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The Prophet
16 Aug 20 19:46
Joined:
Date Joined: 08 Dec 02
| Topic/replies: 568 | Blogger: The Prophet's blog
Hi guys...can anybody kindly help with setting the right return for following bet.

I had a £5 reverse forecast with Sweet Reward and Elegant Love on the 6:10 at Newbury. I had the winner and the second dead heated. The CSF was £18.44 on my forecast.

What should my returns be?

Many thanks
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Report penzance August 16, 2020 7:56 PM BST
£5 total stake =£46.10
£10 total stake =£92.20
Report The Prophet August 16, 2020 8:03 PM BST
I had £5 reverse f/c ...so total stake stake £10. I believe it should have returned £92.20 but they have returned £46.10 saying that because of the dead heat I get half my stake.

So do toy believe them to be wrong penzance?

Thanks for your help.
Report The Prophet August 16, 2020 8:10 PM BST
Can anyone please confirm?
Report dave1357 August 16, 2020 8:11 PM BST
looks to me that the dh is already in the calculation, so you should get 92.20
Report Hayden August 16, 2020 8:16 PM BST
Correct mate should be £92.20

What's confused them is they've forgotten the f/c dividend has already factored in the dead heat by issuing two dividends so in effect they've penalised you twice.

They should know just roughly multiplying the prices then halving it would return just under £100 but they haven't thought it through.


Good luck
Report penzance August 16, 2020 8:21 PM BST
looks to me like those return divs
have already been halved,looking at he
SPs.Not100% sure but thunk you should
get the new divs to your stake.
   GL
Report dave1357 August 16, 2020 8:21 PM BST
i just worked out the csf using https://www.flatstats.co.uk/betting/csf-formula

and it is 36.88 so half that is exactly 18.44
Report dave1357 August 16, 2020 8:30 PM BST
If this is online you should make an official complaint to a manager and ask it is possible such a blunder was made.
Report dave1357 August 16, 2020 8:31 PM BST
*how it is possible
Report The Prophet August 16, 2020 8:44 PM BST
Having had a chat online with a very helpful member of staff, I'm afraid that they are insisting that the return is £46.10, half my winning stake because of betfair's dead heat rules.

I'm certain that this is incorrect but what can i do?

I have asked them to review it, which they said they will. They said that they will email me in due course.

Thank you so much for your replies. It gave me the confidence to go back and query it again.

I will post what they say when I get the email.
Report saxon farm August 16, 2020 9:12 PM BST
Surely there should be 2 separate dividends here?
Report saxon farm August 16, 2020 9:15 PM BST
Dead Heats - If two or more runners dead-heat for first or second place in a forecast, or including third place in a tricast, then separate dividends will be paid out.  If you took a fixed price you will be paid at full odds but your stake will be divided between the number of selections in the dead heat.

