Doncaster St Leger Crowd

don't worry we are officially becoming a police state on monday...total suppression of all civil liberties

I agree isleham. Just reading the rules, it looks like sports crowds are exempt from the "rule of 6".  What happens though, if a group wants to organise a peaceful protest against the government and all this Covid nonsense?  Surely we haven't reached the point whereby demonstrations are now illegal?  If that is the case, then we are heading towards a very sinister future.

Having read isleham's post,Nicola has announced that we'll become a police state from Friday then!

I’m for these trials going ahead.Not like this,Doncaster should hang their heads in shame but if it goes wrong ( Any covid spread) thats it for a year.

Tuesday’s late news about tightening coronavirus restrictions came just in time to sour the return of racegoers to a British racecourse. Up to 3,640 ticket-buyers are allowed in the ‘general admission’ areas at Doncaster on Wednesday, rising to more than 6,000 for the next three days, which should be a moment for hope that this is a firm step towards normality and the worst is past.

Instead, racing fans must wonder if there is any hope left for the mooted return of crowds at sporting venues from 1 October. “That’s the date the government announced but they haven’t confirmed it at all in the last couple of weeks,” David Armstrong of the Racecourse Association said on RacingTV’s Luck On Sunday at the weekend.

“It needs further confirmation. However racecourses are now getting ready for 1 October, meeting with local authorities, producing operating plans and risk assessments.”

All that planning will be for naught unless sports crowds are exempt from the emergency action announced last night, which bans virtually all gatherings of more than six people in England. More details are expected on Wednesday, when Boris Johnson holds a Downing Street press conference.

The new limit is to come into effect on Monday, after the four-day St Leger festival has finished, so in theory this first multi-day pilot for the return of crowds should go ahead as planned. Bearing in mind the late cancellation of the Glorious Goodwood pilot last month, however, nothing can be taken for granted until people are actually passing through the gates.

“Nobody needs to tell us how important this is,” said Mark Spincer, a managing director of the company that owns Doncaster, on Tuesday. “For the industry and sport as a whole, the leisure sector and the hospitality industry need us to get this right.”

Sounds an horrendous way to spend the day, better than sitting in a bookies I suppose.

Sep 9, 2020 -- 12:17AM, isleham wrote:

don't worry we are officially becoming a police state on monday...total suppression of all civil liberties

yep...fascism but without the jackboots & the goose stepping

we need mass non-compliance & it needs to start now

It's very frustrating but I don't think it changes too much at the minute. It's not that often more than 6 people meet together and pretty unenforceable in your own home (separate rooms and all that). It's a continuation of the narrative to appease the doom and gloom merchants.Every year the NHS has a winter bed crisis and they produce a plan to address it. This year it will be misrepresented  by the media and politicians. Unless the public wise up this will continue, you will be able to work and spend money but have a restricted life. Obviously the politician and the wealthy just carry on regardless.

Donnie with spectators pilot goes ahead...

The only way to stop this nonsense if for everyone to refuse to get tested.

Spot on Wasnot! It is beyond belief that there are people actually trying to find ways to GET tested!

screaming...you are so right. Too many of the public are enjoying the 'drama' of the Covid times. Far too many.

But the very same people who are so unhappy about their little darling kids going back to school, are equally up in arms cos' their plans to take them abroad for a summer holiday were disrupted. Double standards and muddled thinking.

In the end, we are now in a terrible mess over this. It surely is not practical for the government to keep imposing restrictions here, there and everywhere. So what to do? Let the virus rip or impose really strict lockdowns which may well still will not see the end of it?

All along I have been tempted to say let the virus rip and take the consequences, but doing that does run a risk of overwhelming the NHS to the point it implodes - regardless of what others on here want to believe.

It is a terribly difficult choice but what the government cannot do is mess around and get caught between a rock and a hard place. Make their mind up to do one or the other and stick with it before they drive us all mad!

AND - ban the scare-mongering media from reporting this now. The BBC lead the pack here - most of what they report is either banal or hysterical. No balance, no sense, and no idea of the ill feeling building up towards them from the more sensible members of society.

Yes we must become law breakers. No more compliance. The government are setting the example so why shouldn't we follow?

