Flyingbolt v Arkle

Would probably have depended on the distance as to which was best. Arkle for me though.

Depending on which official was at the finish of the race, what odds a dead heat?

Flyingbolt would have run in the Gold Cup if he had been a good thing to be second or win if Arkle fell.  To me he was the classic case of a horse getting his best ratings from races in extreme conditions where the other horses either couldn't act / didn't stay in the conditions.  Remember what courses were like in those days before drainage work.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/hed-have-eaten-arkle-ted-walsh-reveals-the-g...

Surely you don't believe Walsh, Andrew?

He was also built to carry weight. This also makes performances on the figures look even better.

Yeah that it's Ted Walsh saying this is the clincher if one is needed.

What is "the clincher" ?

Pat Taffe was quoted in the Sean Magee book as saying ' Flyingbolt was a front runner , Arkle would sit in behind him and beat him for speed '.

Ted is a better talker than thinker imo. He also knew this would make a good headline otherwise it's likely many wouldn't read the article !

Sparrow, ref 11.42 no, i simply posted the link for all to read.

It's the same as Frankel v BG, we will never know and does it matter anyway, it's just opinions.

Not the same at all Andrew as Flyingbolt and Arkle were around at the same time.

Just about to post the same point sparrow.  If they had run against each other it would/could have mattered to your bank balance.

In Jan 1966, before Flyingbolt won the Thyestes, an officila handicapper's view wa that, over 3 miles, weights would be as follows...

Arkle 12-7
Flyingbolt 11-7
Mill House 10-7

Pat Taaffe had a similar view of their relative merits.

Flyingbolt then won the Thyestes by 25 lengths from Height O'Fashion, giving her 2 stone.

Just over a month later, Arkle beat Height O'Fashion a neck in the Leopardstown handicap, giving her 3 stone, suggesting there was no longer a stone between the 2 Dreaper horses.

However, Flyingbolt led all the way at a strong pace, and Arkle led at a steady pace, and Height O'Fashion was suited by a slow pace a she had a sprint finish. Dreaper also thought Arkle needed the race, as he hadn't run for 2 months.

interesting ged. Ratings just tell you mathematical performances. Timeform ratings have one or two ahead of Sea Pigeon that were around at the time ( I think Bird's Nest )  and others that were not. Doesn't tell you how race fit the horse was or even probably more important how fit what you were thrashing was.

The only time they were eneterd for the same handicap handicap chase was the Gallaher Gold Cup at Sandown in November 65.

The weights then were...

Arkle 12-7
Mill House 11-5
Flyingbolt 10-12

Arkle beat Mill House 24 lengths, and Flyingbolt didn't run. Flyingbolt was 6yo then, and obviously improving. The Thyestes in Jan 66 was his first run at 3 miles.

ged do you know which performance convinced Timeform to rate him within 2lb ?  I would guess a handicap over long distance on heavy.

I think the 2 lbs differnece is Timeform's reckoning. I wwas wrong in what I said above. They were also both eneterd in the '66 Irish Grand National. Flyingbolt was then rated 4 lb behind Arkle - the narrowing of the gap (by the Irish handicapper) presumably being down to his Thyestes run. He won that easily, which would have entitled him to a further rise, but that was that basically, he wasn't the same horse afterwards as he contracted brucellosis. I'd guess Timeform got their Arkle rating from the Gallaher, principally through Rondetto, as it was a truly run race and Rondetto was a solid horse with high class handicap form who was ridden to achieve the best possible placing.

Taaffe's view was that Arkle would have beaten him because Flyingbolt was a front-runner, and Arkle would have sat behind him and picked him off, just as he did with Mill House a few times.

Glad I didnt say that .....

sorry paulo, should have taken more notice.

Thats ok , I knew it was an oversight .

I think all this stuff that pat taaffe and jim dreaper came out with about arkle laying up off the bolt and then doing him for speed, well it needs taking with a pinch of salt.
Reminds me of the guff that came out when denman beat kauto.
Famously, paul nicholls admitted to crying his eyes out when the tank stuffed his favourite horse in the Gold Cup.
Arkle was obviously pat and jims favourite horse and to my eyes the reason arkle never faced fb was they were not sure the result would go the way they wanted.
From what I have read and from what father ted has come out with recently, well if  I had to have a bet given that the bolt would be getting first run there is no doubt who my money would be on.
And fwiw there used to be a forumite who took the name of flying bolt.
And he would have chewed up all the arkle fanboys on here and spat them out before breakfast.

