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Interesting view in the Post today , as someone not old enough to recall see them run.
Suggestion that Flyingbolt was superior to his stablemate .
As a racing nut , I have always heard that no horse was ever as good as Arkle....
Suggestion that Flyingbolt was superior to his stablemate .
As a racing nut , I have always heard that no horse was ever as good as Arkle....
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Would probably have depended on the distance as to which was best. Arkle for me though.
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Depending on which official was at the finish of the race, what odds a dead heat?
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Flyingbolt would have run in the Gold Cup if he had been a good thing to be second or win if Arkle fell. To me he was the classic case of a horse getting his best ratings from races in extreme conditions where the other horses either couldn't act / didn't stay in the conditions. Remember what courses were like in those days before drainage work.
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https://www.racingpost.com/news/hed-have-eaten-arkle-ted-walsh-reveals-the-greatest-horse-he-ever-saw/459045
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Surely you don't believe Walsh, Andrew?
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He was also built to carry weight. This also makes performances on the figures look even better.
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Yeah that it's Ted Walsh saying this is the clincher if one is needed.
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What is "the clincher" ?
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Pat Taffe was quoted in the Sean Magee book as saying ' Flyingbolt was a front runner , Arkle would sit in behind him and beat him for speed '.
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Ted is a better talker than thinker imo. He also knew this would make a good headline otherwise it's likely many wouldn't read the article !
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Sparrow, ref 11.42 no, i simply posted the link for all to read.
It's the same as Frankel v BG, we will never know and does it matter anyway, it's just opinions. |
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Not the same at all Andrew as Flyingbolt and Arkle were around at the same time.
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Just about to post the same point sparrow. If they had run against each other it would/could have mattered to your bank balance.
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In Jan 1966, before Flyingbolt won the Thyestes, an officila handicapper's view wa that, over 3 miles, weights would be as follows...
Arkle 12-7 Flyingbolt 11-7 Mill House 10-7 Pat Taaffe had a similar view of their relative merits. Flyingbolt then won the Thyestes by 25 lengths from Height O'Fashion, giving her 2 stone. Just over a month later, Arkle beat Height O'Fashion a neck in the Leopardstown handicap, giving her 3 stone, suggesting there was no longer a stone between the 2 Dreaper horses. However, Flyingbolt led all the way at a strong pace, and Arkle led at a steady pace, and Height O'Fashion was suited by a slow pace a she had a sprint finish. Dreaper also thought Arkle needed the race, as he hadn't run for 2 months. |
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interesting ged. Ratings just tell you mathematical performances. Timeform ratings have one or two ahead of Sea Pigeon that were around at the time ( I think Bird's Nest ) and others that were not. Doesn't tell you how race fit the horse was or even probably more important how fit what you were thrashing was.
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The only time they were eneterd for the same handicap handicap chase was the Gallaher Gold Cup at Sandown in November 65.
The weights then were... Arkle 12-7 Mill House 11-5 Flyingbolt 10-12 Arkle beat Mill House 24 lengths, and Flyingbolt didn't run. Flyingbolt was 6yo then, and obviously improving. The Thyestes in Jan 66 was his first run at 3 miles. |
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ged do you know which performance convinced Timeform to rate him within 2lb ? I would guess a handicap over long distance on heavy.
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I think the 2 lbs differnece is Timeform's reckoning. I wwas wrong in what I said above. They were also both eneterd in the '66 Irish Grand National. Flyingbolt was then rated 4 lb behind Arkle - the narrowing of the gap (by the Irish handicapper) presumably being down to his Thyestes run. He won that easily, which would have entitled him to a further rise, but that was that basically, he wasn't the same horse afterwards as he contracted brucellosis. I'd guess Timeform got their Arkle rating from the Gallaher, principally through Rondetto, as it was a truly run race and Rondetto was a solid horse with high class handicap form who was ridden to achieve the best possible placing.
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Taaffe's view was that Arkle would have beaten him because Flyingbolt was a front-runner, and Arkle would have sat behind him and picked him off, just as he did with Mill House a few times.
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Glad I didnt say that .....
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sorry paulo, should have taken more notice.