The Knight - I have to agree with you and Screaming. The country seems to have divided itself into those who are aggressively "don't care and what are you going to do about it?" and those that have embraced the restrictions required by Covid and strut around with permanent face masks and clipboards and jump away from you if you get withing 1.5 metres of them.
They are sucking the joy out of life and want to turn us into a nation of hermits who only communicate with people they know.
Virtually all the media, and not just the BBC, have not come out of this whole pandemic very well. Let's face it, it has been fantastic copy for them from the word go and they have loved spreading panic throughout the nation and then having hindsight when things go wrong. They have also made stars out of scientists, who have been pretty clueless because no-one really knew what to do.
Add in the British public who have traditionally been very poor at doing what they are told for any length of time.....

but doing that does run a risk of overwhelming the NHS to the point it implodes --- that will never happen Knight and they know that and th eNHS is not worried about it no matter what you hear publicly. At the peak of the outbreak in March 10's of thousands of beds were empty. The NHS has moved on and are very focused on catching up on work that was delayed and the so called 2nd peak (fiction) will have much, much less impact (if any at all) than the up and coming flu season. The government has made up its mind and all that we are getting is a narrative to keep scaremongering going.

next...orange jumpsuits, shackles, permanent muzzles and concentration camps for those who don't comply...

Let's put horse racing in perspective. It's only a sport, and involves a tiny minority of the population. As such, postpone the admittance of crowd until present situation eg the increasing imposition of lockdown within England is on the downhill trajectory to avoid controversy and accusation of bias from certain quarters.

Or put in another perspective it provides jobs and security for many families. I don't care how small the population is in racing that doesn't mean they should be treated unfairly.  Do we really need to build roads, make double glazing, build bathrooms and kitchens? I can see why you would want to protect racing's image but the very thing you think we should wait for (lock down on a downward trajectory) requires sports and other public events to take place. If there is no pressure on government they will just take the path of least resistance.

One can also say this has come about thro' the arrogance and selfishness of those responsible eg illegal social gatherings; the government are merely acting on their advisors and data collected. However, I do agree horse racing takes place in an open area thus less susceptible to spreading Covid nevertheless, the possibility is still there; other sports and some sector of the public could use horse racing to plea a case for their sport or event eg football and social gatherings at wedding/funeral, religious services.

No one size fits all...we need to al work for the same goal ie to eliminate or at least contain this virus from causing mayhem to the week and elderly seen in March to July.

you have your wish impossible what a sad fu..er you must be

Been saying it for months now, but this is all far more sinister than what most people believe.

Yes I couldn't argue with that. I suppose I am coming from the point of  view that this virus' danger is massively over rated and the danger to people, even the vulnerable is minimal. I think the effect o f the restrictions, lock down etc on peoples health and financial well being far out weighs the damage the virus can do.

back behind closed doors at least the ****s like impossible will be happy,what a mess we are in desperate trouble as a country.

It's sad. I think people will regret this before too long. It's just completely unsustainable.

Pathetic. Ed seems to be enjoying it though....of course!

just myself and my wife will now have to cancel 3 nights in a hotel, ticket refund from newmarket,3 nights using bars and restaurants plus petrol and coffee,tea and snacks,how on earth can this country carry on like this,nobody can plan anything at all for the foreseable future.

Well, that lasted long....a one day trial.

I'm sorry to hear that Jimnast. It would be nice if racing stood up and criticised the government heavily for this. My guess is they will just roll over not give 2 hoots about the people that pay their wages. Sorry again Jimnast, hope you get to see some racing soon.

cheers truehoncho all is not lost doncaster decision i believe is local council but thats south yorkshire for you.

Not surprising.  Racing is still hated by the media and social media numpties because of Cheltenham. No evidence ever that is was a cause and Liverpool and Rangers hosted German and Spanish teams the same week.
The Beeb were surprise surprise attacking this all morning.

Not an issue .....but don't keep telling the population we are heading back to normality, and good luck with the office push after yet again having double standards.

We cannot hide from a virus with no end date.
There may never be a vaccine.

Blinkered one dimensional approach.
we are heading back to last March , and as this method has failed over 6 months .....why on earth are we going to do the same again ?

COVID hysteria is going to kill race courses

Poor prize money will permanently close more race courses than any virus...