Yes thelaptarps "from what you have read" you obviously know it all. I'm sure when you saw the Gold Cup in 1965 you were thinking if only Flyingbolt were running today.

You seem to have surmised, correctly, that I was born a good while after the aforementioned 1965 Gold Cup, sparra.

All I see is that two top class horses in the same yard never raced eachother.
The last time I recall two top class horses from the same yard met in a gold cup was kauto v denman.
I was astonished at the pile of b*llsh!t created in the racing media about how Kauto was the greatest horse since arkle.
To my mind it was a pick'em race. Even money each of two.
In such cases the horse that gets first run usually emerges victorious.
Happened in 08. I should imagine that Arkle v Bolty 65, Bolty gets first run, would be a similar outcome.
sorry..

Not the same at all Andrew as Flyingbolt and Arkle were around at the same time.

Sparrow

Yes i know that, but i meant in the context they never raced against each other

Andrew, my point is that we can directly compare Arkle and Flyingbolt as ged has demonstrated.

Flyingbolt won the Arkle,(then known as The Cotswold Chase) in 1965, and the QM in 1966 and came third in The Champion Hurdle the following day. He was obviously a horse with plenty of speed. I doubt that as a 6-y-o novice in 1965 he would have had the stamina to beat Arkle over 3m 2+f.

They didn't frame a separate handicap  for Flying Bolt did they

After the Champion Hurdle win Flyingbolt went back to Ireland and won the Irish Grand National over 3m 2f carrying 12st 7lbs. Pat Taafe said "In fact, I am sure there was at least a stone between them. Over two miles, of course, it would have been very much closer, but Arkle would still have won".

And Ruby said that kauto was like arkle and denman was mill house.
How'd that work out?
With Tommo asking Ruby if he had any regrets about choosing the wrong one.

Denman was very much like Mill House but Kauto Star was nothing like Arkle.

Yup , Arkle would not have hosed up in a Tingle Creek .......

It could just have been they were beating up rubbish , superior horses and training .

We had the great sight of Kauto Star and Denman battling in 4 Gold Cups.

Would they have ever raced against each other or just keep beating inferior horses carrying big weights .....I somehow doubt it.....

Just on the original post, Ted likes a bit of attention, he would have got none had he just said Arkle.

We have had this discussion before (probably several times) but it was a different game in the 60's. You simply couldn't find a small field conditions race every few weeks. Kauto Star ran in one limited handicap. Those sort of horses would have almost certainly been finished before they started if they had to carry big weights in handicaps on a regular basis.

Quite right different drum as winning the Gold Cups were nothing to Arkle compared to give away stones in weight to horses who were also top class.

Flyingbolt only had one great season didn't he? For me a NH horse needs to do it for longer.

Denman had one good year out of novice company when he beat Kauto.
then he got heart problems and was never the same again. Only won once more I think.
Boltys one good year might have been enough to topple arkle.

Andrew, my point is that we can directly compare Arkle and Flyingbolt as ged has demonstrated.

Sure i understand sparrow. I respect GED, one of the very knowledgeable guys on here, but ratings of any type are flawed as we all know. If we assume Arkle was better than Flyingbolt simply by virtue of a handicap rating, then surely we could do the same with Frankel and BG. As much as i am a massive fan of Frankel, it's simply an opinion, the numbers don't matter.

FWIW, i think Arkle was the better

Andrew, my point is that we can directly compare Arkle and Flyingbolt as ged has demonstrated.

Sure i understand sparrow. I respect GED, one of the very knowledgeable guys on here, but ratings of any type are flawed as we all know. If we assume Arkle was better than Flyingbolt simply by virtue of a handicap rating, then surely we could do the same with Frankel and BG. As much as i am a massive fan of Frankel, it's simply an opinion, the numbers don't matter.