This taken from online betting.org.uk
Report penzance August 16, 2020 9:16 PM BST
there is £18.44 & £42.26
Report Baz_Man August 16, 2020 9:25 PM BST
As an ex settler and manager of an on line operation your payout should be 5 x 18.44 no argument
Report saxon farm August 16, 2020 9:31 PM BST
Then as Baz says undoubtedly £92-20 is the correct return.
Report dave1357 August 16, 2020 9:56 PM BST
prophet - insist that they forward your complaint to a manager.  Say that this mistake is such a gross error in bet settling it casts doubt on their fitness to hold a ukgc licence.
Report peckerdunne August 16, 2020 9:57 PM BST
bizarre error
Report dave1357 August 16, 2020 9:58 PM BST
What is the firm btw?
Report The Prophet August 16, 2020 10:15 PM BST
It's with Betfair dave.
Report carrot1960 August 16, 2020 10:18 PM BST
The  CSF divided declared is £18-44 so the returns should be £92-20 , But why are Betfair paying a CSF  return when they don't take the bet ?
Report dave1357 August 16, 2020 10:39 PM BST
betfair? - that is utterly shocking.  The largest online betting company, flutter group, doesn't have competent bet settlers.
Report carrot1960 August 16, 2020 11:01 PM BST
Betfair don't have settlers anymore it's all done automatically by computer , and they don't take CSF bets in the first place
Report dave1357 August 16, 2020 11:10 PM BST
well if their settling system is coded incorrectly that means they have been ripping off people for years.
Report sparrow August 17, 2020 8:48 AM BST
That is shocking considering they were given the chance to look at the bet again and still don't understand how to settle the bet properly.
Report layemall August 17, 2020 10:15 AM BST
Correction Carrot they do, I didn't realise they do but if you are in Sportsbook, horseracing, and click on a price.....then in "betslip" there is a forecast & tricast tab and below says "2nd required"(is that a new feature?). It doesn't then say potential returns when a stake is added, so assume they use the CSF dividend and not their own dividend. What an absolute joke that even when challenged they don't accept that they have settled the bet wrongly.....makes you wonder how many others have been underpaid when there has been a dead heat for 1st or 2nd place for these type of bets?!
Report San Quentin August 17, 2020 10:33 AM BST
What a plonker carrot1960. Displaying all that is wrong with certain humans, convinced they are correct even when wrong. Read the T/C, before arrogantly posting please.
Report dave1357 August 17, 2020 11:37 AM BST
layemall, it is quite a complex calc and based on the starting prices of all the horses in the race, so they can't display the "potential" returns.
Report layemall August 17, 2020 12:03 PM BST
Hi Dave....yes, a rough guideline is the price of the winner multiplied by the basic factor of the 2nd(add 1 to the 2nd's price)...i.e a 3/1 beats a 5/2 shot, then the CSF pays roughly 3 X 3.5 = £10.50. I added that bit in my previous post as wasn't sure whether Carrot was correct on a technicality. i.e Betfair calculate/give their own dividends for forecasts and therefore don't do/offer the official CSF.
Report elisjohn August 17, 2020 12:15 PM BST
betfred settlers not knowing their own rule 4 rules
paddy power  not knowing their own rules regarding late horse withdrawn  rules (on here few weeks back)
betfair not knowing c/f rules
bookmakers in general not knowing ante post rules

CryCryCryCry
Report brians August 17, 2020 12:21 PM BST
The Racing Post and Attheraces results sites show separate dividends for each placed horse , so the dh has been taken into account in the published £18.44 they both quote. Therefore you should have  5 times that . Your other £5 is lost because the straight forecast no. 5 to beat the winner is lost.
Returns £92.20.
Report dave1357 August 17, 2020 12:27 PM BST
^^^ yes layemall, the rough calc of 1st sp times sp of second plus one (8x5), should have made it obvious to any of betfair's staff involved in this debacle that they were wrong.
Report mmmalushka August 17, 2020 1:27 PM BST
Surely should be 5 x 18.44 for Sweet Reward/ Elegant love
plus 5x 18.44 for Elegant Love/Sweet Reward.      £184.40 would be about right for those prices.
Report sparrow August 17, 2020 1:31 PM BST
Another problem is that you're not talking to the person who settled the bet on their chat service but simply someone who passes and receives messages.
Report mmmalushka August 17, 2020 1:32 PM BST
OOps misread that as 1st and 2cd dheat,£92.20  is the return.
Report mmmalushka August 17, 2020 1:32 PM BST
OOps misread that as 1st and 2cd dheat,£92.20  is the return.
Report dave1357 August 17, 2020 1:33 PM BST
mmmalushka - the dh was second not first
Report dave1357 August 17, 2020 1:33 PM BST
just in time Grin
Report carrot1960 August 17, 2020 6:29 PM BST
San Quenton there in no straight CSF on here  betfair offer there own fixed price  F/C or they offer a  tote  exacta
Report carrot1960 August 17, 2020 6:34 PM BST
22.16Forecast Betting
A "straight forecast" is a bet where you name two selections to come 1st and 2nd in the correct order for a specified event.
A "reversed forecast" is when you name two selections to finish 1st and 2nd in any order for a specific event.
A "combination forecast" is when you choose three or more selections in an event, with any of these to finish 1st and 2nd in the race.
Straight, reversed and combination forecasts are available on horse races provided 3 or more entries run in any one race.
Forecast bets are settled in accordance with the industry Forecast Dividend, except where stated below:
If a Straight Forecast is accepted for a race where no dividend declared, the bet will be settled as a win single on the first selection stated.
If you select a Non-Runner in a Forecast bet, the bet will be void. If you select a Non-Runner in a Combination Forecast, all bets featuring the non-runner will be void.
Customers are not allowed to include 'unnamed favourite' in forecast bets.
Report carrot1960 August 17, 2020 6:38 PM BST
" San Quentin" if you can see any reference to a CSF bet anywhere  in betfairs terms your welcome to point it out
Report saxon farm August 17, 2020 6:54 PM BST
22.16Forecast Betting
A "straight forecast" is a bet where you name two selections to come 1st and 2nd in the correct order for a specified event.
A "reversed forecast" is when you name two selections to finish 1st and 2nd in any order for a specific event.
A "combination forecast" is when you choose three or more selections in an event, with any of these to finish 1st and 2nd in the race.
Straight, reversed and combination forecasts are available on horse races provided 3 or more entries run in any one race.
Forecast bets are settled in accordance with the industry Forecast Dividend, except where stated below:
If a Straight Forecast is accepted for a race where no dividend declared, the bet will be settled as a win single on the first selection stated.
If you select a Non-Runner in a Forecast bet, the bet will be void. If you select a Non-Runner in a Combination Forecast, all bets featuring the non-runner will be void.
Customers are not allowed to include 'unnamed favourite' in forecast bets.
Report saxon farm August 17, 2020 6:56 PM BST
Paragraph 5
Forecast bets are settled in accordance with the industry Forecast Dividend, except where stated below:
Report saxon farm August 17, 2020 6:56 PM BST
Paragraph 5
Forecast bets are settled in accordance with the industry Forecast Dividend, except where stated below:
Report exactaman August 17, 2020 6:58 PM BST
I've always been paid out as per the CSF ( Industry Straight Forecast ) on Sportsbook...
Report The Prophet August 17, 2020 7:00 PM BST
Just to let you guys know that they have voided the last return of £46.60 and have now paid out the full £92.20.