I don't think we will 626. I think this is all part of the propergander exercise to keep the narrative going. There is no way they will stop people going back to work as they can't afford a further hit to the economy. This distracts from all the other politics and as I said earlier people will be hurting from this sooner than later. Evidence means nothing and it's all just media hype and social media manipulation.

Poor prize money will permanently close more race courses than any virus... Plain  --- I think that is a chicken and egg thing.

Would have been good to bump into you - socially distanced of course - at the Cambs meeting jimnast but that seems highly unlikely. One step forward and four steps back! Negative news emerging today on one particular vaccine test is very depressing.

lets see what boris has to say today democrat i have not given up yet on newmarket as far as i know the area is pretty low on numbers with covid, hancock enjoys a day at his local track surely they cant carry on like this with sport when the pubs are open and blm protesters can do as they please.

"On the grounds of public health and public safety I have instructed the course to hold the St Leger Festival behind closed doors from tomorrow," said Dr Rupert Suckling, director of Public Health for Doncaster

It could have been done ages ago feel sorry for those who have booked hotels and the like

its the same for those who book holidays in good faith know all its a total c..k up.

Who's in charge , the Government or the Doncaster Health director.? Doesn't one outrank the other ? .?

Sep 9, 2020 -- 1:18PM, JetLoneStar wrote:

Been saying it for months now, but this is all far more sinister than what most people believe.

correct

The Council probably had it planned all along. Get people committed to booking hotels etc and then

pull the rug out. Doubt the hotels will refund. This country is run by a bunch of useless pr*tts at

all levels of Government. Sooner or later, as has been alluded to on here, the great British Public

will have to defy the regulations .If not we set a precedent, namely that in times the Government

decides it's necessary all human rights and freedoms can be removed by law.

Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I always thought rights and freedoms were unalienable.

100% spot on rog

"Rights aren't rights if they can be taken away. They're privileges."

Sad scenes...

I echo six’s comments above.

it looks like doncaster council bottled it, social media criticism and even the bbc news live reporter outside saying its very controversial going ahead, lets see what bumble boris comes up with this aft

the council are stupid when you consider the economic impact.

We can't  keep shutting our economy and businesses down over some virus

(1) Lockdowns delay #HerdImmunity
(2) Lockdowns cause indirect death
(3) Lockdowns do not end #COVID
(4) Lockdowns destroy businesses
(5) Lockdowns increase suicides
(6) Lockdowns increase fear

Why didn't we follow what Sweden have been doing from the start?  They seem to be coping very well with no significant restrictions.  History tells us that viruses eventually burn themselves out. All these interventions are doing is making the whole crisis last a lot longer than it should.  If we had allowed everything to get back to normal (after ensuring the NHS could cope) this may well have been all over by now.  If a vaccine doesn't arrive (even WHO says there is no guarantee that there will be an effective one), we are going to look pretty stupid. We will then be up sh*t creek without a paddle.

unbelievable that this allowed to continue can you tell me any particular nite spots that are extremely busy so i might avoid them

No room for common sense in this hysteria driven political environment Ian!

Should had lock down from day one
like Vietnam  did
they chose to prevent it  rather then fight it

38 deaths

Vietnam eh? yeah we should be like them.

By having all these lockdown we are cureing absolutely nothing but merely delaying and pushing the problems further down the road..everyone knew positive cases would spike with everything re-opening but as usual all the scientists panic and try to shutdown the country again and who the hell is the head of public health Doncaster just some jumped up jobsworth secure in his overpaid bubble

who the hell is the head of public health Doncaster just some jumped up jobsworth secure in his overpaid bubble

this was exactly my point on the other thread

what mandate exactly does this guy & the organisation he works for have to dictate to people what they can & can't do?

So any local government can now overrule the actual government and shut things down. Feel sorry for those who booked hotels as you can guarantee they won't be getting refunds

I'm for racing to go ahead with a limited number of racegoers as I believe horse racing could be the most appropriate sport to demonstrate to the government and their health advisors that it is one of the safest (maybe the safest) sport to do so given its nature. But, the increase in lockdown imposed and Doncaster Council not supporting it it's inevitable back to behind closed doors only; the profound silence of the BHA only cemented its fate.