FWIW, i think Arkle was the better

The Timeform rating of Arkle has always worried me. Did Timeform cover Jumps racing back then, or is it a rating Timeform pulled out of thin air some years after the action and, more importantly, influenced by the hype?

You also have the bias that Arkle off the track behaved like a saint , whereas Flyingbolt was just as likely to eat you . I saw Arkle race twice , probably my favourite memory , wished I had appreciated it at the time .

Ram, Arkle proved his rating many, many times in handicaps. They even introduced a new handicap system for when he ran and when he didn't. That is where you prove your rating by testing it on the racecourse. Nowadays top rated horses never see a handicap where their ratings can be tested. It is just smoke and mirrors today. If there were some really top class handicaps on a regular basis where ratings could be tested that would be good. It may even be an eye opener.

Well said Brigust1 , more handicaps of a highly competitive nature needed , what people forget is Arkle gave 3 stone to really good horses , few if any  of today's horses could give 2 stone to a really good handicapper.

thats why some of us loved Denman as he won two hennessy HANDICAPS and Desert Orchid who won many top handicaps whereas the
likes of Kauto never went near them.
also when you look back at the campaigns of the like of Arkle and Flyingbolt it makes you realise how tough those old chasers were

Such a shame I was too young to have seen the Arkle era having not really got into racing until 1980. I think NH racing has dramatically changed since the early 80's there are nowhere near as many top class chasers around each season. The emphasis is much more on speed than jumping used to.

I am a bit sceptical about the ratings and the best two rated ever by miles in stables next to each other at the same time tbh and unfortunately TV clips hardly do justice. Arkles Gold Cup races beating 4,4 and 5 runners a bit underwhelming.

Of the horses I have seen in the flesh Private Views was a superb jumper in the later 80's. Kauto Star was spectacular (but also made mistakes) and as an 11yo his jumping in the Betfair Chase and King George was perfection (assured and fast). Sprinter Sacre and Moscow Flyer (who also could make mistakes) were just awesome over two miles.

Storm Alert....You mention the Gold Cup wins of Arkle being underwhelming due to a lack of runners. That was because the other knew they stood no chance at level weights so try this one instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tamkrqCAegs

Great clip to watch , commentator only had a handful of horses to cover but was still dreadful , sounded like Norman Collier.

Cheers, sparrow. I didn't realise there were any decent clips of Arkle out their will look out for some more over the next few days. That was impressive, interesting to listen to the crowd cheering when the field went past the stands. Also interesting to listen to Peter O'Sullevan's commentary, he certainly trips over his words a few times and his voice had lost some of its power so I suspect a voice over when he was quite old.

One thing is CERTAIN.  If Flyingbolt had been trained in England Ted would not say such a thing.

Storm Alert - As I think Sparrow knows, that legendary video went missing for several years. I remember wishing I could see it and it not being available. It was produced one Saturday, on ITV I think, introduced by Alistair Down.  I cannot remember whether the added O'Sullevan commentary was on it when it was shown again but the commentary is definitely not contemporary with the race.  There are so many things to admire about this video/performance - taking three lengths out of Mill House in a twinkling AND then all the unfenced supporters leaping about after the last to mention just two. Those were the days.  Thanks Sparrow, good to see it again; made my day!!!

blackbarn...I forgot about the commentary being edited but nevertheless a great watch.

Storm Alert - the sound track over that film is a complete fabrication (the film, when it was unearthed around 2003, had no sound), and has been deduced from John Oaksey's piece about the race that he wrote in the Sunday Telegraph the day after the race. Peter O'Sullevan's commentary was put on about 40 years after the race, and his words about Arkle recognizing where he was were also taken from that Oaksey piece, which included the following paragraphs...

"Both horses (Arkle and Mill House) were clapped in the parade ring. Arkle was applauded walking down to canter to the start and - something I've never heard before on an English racecourse - a roar greeted the field as they passed the stands first time round!"

....

"But Arkle has been to Sandown before. He knows where the finish is and galloping around toward the Pond not bothering to count he decided it was time to go"

....

"'Weight will stop a train' said Tom Dreaper afterwards - but 16lb had not made an ounce of difference today and I do not really see how Arkle can ever be handicapped again."

