield1 - the lack of variation is down to the exchanges and the tight margins on course. Where we used to be 4/1 or 9/2 with 5/1 a place we are all now 11/2 the same horse. Punters on course better off than they've ever been but they moan we are all the bigger price mostly (there will always be some variations if you look but I accept not as much as there used to be). Regarding betting without the favourite, there simply is too little demand on course unless it is an uncompetitive heat. A few have tried it, all gave it up. Finally regarding place only show, that was investigated and we were told by the Gambling Commission that it was not allowed. Only win or ew prices allowed. We get a lot of stick for not changing with the times but the fact is there are a lot of innovative bookies on course but they are being held back by the stupid amounts of rules and regulations that we are forced to operate under.
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wasnot, Thanks for your reply.
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I know of at least one on course bookmaker who would lay place only and he posts on this forum too.
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sadly for on course bookmakers pretty much everybody has a mobile phone,people are using cash less and after we get back to normal that will get worse and then you get courses charging more to get in (which also means bookmakers expenses go up )and then charge massive mark ups on food and drink when you do get in,looks a long way back to me
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I see they're at it again at Kempton.
12.50 Kempton Full Result 1st Ajero (1) 10/11 2nd Captain Morgs (2) 5/6fav |
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didnt even get a mention on ruk did it
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That is mind numbingly pathetic.
10/11 the pair would be tight. |
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swaddle worse still change the result change the sp as at wetherby,the off course bookmakers are abusing the position they have been given due to no on course imput in the sp.
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Off course bookmakers obviously aren't to be trusted with SP returns. As jimnast has said they are already abusing their responsibility in setting the markets.
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good afternoon clayfield
wasnot has given you a very accurate answer,i would like to add and judging by your start date on here you will remember the racecourse 20 plus years ago when the vast majority of the crowd understood racing and punting,the crowd now do not understand betting without there was an article in the racing post a few years ago about the figures mark hill had on his board derby day ,the racing post expert journalist did an article knocking him for been 5/2 when everyone else was around 4/1 been 5/1 were everywhere else it was 6/1 plus if he was 8/1 everyone else was 10/1 plus and so on,mark wrote a letter to the post pointing out there expert had failed to notice he was betting without to be fair the post did at least print the letter. in ireland where the crowd is so much different many bet without some in fact bet without the front two all day everyday. wasnot pointed out restrictions on course bookmakers have to abide by i will give you an example at chester and bangor where chester bet put there joints wherever the want to they deduct %10 of the bookmakers sp thats after charging them fortunes to bet in the first place, when it was suggested that bookmakers advertised this was going on and the on course bookmaker would always pay more they were told it would be illegal and they must not try and do any honest advertising. |
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sparrow as long as the ruthless racing press dont ask any questions it will get worse lets face it ,its only 9 days since wetherby.
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300 muss 10 runners 1st 3 1/5th no tricky ew %126 hills just bend over sir.
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something you would never see from on course books even in new areas on prime days is 15/8 a horse that is 4.2 on here{ kempton 310}yet hills can lay that to an almost world wide audience.at least skybet are 2/1 .
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sparrow 1344 post loads will do it if asked.
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jimnast.....Surely the bookmakers on course could put up a sign saying "place only bets accepted here" ?
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Speaking of variation which included betting without the fav and place only betting I can remember watching my father clerking on the "aways" on course in the 1950s.
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they probably could sparrow not %100 sure that said the amount they have to display already is plenty.
the aways are not very popular anymore for the same reason as the betting without the crowd most of the time dont understand whats going on at the course they are at especially in the summer. |
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Too true jimnast, a very different world at the racecourse these days.
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