Listening to the news right now, sounds like we have effectively given up on Xmas.  Whitty telling us that plans for schools may have to be revised after Boris recently saying that schools are an absolute priority.  Who is in charge of this country, Boris or Whitty?!  "Rule of 6"....stick it up your jacksy!

exactly!!

how can you give up on xmas ?

profound silence of the BHA only cemented its fate  ---.I agree Impossible. Why aren't they exploring alternatives. Newbury ahd a pub in the paddock a little while ago. There must be some way to get small crowds back?

I agree @truehoncho, but Whitty is calling the shots right now and he clearly doesn't want it to happen.

I have a slightly different opinion. I think he is a yes and its a bit of a game they are playing Ian.

Should have said he is a 'yes man'

it is interesting this thread. One would have to accept that, disproportionately, gamblers are probably more risk averse than the average member of society. But , unless I have this wrong, the majority on this thread are, as I am, extremely sceptical about the present method of extricating ourselves from this mess. Even accepting our "bias", it is staggering that views that object to the present regime are so thin on the ground in the MSM. I wonder if the sceptics are going to grow in numbers and volume. Let's be honest, if this is what we are faced with on September 14th, we are going to be in the same position in spring. Surely......SURELY....it will become apparent that we cannot continue like this?  My guess is that, as furlough £ recedes, more people will rebel. God knows we have to. I live on my tod. 64yo. I have weathered the first 6 months on the basis that we may be back to a form of normality by now. The thought of spending November - March in that dark with FA to do save watch telly is......Don't know what to do to be honest. They are totally and utterly wrong. Innumerate. Risk -averse. Callus. Scared. But, sadly, in charge ( and I have voted Tory my whole life). No hope now.

People won't rebel. Governments everywhere will just keep printing. The only rebellion would be if the rules were eased and the money were stopped. So they won't be.

I fear you are right SMB. Although, eventually, there is no more £ to borrow, and further printing leads to Weimar Republic inflation. Most of the populations of all the western world do not understand that £ is limited without consequences. As my old economics master told me, inflation is "too much £ chasing too few goods". We will be there in spring. Leaving aside the health and well being (on a wider basis)of the nation(s).

You only have to look at the way the government's polling figures are holding up. They're not going to do anything to risk that.

For most people this is living the dream. Nothing to do, getting paid for it, and being told you're therefore a hero.

Doncaster racecourse now has the contact details of 2,500 members of the public who attended an outdoor event.

If they ensured none had Covid19 symptoms when they entered the course today, why not get in touch with them in 2 weeks' time to check they are still clear?

Surely this would show that racing is trying to help the situation.

After all the whole country was informed, on National news, that this crowd trial took place today.

I wonder if the 'rule of 6' applies to illegal migrants crossing the Channel in an inflatable. Nope, sorry, eight of you in that boat, can't help you.

Go straight back to France, do not pass Go, do not collect £200 in benefits, do not stay in my hotel on Park Lane. Pick a Chance card and try again next week.

Surely this would show that racing is trying to help the situation. --  I'm not sure why racing should be bothered. What a sad state of affairs.

2.500 contact details expect plenty of junk mail from thommo,

You're right truehoncho - what is the point of bothering, after today's decision by Doncaster Council.

Nobody allowed into the course today had Covid19 how could they spread it?

Sep 9, 2020 -- 8:52PM, 1st time poster wrote:

2.500 contact details expect plenty of junk mail from thommo,

FFS Hopefully no FODO

I wouldn't bother going anyway, the things going on is disgusting and sad for society

I can remember going to Donny and being able to buy a burger with change, buy a drink with change, have a drink and watch the horses from the rail as they ran past

What a sad facking world we've had forced on us

Have a bet with actual money

truehoncho...You may be right about the NHS not being overwhelmed but it would be an extremely chancy thing to put to the test and no government would do that. I can see you have a very rigid view over this but my 60 years on this plant have taught me that life is almost never black and white, but generally shades of grey.

But, in the end, as far as racing goes, it does not matter about the NHS and its ability to cope.

That's because around 60% of racecourse attendances are under 2000, and around 40% less than 1000. Hence, if the RCA would stand up to DCMS a bit and make a case for small trials as a forerunner to crowds of less than 1k to start, a lot of us would feel things were moving in the right direction.

But, they seem to have been holding the view that big trials were best. Let's see if the change to pilot numbers alters the thinking.