...sorry, I wrote that before seeing the last couple of posts.

Still added value ged!!, as always

Here's another paragraph from the same piece...

"To describe his greatness fully, no words or comparisons are adequate, He is not just the best I ever saw, he is like something from another world"'.

This from a man who rode, and rode against, some of the best chasers of the late 1950s, and 1960s, and rode out for Bob Turnell when he had a few of them.

ged...your contributions are always welcome.

They Galloped together once both going a 1,000 miles an hour both wanted to be in front of the other.

I read it was the one and only time.

It is true it is hard to compare horses from different era's and in particular jumps racing. The fences today are so much easier to jump now and they therefore go much faster. Kauto Star was one I think would have struggled had the fences been the same as they were in the 60's and 70's and if he had to carry 12st 7lbs over them. Denman I think would have fared better but he had health problems so longevity would have been an issue. I am also not sure how other high class horses today would have carried 12st 7lbs on a regular basis and run over more testing fences. It is therefore difficult to know who would be the best but as it is jump racing my bet would be that Arkle would have fared better than many today.

Arkle passed the test of versatility, distance, left or right handed, graded or handicap races.

Denman was very one dimensional as a chaser, C1G1 and Handicap wins all 3m+ left handed at Newbury & Cheltenham (Puchestown once). His two Hennessey handicap wins and Cheltenham Gold Cup the standouts.

Kauto Star I found much more interesting, C1G1 wins 2m to 3m+ left and right handed at plenty of tracks. Never ran in full handicaps and only just got beat after a last fence mistake in a limited handicap giving the excellent Monets Garden 14lb 2m4f Aintree. A bit of an enigma jumped superbly most of the time but threw in the very occasional horlicks of a jump by taking off miles too soon. Ruby Walsh was the making of him.

My view is it old school jumping versus flatter faster jumping. Horses running in last 20 years would have struggled with pre 80's fences. But maybe old style jumpers would have struggled with the speed of current races. Certainly the case in the Grand National a completely different race since about 1990.

I am a bit sceptical about the ratings of horses over the last 12 to 15 years.I think they are inflated by 12 or 15 pounds in alot of cases.Just a opinion.

The days when Gold Cup horses would lug top weight around on bad ground in handicaps are well and truly over.
Its probably no accident that between Arkle and Best Mate only L'Escargot was able to win 2 gold cups.
And Hen Knight set up Matey for one race per year and that was the Gold Cup. And absolutely no handicaps.
The one time she ran Matey in a hcap was at Ascot. Where Matey ran into the triple threat of a johnson/pipe/mccoy horse in Wahiba Sands. Who ran off into the lead, as pipe's tended to do, in receipt of 20lbs.
Cant say I blame Hen after that!

Maybe its just the evolution of the sport that most of the top jumps horses shy away from handicaps.
But it just means that the original modern great jumps horse, Arkle, will be known as the greatest of all times. And that aint gonna change any time soon I should think.

Avoiding handicaps has nothing to do with evolution and everything to do with the fear of losing.

There wasn't the amount of easy condition races back in the 60s so the best horses had to run in the big handicaps for the valuable prizes.

I think its important to realise that the national hunt game does not have the history of the flat.
The cheltenham gold cup only took on any importance in the 30s with Golden Miller.
Most of the jumps program only took shape after ww2.
What Arkle did, lumping top weight in handicaps was all that was available in that era.

The game has evolved.
Different breeding practices (ie French breds, Best Mate was out of a french sire as was Kauto)
More meetings and races
Summer jump racing
Bigger horse population.

Hen Knight realised that top weight, bad ground and handicaps was not something she wanted for her top horses.
Paul Nicholls evidently concurred as do Mullins and hendo.

These people are the best around for a reason.
I imagine the hundreds of thousands they pick up every year in prize money is some comfort in the face of our derision in their failure to turn up for the Badblokes trophy or whatever the hennessy is called these days.

Yes that's all very well but fails to answer the obvious question as to whether Kauto Star and other recent stars would be able to concede lumps of weight to other good horses.

Maybe. maybe not. Depends on what type of form the form is exhibiting.
But then again they dont need to do they?
Perhaps one day the worm will turn and the top jumps horses will return to handicaps.

the horse is exhibitng. apols

Best Mate was Irish bred.

