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elisjohn
05 Jul 20 20:49
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Date Joined: 15 Jun 03
| Topic/replies: 17,068 | Blogger: elisjohn's blog
if they can win group1s in their first year its simply the horses nothing to do with training them, gods are vincent, henry and fabre .
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Report brigust1 July 13, 2020 11:39 AM BST
That is your opinion Honcho and I totally respect that. But if you think the horses today are better, where are they? That is exactly my point. The only possible place where the breeding and the training of future champions is likely to be is Coolmore/Ballydoyle. You cannot have it both ways.
Report truehoncho July 13, 2020 11:50 AM BST
Hang on a second, what are you talking about. I said I don't think the horses in the past are as good as today. Where are they? well they are all around you but you don't like them so you say they are not as good. You are putting your opinion up as evidence, its not its just opinion like mine. Every horse you mentioned is just your opinion, it isn't mine. Further, I have never said that Coolmore have the best horses but they are the best operation. In an earlier post you said it was Coolmores money that made it for them. You must be kidding, you don't think oil wells may give you a few quid to compete with? You don't think all the money those big Newmarket trainers have between them shouldn't get them a little more success? I think your stance against Coolmore (right or wrong) is clouding your vision about their competition. And for what it is worth I don't think they have the best stallions at the moment and  am not as big a fan of Galileo as many are. I just think they manage him and his stock superbly.
Report brigust1 July 13, 2020 1:18 PM BST
Good luck with that.
Report elisjohn July 15, 2020 1:49 PM BST
obriens have 8 of the 12 declared for irish oaks,SadSadSad
Report cacique July 15, 2020 10:39 PM BST
I think honcho and brigust are probably on the same side, just looking at it from a different angle.


Ballydoyle don't maximize the potential of the really good horses.... would they have run Frankel in the derby along with 4 others?
They weren't too clever with So You Think who the aussies thought was second coming..


Coolmore do exceptionally well with a sire who if he were with Darley would almost certainly be on the scrap heap.
Report G Hall July 16, 2020 7:59 AM BST
Here we go again, the Nijinsky stakes at Leopardstown this evening, 5/7 runners belong to Aidan or Joseph, and if I'm not mistaken 6/7 belong to coolmore, Ravens Pass being the exception. This is my biggest gripe with the way they are dominating / spoiling racing imo.
Report G Hall July 16, 2020 8:00 AM BST
** 6/7 sires belong to coolmore**
Report elisjohn July 16, 2020 8:12 AM BST
Cry,
Report truehoncho July 16, 2020 9:10 AM BST
I agree that it would be better if there was more competition in the races (that is better for any sport). My argument is thats not AOB's fault you have to look at the opposition. A vast amount of the industry (especially in Ireland) is about selling horses on to rich Arabs or Hong Kong the minute they show any potential and they go abroad to race. They are not interested in keeping them to race. As people point out on here all the time, The cost/benefit of owning horses is woeful in the UK and Ireland.
Report brigust1 July 16, 2020 10:31 AM BST
I just think they are crooks. Remember Churchill's 2000 Guineas and Capri's Irish Derby? Can a leopard change its spots? And they are probably only the ones that were obvious.

Just watch English King in the Epsom Derby he is completely boxed in by the Ballydoyle horses until it was too late. Was that error or by design? You decide. I already have. 

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Report brigust1 July 16, 2020 10:34 AM BST
In fact Vatican City knocked Pyle Driver out of the way so that he could get alongside English King.
Report truehoncho July 16, 2020 10:42 AM BST
Frankie could have done a lot better on EK in my opinion. When they came up the hill there was room for him to go to the front when they tacked over, but he decided to track Mogul. He got himself boxed in.
You have your views on AOB and I won't be changing them. The reason they are at the top (in part) is because of the woeful competition. I mean that in the wider sense. Crooked agents buying crap horses for big trainers to make money and trainers going back to the same well year after year. Owners being ripped off and soon chucking it in. These are some of the key reasons why the competition to Coolmore is underwhelming.
Report brigust1 July 16, 2020 11:06 AM BST
That was job done for Ballydoyle from the moment that had the danger boxed in and they had the clear leader. And, as you suggest, they knew racing from the start was the last thing Frankie wanted to do. If he had tried to undertake Moore he could easily have stayed in front of him. This isn't a team game you know.
To blame Frankie is blindness personified. Frankie had to believe Moore would be trying to win the race.

You really think you don't understand my point, Honcho.

The 'woeful' competition, as you call it, are the leftovers after Coolmore have finished.

My view is that the 'total' horse racing population should be shared around more top-class trainers so that they could be trained for and aimed at the targets their trainers deemed most suitable for them.