BTW, I was at Donny today on my Southwell badge. The track did well and I was surprised at how much room we had in members. Even had a paddock side spot, although a few yards further back than normal. If racing had to be like it was today for a while, I would not be too unhappy although it was not ideal and the atmosphere was zero - worsened by the news about the rest of the week.

I think Knight has hit it on thehead. Surely we should have started with a few hundred at Cartmel of Fontwell.rather than famous big meetings with thousands of spectators. After two weeks of smaller attendances at smaller tracks, no offence to them I prefer them, we could show it is possible. Grand gestures is just putting all your eggs in a very overexposed basket.  Now it has failed and has put the sport back months.

they probally want big trials because they want big crowds,they dont really care too much if those small meetings are run behind closed doors,its the cheltenham's they really want to get crowds back too

i agree .... some small meetings... learn how to manage them and by their mistakes and legt us get back to normal..makes sense to me

i agree .... some small meetings... learn how to manage them and by their mistakes and legt us get back to normal..makes sense to me

brians: You do realize the average attendance at Cartmel is nearly twenty thousand?

yes brains, i agree  of course it should be let them into the smaller race meetings, most midweek race meetings only have a few thousand in ( bar the big meetings) even newmarket is quite sparse on some race days.

They've had 5000 crowds back in France since 11th July, the last couple of weeks, Deauville has been busy, some wearing masks, some not. The Tour De France, on the hill climbs, have been busy and congested. The French PM has attended and said he's not concerned and the show goes on. They have now announce 11500 crowds to be allowed in the next few weeks. What has our own Emperor Nero done? Announced "the rule of 6". What a plank!

And last night's 4pm fiasco? Various graphs charting "cases" to support their ridiculous views. Where were the graphs charting deaths...or hospital admissions....or people on ventilators.....or people testing positive who have no symptoms and were genuinely surprised at their positive result?

well said dodger

truehoncho...You may be right about the NHS not being overwhelmed but it would be an extremely chancy thing to put to the test and no government would do that. I can see you have a very rigid view over this. --  Hi Knight. These are not my views. They are the views of Sir Simon Stevens head of the NHS. He has written to all providers in the NHS (Hospitals, GPs etc to get on with the day to day work. There are no grand plans by the NHS for a second wave but obviously they contingency plans for a 'surge' as he called it. Hi letter and the end of April was pointing out there were 10's of thousands of unused beds and his letter at in July was urging them to get back to normal pointing out that even in the peak of the crisis for every covid patient they treated 2 other patients (that within the restrictions they were under). These are not my 'rigid views' these are publicly known facts. The government justifies most of these restrictions by saying they are 'protecting' the NHS. Its just not true.

When a local council health official can close anything down, any event you have no chance, he bowed to pressure from higher up the council, the bbc news report was live outside doncaster lunchtime news , it was big news doncaster council bottled it, who is going to risk hundreds of thousands of pounds again when its like this, its got to be a few hundred to start with, doncaster races to blame they saw a chance for a killing and paid the price

I've just discovered an interesting fact about the 2017/2018 winter flu epidemic from official ONS statistics. Apparently there were 50,000 excess deaths (no doubt largely attributable to flu) for England and Wales.  Make that around 55,000 if you factor in Scotland and Northern Ireland.  Suddenly the current Covid crisis doesn't sound as bad as suggested by the severity of the various lock down restrictions.  Isn't it strange that this comparison doesn't get mentioned in the media.

Absolutely Ian. I wish everyone looked at the stats. In fact the 2018/19 flu epidemic was roundly criticised for being under reported.

The thoughts of Lord Sumption, the former supreme court judge, on the legality of the current situation and the powers given to the police.

From 15.30 on this link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3tUjps3KQo&feature=youtu.be

truehoncho, although you are trying hard to make a valid case for this all being an over-reaction, you do seem to be forgetting one issue. The empty hospital beds were almost certainly because of lockdown.

If I take your argument to a logical conclusion, it seems you think the infection rate would have dropped by itself WITHOUT a lockdown?

Take a look at the figures and graphs - if you don't believe even them we are wasting our time discussing this - and you will be able to work out that had COVID been allowed to progress in the manner the modelling suggested it would, we would have run out of critical care beds very, very quickly. And then normal beds, and then space in the street for those needing a hospital to queue up in!

Now, it may be that you think the modelling was incorrect but what else could the authorities do? Take a gamble that it would all work out OK, or try to change the predicted course of the figures with a lockdown?