I'm really not sure what you're are talking about carrot as I have been doing forecasts for years on betfair, and they always pay out using the CSF....just like this bet.

It's amazing that, even when you know you're right...when they tell you you are wrong...it starts to make you doubt yourself.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. As I said earlier, it gave me the confidence to go back again and not just accept it.
Report sparrow August 17, 2020 7:03 PM BST
Common sense has at last prevailed prophet and well done but you can't help thinking how many other people have been underpaid on this and other similar bets.
Report dave1357 August 17, 2020 7:11 PM BST
tnks for the update
Report saxon farm August 17, 2020 7:17 PM BST
Pleased you got there in the end The Prophet!
Report saxon farm August 17, 2020 7:25 PM BST
But shame on the bf moderators for deleting carrots “humble apology for adding to the confusion” post.
Report carrot1960 August 17, 2020 9:00 PM BST
Why would i be apologizing , there is nothing in the terms that cover's a CSF  bet  , neither  is there or have i ever seen an option on sportsbook to place a CSF  bet
Report carrot1960 August 18, 2020 2:31 PM BST
Come on Saxon how about a screenshot of the CSF  option on here
Report dave1357 August 18, 2020 2:41 PM BST
what are you waffling about.  The bet slip says straight forecast/reversed forecast.  The bet made by OP returned exactly the CSF.
Report saxon farm August 18, 2020 3:50 PM BST
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0CPkf8ESQWPO1NpMz7k0lZRxw
Report San Quentin August 18, 2020 4:15 PM BST
carrot please leave the building you are making a complete fool of yourself or are you just plain stupid. How people like you sleep at night I really do not know. Please apologise to all saxon in the main and hang your head in shame.
Report saxon farm August 19, 2020 9:14 AM BST
San Quentin, he seems to have scuttled off
Report saxon farm August 19, 2020 9:16 AM BST
As Del Boy might have called him “a 42 carrot plonker”.
Report San Quentin August 19, 2020 3:38 PM BST
Report saxon farm August 19, 2020 8:29 PM BST
Come on carrot1960, any thoughts?
Report saxon farm August 19, 2020 8:40 PM BST
carrot, I have blundered on these pages before. I have had egg on my face and eaten humble pie.
BUT I NEVER LIVED ON DENIAL.
I wish you well carrot1960.
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