That is not what is happening with the cream of the racehorse population. And, you would not believe this but, there are some people who are quite happy and contented about that situation. You really would not believe it.
Report brigust1 July 16, 2020 11:07 AM BST
**I really think
Report truehoncho July 16, 2020 11:55 AM BST
I do understand your point Bigrust, I just don't agree with it. As I have said one of the biggest reasons Coolmore have made it to the top and been so dominant is due to (in part) the ineptitude and questionable practices of others. What I think would happen if you shared the horse population amongst others is that they would just sell on for a quick profit and to hell with tomorrow. Coolmore are long term. I wouldn't defend everything they do and I certainly won't be on the other thread about jockey tactics, but on the whole I think they deserve to be where they are and they are far more professional and honest than many in this game.  I can see your frustrations I just think they are a little misplaced and you may think about the rest of them.
Report brigust1 July 16, 2020 12:19 PM BST
Sorry Honcho this has been going on for years. How do you think the trainer of English King feels. He is trying to do it properly and by the book and he gets ganged up on by the crooks. You cannot condone that?
Do you really think the Balldoyle horses go out en mass just to ride their own races?
Do you really think O'Brien doesn't look at his group and think how best to win the big races?
Do you really think when a jockey has a chance to box in the main danger to him making or getting a cut of some sizeable payout he will just sit on his hands?

That is what you are saying. Do you really think that?
Report truehoncho July 16, 2020 12:26 PM BST
I don't think they are cheaters and that's what you are implying. A horse doesn't have to move to make way for another one and if you get yourself inside one then bad luck. I don't believe that their jockeys are anymore 'sporting' than others. I have seen plenty of incidents where jockeys interfere with other horses and I think on the whole (as far as I can see) they give their horses their best chance. As far as the trainer of EK is concerned, maybe he should have left the established jockey on him. He didn't seem to be conned by the pace.
Report brigust1 July 16, 2020 12:41 PM BST
I am sorry Honcho but the evidence is absolutely overwhelming and it is not going to decrease any time soon.
Your idea that it is the householder who is at fault because they get burgled is for the fairies.

You probably do think Ryan Moore sat where he did because he didn't know Serpentine was going to make the running. And you think Vatican City's jockey moved into his position and kept English King boxed in behind Ryan Moores mount accidentally. 

I have to rest my case Honcho but thanks for making it a reasonable and respectful debate.
Report truehoncho July 16, 2020 12:44 PM BST
My pleasure brigust.
Report impossible123 July 16, 2020 3:40 PM BST
What did the trainer of Siskin call the O'Brien battalion in the Irish 2000G? Dettori on Stradivarius was deliberately and repeatedly boxed in? Marquand deliberately and strategically edged left to disallow Threat (Murphy) to come in to be behind Moore (Wichita) in the SJP; the prinicpal opponents of Saxon Warrior (SW) in the 2000G were kept out/wide to allow SW a clear passage om the rail to the finishing line.

Of course it's evidently clear AOB/Coolmore are applying riding tactics to frustrate, negate or deny their principal opponents of winning a big race. And, I've no doubt whatsoever.
Report knoxville July 16, 2020 3:47 PM BST
wow
imagine using tactics to win a horse race...
this thread is fooking ridiculously stupid
Report impossible123 July 16, 2020 4:12 PM BST
Let me rephrase. AOB will use "unsporting" riding tactics eg repeatedly/strategically/deliberately to box in his (principal) opponents to win races and to minimise his opponents from wining.
Report truehoncho July 16, 2020 5:46 PM BST
Well that's your opinion Impossible. I reckon there may well be tactics but I don't really see them as unsporting. I'm sure they are not going to give way to a key opponent but I find it hard to believe they would plan such an action. I think Frankie got himself in a bad position in the Derby and they were not going to help him were they? With millions of pounds riding on such races you can't expect any favours.
Report impossible123 July 16, 2020 6:03 PM BST
Not the Derby, but on Stradivarius in the Gold Cup. The most recent were their battalion against Siskin; Marquand on Royal Dornoch on Threat in the SJP.
Report FELTFAIR July 16, 2020 7:36 PM BST
A few stats for the last few years when Ballydoyle haven`t won the Derby. The list names the horse and the number of Ballydoyle runners

Authorized - 8
New approach - 5
Sea The Stars - 6
Workforce - 3
Pour Moi - 4
Golden Horn - 3
Harzand - 7
Masar - 5

In my opinion in every instance the best horse on the day won and I saw no evidence of tactical riding to try and deny any of these winners. Willie Carson said the best horse wins the Derby because they have the speed, balance and stamina to win in spite of what is going on around them. I cannot accept that Frankie Dettori was denied a winning chance because of tactics, he is a world class jockey and over a mile and half he would have ample opportunities to put English King into a position to possibly win. Aiden o` Brien immediately after the Derby said all of his horses are there to try and win the race and not to spoil the chances of others and I believe him.
Report Try My Best July 16, 2020 7:45 PM BST
I agree with Feltfair. If the opposition are good enough they will win.
Report impossible123 July 16, 2020 8:57 PM BST
I think it's because Moore is a handicap thus AOB deploying a battalion each time trying to win.
Report brigust1 July 16, 2020 9:18 PM BST
Nice list Felt. I will just go through it with you.