I am not disputing for one minute that now, especially with a rising number of infections again, it is going to be hellish to get back to normal because of jobsworths and overkill but I fail to see how you can ignore the data?

And please do not quote Sweden to me. Unlike most on here, I have studied the virus figures at great length. Sweden's density of population is vastly different than ours and it can never be a like for like comparison.

To end, do not get me wrong. I hate all of this. From going racing 4 or 5 times week since 2013 to nothing for six months has been terrible for me, but, with some reluctance, I have to admit most of the measures taken by various governments were necessary.

One final thing, as well. Forgive me if it wasn't you, but remarks like 'the vulnerable should take care of themselves' are extremely immature and nasty. Covid is not the only thing society has to look after each other over and it is unavoidable that you will be old - and possibly vulnerable - one day yourself.

Influenza is not as infectious as Covid is proving to be and we do have a vaccine that generally helps, note helps and not stops, people contracting it.

Once we have a similar Covid vaccine, we will treat it like influenza is treated now.

Lastly, why do so many on here think this is some kind of giant conspiracy theory? It is selfishness because your lives have been disrupted, or do you like thinking everyone in authority is out to get you?!!

cos it was made in a lab.

truehoncho, although you are trying hard to make a valid case for this all being an over-reaction, you do seem to be forgetting one issue. The empty hospital beds were almost certainly because of lockdown.  No the empty hospital beds were due to cancelled procedures.
If I take your argument to a logical conclusion, it seems you think the infection rate would have dropped by itself WITHOUT a lockdown? Yes why wouldn't it? it does for flu.
Now, it may be that you think the modelling was incorrect but what else could the authorities do? - I didn't criticise the first few weeks but after that the hospitals were empty so they should have eased it.
And please do not quote Sweden to me why not? it has very similar demographics to Scotland (same urban concentrations around 84%) and virtually identical death rates without lockdown.
Influenza is not as infectious as Covid - How on earth does anyone now. I don't remember testing for Flu through any season.
Take a look at the figures and graphs  --  Take a look at the flu graphs The peaks were high and dropped quicker. This is clearly as a result of no interference.   
I fail to see how you can ignore the data no need to ignore the data it's how you translate it. Carl heneghan has his views which you could look up.
why do so many on here think this is some kind of giant conspiracy theory? --I don't think its a conspiracy theory just bad decision making by the goverment.

@ The Knight.  I am not convinced at all that the infection rate dropped because of lock down, it maybe helped a little.  Just look at the ONS graphs for death numbers, the numbers were already coming down before the lock down if you take account of the time allowed for measures to kick in and time between catching the virus and dying.

If covid is more infectious than influenza, why are 6 times as many people currently being recorded as dying with flu/pneumonia than covid?

And if lockdown, masks and the rest of it have any effect, why are 30 people per day currently dying with flu/pneumonia, exactly as they do every other year?

Yes Screaming and by week 44 (end of October) we will begin the flu season proper. Deaths will start to rise and for the first time ever we will be counting flu deaths. I have no idea how it will pan out but it will be interesting. If 1500 a day are dying at the turn of the new year it will open a few eyes.

@truehoncho.  I agree, we seem to be moving towards trying to save every single life on the planet if we continue to follow the current Covid strategy.  Every country apart from Sweden has got themselves into a right mess.  Once we started televising daily death figures, most people became very scared and uncomfortable and fear took over.  Right now, it's very difficult for world leaders to suddenly back track and start taking a relaxed view to this, i.e to let nature take its toll.  It would be admitting that they made bad policy in the first place.  Something else that may happen during winter...I wouldn't be surprised if they count every flu death as Covid, any method they can find to justify their measures.

Well Ian, I posted that very post back in April. The world has gone mad and lost all sense of perspective. They are driven by useless/corrupt (take your pick it doesn't matter which) politicians and a lazy media. Along with social media being orchestrated by big corporations we have created a perfect storm. No wonder the conspiracy theorists are having a whale of a time.

Catalans v Wigan, teatime today, a crowd of 5000 expected and I believe some Wigan supporters have tickets. Meanwhile back in the wide open, covid free spaces of Doncaster we have 3 men and a dog. Well done Rupert whatever your name is for protecting the population of South Yorkshire you plank.