Today's trainers will generally just seek the easiest opportunities they can find and will continue to do so. To be fair to Nicholls he did have a couple of goes with Denham. Presumably, he felt that Kauto Star could never have done anything similar?

One of the biggest changes is the number of horses they train.

The likes of Dreaper, Winter and Turnell had a far higher percentage of quality horses than today's top trainers.

The same is true if you were to compare Vincent with Aidan O'Brien.

certainly a novel statement in calling Denman one dimensional after winning two hennessys
lumping 11-12 plus a gold cup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jI9YEDSbDg

Great documentary about Himself.

Interesting to hear Ted Walsh saying Arkle was invincible but then again perhaps he doesn`t know the meaning of the word if he indeed said later that Flyingbolt was the better of the two.

No horse in my lifetime has captured the sport like Arkle did and none ever will.

An interesting article from a few years' back, about great weight-carrying performances in handicap chases.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/nov/27/hennessy-gold-cup-claims-five

Chris Cook wonders whether the performances of Arkle under 12-7 are quite what they seem on paper, owing to the uncompetitive nature of steeplechasing in those days. That the bulk of the horses to whom he was giving 35 lb simply weren't very good or weren't fit.

The answer to that, of course, is Stalbridge Colonist. But it's an opinion worth thinking about all the same.

(Cook's verdict for number one, by the way, is Carvill's Hill's Welsh National - no question at all about the quality of the opposition there, and he didn't so much defy 11-12 as laugh at it, by 20 lengths; personally I'd put Desert Orchid's Irish National at number one, for the simply amazing fact the horse and the trainer even went for such a race with a horse who could give 22 lb to Panto prince over 2 miles.)

The greatest weight carrying performance in a Handicap Chase ever imo was by a horse that didn`t win.

I don't think it is any surprise that horses racing around the 70's look so good. Horseracing was at it's peak as a sport then whether it was chasers, hurdlers or on the flat. Since then it has fairly quickly become a business. A business dominated by bookmakers, number of horses in training and numbers of races at all levels. Trainers don't exercise their horses for anywhere near the time, not even half the time, they used to in the '70's. It is all down to numbers and money. Added to that the sport is under scrutiny by animal rights groups so jump racing is disappearing around the world and making changes to meet this challenge.
I don't think horseracing will ever get back to those heady days in and around the 70's. Look at the horse above. Won't happen again. 
There was a great article in the RP by Henry Candy with reference to the numbers of horses that cannot stand training.

I have posted this before , but about 20 years ago my riding horse (still alive ) was due to be shod , but his regular farrier was ill . He organised a replacement who happened to be Mill House's old farrier . Shoeing took a long time ...but he said Fulke Walwyn never got over his Gold Cup defeat , he thought it was impossible for another horse to beat Mill House on that day , let alone the way Arkle did . He also replated Arkle one day at Newbury and said he had the best feet he had ever seen .

Ted Walsh says that Flyingbolt was the superior of Arkle. Arkle is widely acknowledge as the finest chaser of all time, they changed the handicap system because of his greatness.
What I find quite strange is at the same time, two horses from the same stable were housed together.
The two best chasers of all time , trained by the same man, at the same time.
What are the odds on that!

Interesting piece by Chris Cook, whose writing I like, but both he and his stablemate Greg Wood have always been prejudiced against Arkle (or at least, his reputation). Greg believes Arkle and Flyingbolt couldn't possibly have been as good as they were rated simply becaus they were trained in the same small (by today's standards) stable.

Arkle was the only horse in that '66 Hennessy who hadn't had a run that season, and he had cut himself schooling 2 weeks before the race, so if any horse in the race was less than 100% fit, it was him. What A Myth (2nd fav) who was close up in 3rd, had won at Huntingdon a few weeks earlier - he and Stalbridge ran almost to the pound against each other later that season in a chase at Sandown, so to suggest that either lacked fitness that day is a bit off, imo. Stalbridge had 3 races in France over the summer - Arkle hadn't raced for 8 months.

I too have to agree that Crisp's performance in 73 must be the greatest ever weight carrying performance.