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Thats ok , I knew it was an oversight .
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I think all this stuff that pat taaffe and jim dreaper came out with about arkle laying up off the bolt and then doing him for speed, well it needs taking with a pinch of salt.
Reminds me of the guff that came out when denman beat kauto. Famously, paul nicholls admitted to crying his eyes out when the tank stuffed his favourite horse in the Gold Cup. Arkle was obviously pat and jims favourite horse and to my eyes the reason arkle never faced fb was they were not sure the result would go the way they wanted. From what I have read and from what father ted has come out with recently, well if I had to have a bet given that the bolt would be getting first run there is no doubt who my money would be on. And fwiw there used to be a forumite who took the name of flying bolt. And he would have chewed up all the arkle fanboys on here and spat them out before breakfast. |
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Yes thelaptarps "from what you have read" you obviously know it all. I'm sure when you saw the Gold Cup in 1965 you were thinking if only Flyingbolt were running today.
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You seem to have surmised, correctly, that I was born a good while after the aforementioned 1965 Gold Cup, sparra.
All I see is that two top class horses in the same yard never raced eachother. The last time I recall two top class horses from the same yard met in a gold cup was kauto v denman. I was astonished at the pile of b*llsh!t created in the racing media about how Kauto was the greatest horse since arkle. To my mind it was a pick'em race. Even money each of two. In such cases the horse that gets first run usually emerges victorious. Happened in 08. I should imagine that Arkle v Bolty 65, Bolty gets first run, would be a similar outcome. sorry.. |
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Not the same at all Andrew as Flyingbolt and Arkle were around at the same time.
Sparrow Yes i know that, but i meant in the context they never raced against each other |
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Andrew, my point is that we can directly compare Arkle and Flyingbolt as ged has demonstrated.
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Flyingbolt won the Arkle,(then known as The Cotswold Chase) in 1965, and the QM in 1966 and came third in The Champion Hurdle the following day. He was obviously a horse with plenty of speed. I doubt that as a 6-y-o novice in 1965 he would have had the stamina to beat Arkle over 3m 2+f.
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They didn't frame a separate handicap for Flying Bolt did they
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After the Champion Hurdle win Flyingbolt went back to Ireland and won the Irish Grand National over 3m 2f carrying 12st 7lbs. Pat Taafe said "In fact, I am sure there was at least a stone between them. Over two miles, of course, it would have been very much closer, but Arkle would still have won".
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And Ruby said that kauto was like arkle and denman was mill house.
How'd that work out? With Tommo asking Ruby if he had any regrets about choosing the wrong one.  |
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Denman was very much like Mill House but Kauto Star was nothing like Arkle.
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Yup , Arkle would not have hosed up in a Tingle Creek .......
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It could just have been they were beating up rubbish , superior horses and training .
We had the great sight of Kauto Star and Denman battling in 4 Gold Cups. Would they have ever raced against each other or just keep beating inferior horses carrying big weights .....I somehow doubt it..... |
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Just on the original post, Ted likes a bit of attention, he would have got none had he just said Arkle.
We have had this discussion before (probably several times) but it was a different game in the 60's. You simply couldn't find a small field conditions race every few weeks. Kauto Star ran in one limited handicap. Those sort of horses would have almost certainly been finished before they started if they had to carry big weights in handicaps on a regular basis. |
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Quite right different drum as winning the Gold Cups were nothing to Arkle compared to give away stones in weight to horses who were also top class.
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Flyingbolt only had one great season didn't he? For me a NH horse needs to do it for longer.
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Denman had one good year out of novice company when he beat Kauto.
then he got heart problems and was never the same again. Only won once more I think. Boltys one good year might have been enough to topple arkle. |
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Andrew, my point is that we can directly compare Arkle and Flyingbolt as ged has demonstrated.
Sure i understand sparrow. I respect GED, one of the very knowledgeable guys on here, but ratings of any type are flawed as we all know. If we assume Arkle was better than Flyingbolt simply by virtue of a handicap rating, then surely we could do the same with Frankel and BG. As much as i am a massive fan of Frankel, it's simply an opinion, the numbers don't matter. FWIW, i think Arkle was the better  |