Authorized is by Montjeu owned by Tabor
New Approach Irish
Sea the Stars  Irish
Workforce miles best and he only had 3 runners, can't do a lot with only three.
Pour Moi owned by Coolmore
Golden Horn miles best and only three runners again
Harzand Irish
Masar no Ballydoyle frontrunners because their fav, Saxon Warrior, was a doubtful stayer.

He won't cr ap on his own doorstep. Hence Irish runners.

Hope this helps Felt?
Report G Hall July 16, 2020 9:56 PM BST
Feltfair

Nice list, but I have to disagree that dettori is a world class jockey, a good jockey yes, but not world class imo.
Report kevo July 16, 2020 9:59 PM BST
knoxville Joined: 22 Nov 10
Replies: 152816 Jul 20 15:47 
wow
imagine using tactics to win a horse race...
this thread is fooking ridiculously stupid


And some of the tactical Coolmore conspiracy threads are pure fantasy.
Report Try My Best July 16, 2020 11:15 PM BST
That's rather tenuous brigust.
Report Fire-and-Ice July 16, 2020 11:42 PM BST
Name another trainer who has, in the past, been accused of using team tactics (lets get this straight, this is NOT ALLOWED).
Report brigust1 July 16, 2020 11:55 PM BST
Tenuous? Good planning (cheating) I call it. You cannot cheat in every race. Circumstances arrive only sometimes. I think the positioning of Vatican City from stall 8 was deliberate to keep the main danger in a box. It may have been coincidental but I don't think so he made strenuous efforts to get there and that is where he stayed until the home straight when the race for Frankie was lost. 

What do you think his boss told him? If Ryan gets out in front of English King move over and make life difficult for Frankie. Don't tell me he doesn't look at the draw and where his horses are positioned and have some sort of plan in mind. After all he would have known the winner was going to make the running all he needed to do was stop the opposition. He probably gambled on the Guineas winner not staying so the race was then his for the taking.
As big outsiders he wouldn't have given the 2nd and third a chance, the fav didn't stay all he needed to do was stop English King. He had the next three horses home.
Worked like a charm.
Report Try My Best July 17, 2020 12:26 AM BST
English King simply not good enough. No complaints by connections. Simples. When Sea the Stars won the Irish Champion Stakes O'Brien had 6 out of 9 of the runners. What happened, best horse won.
Report Fire-and-Ice July 17, 2020 12:53 AM BST
So in between Sea The Stars and English King there has been zero shenanigans?
Report Try My Best July 17, 2020 12:57 AM BST
Could give you lots of examples. If the opposition is good enough they will succeed. No big conspiracy going on at all. If you think English King is the best horse that ran in the Derby I would seriously question that.
Report doantwin2easy July 17, 2020 1:19 AM BST
brigust1 - if you think that the nationality of an opposing trainer or breeding operation, plays any part in the supposed tactics employed or not employed by a multi-million pound training and breeding operation, on the biggest stage of all, that concerns me.

If anything, the opposite would be true - in that you'd be more competitive against your own. But I think that some of you are tilting at windmills.
Report elisjohn July 17, 2020 4:37 AM BST
dont think brigust mentions nationality, i detest what coolmore do, but its nothing to do with nationality, sad you have to bring this up
Report impossible123 July 17, 2020 8:06 AM BST
Do horse know their nationality? American ones are fabulous despite President Trump in UAE. I still believe running a battalion is to "manage" the professional inadequacy of Moore.

One does not run 6 in a 9 runner race esp from the same syndicate for the good of the sport. I can understand if different owners. Only a blind person does not think AOB running a multiple number of runners to maximise his chance of winning, but minimise others.

As always each to their own.
Report brigust1 July 17, 2020 8:47 AM BST
Considering your username Try My Best I thought you would understand Irish racing a bit more. That is AOB's love he is passionate about improving Irish racing and supporting Irish races. He is not going to stitch up any Irish trainers any time soon.

We will have to wait and see about English King but I never backed him in the Derby so I have no allegiance in that direction. Anf the trainer isn't going to complain in public for goodness sake.

In the Derby Beggy, on Vatican City, was drawn in 8 but to ensure English King was boxed in he had to get rid of Pyle Driver who was alongside Mogul ridden by Moore. While Pyle Driver was there English King may have an opportunity to extract himself so Beggy muscled Pyle Driver out of the way and sat alongside Mogul until the reached the home straight.
You may call it luck but I think it was planned. Everyone says how well AOB plans everything and discusses tactics with his jockeys but as soon as someone brings their tactics into question then the usual suspects start crying. 'Oh don't, please don't, not Aiden'. 