Arkle , Mill House , Denman , Desert Orchid and others gave massive amounts of weight away but......they did not give 23 pounds to a horse who was at his absolute peak at Aintree , a horse who the following year gave weight and a beating to a dual Gold Cup winner.... and Crisp was so far out of his comfort zone running over 36 furlongs rather than 16.

Gull1 I suppose it is the same odds as Nichols having Kauto Star and Denman in the same yard at the same time and almost the same ability. Chris Cook always said it was before his time anyway. Horses have been racing for donkeys years and, being flee animals, they knew how to be fit.

sixtwosix.....You mention Mill House giving massive amounts of weight away yet Arkle gave 16lbs away to Mill House himself in the video I have posted. Crisp was not giving away lumps of weight to Gold Cup horses in the National despite  that brilliant performance.

Similar to Walsh I think today's writers are essentially attention seekers, Far less worthy of quote than the likes of Lord Oaksey.

Thanks, ged, for explaining so comprehensively why the 1966 Hennessy, and the narrow defeat by Stalbridge Colonist, disproves the notion that there was anything second-rate or unfit about the horses to whom Arkle was giving 35 lb.

I just threw Chris Cook's article out there because it's an idea worth debating.

Interesting point about Arkle having such fine feet too. I only know the horse from pictures, but he's one of the very few thoroughbreds I can always recognize without reference to the riders colours or anything else. Everything about him tells you this is the greatest ever - the regal bearing and the sheer physical presence of the horse.

The few photos of Flyingbolt, on the other hand, show a big flashy blaze and a couple of white socks - the sort of markings you'd expect on a horse with his apparent bad temper.

So, on that basis, it's always going to be Arkle first and Flyingbolt never better than second for me. Regardless of the form book.

When Stalbridge Colonist beat Arkle narrowly at Newbury in the Hennessey Gold Cup in receipt of 35lb Stan Mellor plotted that he would stay directly behind Arkle until after the last then outsprint Arkle on the run in.

Flyingbolt wouldn't have got the trip on a horse box at Gold Cup pace against Arkle. 90% of his racing career was over shorter trips.bHe tackle 3m four times losing twice at Kempton and Ascot

Impossible question but there are form lines that suggest Flyingbolt achieved more on the odd occasion but Arkle was dominant many times over, shame they lived next door to each other.

And dont forget in that Hennessy , What a Myth was third carrying 10st 2lbs vs Arkle's 12st 7 lbs and after a spell hunting he came back to win a Gold Cup (that will never be forgotten either as 100-6 winner as a student was gold dust ) .

I haven't read all the above but I was probably more enthusiastic about racing then than I have ever been. I had established a rather unexpected interest in racing because I happened to be off school,sort of ill,at the age of 12 when there was nothing to watch on TV in the afternoons except racing. Mill House happened to win the Gold Cup and I was hooked.
Originally I was a Mill House fan and was distressed when Arkle beat him in the Gold Cup in 64. It was already clear these two were miles ahead of of all the other staying chasers. Mill House ran in the Whitbread later that season and was beaten by the very useful Dormant to whom he was trying to give 3st. I don't think he was quite the same horse again.
Arkle however just kept getting better for another 2 seasons. In 1965-6 he was probably at his peak. So was the younger Flyingbolt and I have always been aware that there is a line through Height of Fashion that suggests he was at least as good as Arkle but I think there were reasons why that wasn't quite reliable.
Two things though make Arkle the greatest for me anyway. One is that he kept his form for 3 and a half seasons after his novice campaign,Flyingbolt for only one. The other is simply that Arkle,like Kauto Star,had an undefinable star quality which Flying bolt lacked.
Flyingbolt seems to have been largely forgotten though except amongst the elderly afficionados. For me he was the 2nd best of all time but you have to forget all his runs after 1965-6 as he caught brucellosis and was sensationally beaten by Gort and Tibidabo in a conditions race in late 1966. He was off the track then for a while and when he came back for various trainers,he was a shadow of what he had been. It was all rather sad as opposed to Arkle gallantly finishing 2nd in the King George on three legs and going out at the top.

Just wondering why this has resurfaced.