He is a team player but in horse racing and in my eyes that is a cheat. But you have to have the right circumstances to pull off these actions. I am only pointing out one, of many, instances where these actions worked a treat. I am absolutely certain these plans fall apart many, many more times as soon as the stalls open but this was as plain as the nose on your face.
What Beggy did is what jockeys do every day the only difference is he wasn't doing to give himself a chance of winning he did it to ensure a stable companion won that is why it is cheating.
Report truehoncho July 17, 2020 9:36 AM BST
Well we all have different opinions on this. One thing is for sure, if Ireland carries on this nonsense of not letting owners at the track for much longer they will have even less competition.
Report brigust1 July 17, 2020 10:07 AM BST
Anyone who has read Vincent's autobiographies or Horsetrader among other things will know of VOB's hatred of the British from birth. It is well documented and Ballydoyle was built on that hatred. AOB trained Istabraq for JP who has in extensive business dealings with Magnier who married VOB's daughter and they all come from the same region in Ireland so it was a natural transition for AOB to train at Ballydoyle.
Report truehoncho July 17, 2020 10:25 AM BST
We are a little down the rabbit hole here Brigust. Rather than looking for historic motivations I think the explanations are firmly in the present. An industry that encourages owners to move on horses abroad for profit which results in very little competition for Coolmore. If they didn't run the numbers they do in the big races you would end up with 90 rated horses in the Derby. They keep the quality up and have every right to stand their ground in races and make it tough for the competition. I still say for all the criticism of AOB he carries Irish racing and without him/them it would be very poor fodder.
Report brigust1 July 17, 2020 10:39 AM BST
I do not doubt for one minute the benefits Irish racing has gained from Ballydoyle/Coolmore financially but morally is a completely different situation.

I think for racing as a whole they are bad news. They are bad for punters and they use tactics that are reprehensible. They are probably terrible for small breeders but I have no evidence of that.

But my most severe criticism is that they have not bred a champion in 20 years. For all of their firepower and ability to use it to their own benefit.

In every decade before the current situation there were around 20 champions born but in the last two decades not a single champion from Ballydoyle. They may corner the breeding market but they are no good whatsoever for racing. Nothing about them appeals to me. Absolutely nothing. 

I like Stakes races and Group races, I do not like handicaps. So almost every race I am interested in I have to deal with a mob from Ballydoyle and no-one knows which is the best, even their stable jockey.
Report FELTFAIR July 17, 2020 10:48 AM BST
Clearly differing opinions on this subject and I am fine with that. However, I notice the Ryan Moore cyber bully impossible 123 has stuck his oar again which has no relevance to this discussion and once again he demonstrates his lack of circumcision.
Report truehoncho July 17, 2020 10:52 AM BST
We are shifting a little way from race tactics now. I suggest small breeders in Ireland have a great deal to thank them for. As far as the champions issue is concerned I expect many of the horses people consider champions over the last decade or so will involve Coolmore stallions. That's their role in the industry to provide stallions to breeders. You don't breed to race you race to breed and they do that exceptionally well.
Report G Hall July 17, 2020 10:52 AM BST
I have to disagree with brigust on Vincent's hatred of the Brits, If i am not mistaken, Vincent sent his children to England to be educated, and I never heard anyone from North Cork with an accent like Vincent's.

In my humble opinion, I think he was trying to be like an Englishman.
Report truehoncho July 17, 2020 11:06 AM BST
So almost every race I am interested in I have to deal with a mob from Ballydoyle and no-one knows which is the best, even their stable jockey.  ---  I took this point separate because I agree 100% with you, but its not their fault. They pretty much know every year that they will have the best middle distance 3yo's (and often sprints and stayers as well). They don't need to gun them up the gallops to find out which one is best and risk breaking them in the process. Instead they just enter lots with potential (particularly in 3yo races) and see what falls out. If you look at other operations that get a once in a blue moon top class horse they feel they have to train it to the second and very often get it wrong. Military March is a great example. That doesn't suit you and I understand that but you would probably do the same in their position.
Report brigust1 July 17, 2020 12:05 PM BST
Despite Ireland's neutrality thousands of Ireland's sons and daughters crossed into disrupted, dangerous Britain to join her armed forces, to act as nurses or to work in the armaments factories. Vincent's wife Jacquline recalls, 'On our honeymoon, Vincent and I disagreed over Ireland's neutrality.' She, as a loyal Australian ally, criticized it; Vincent supported it, because of what he saw as the 700 years of oppression Ireland suffered at the hands of Britain.   
They resolved never to discuss or even refer to the subject again. They never have.

'I could never leave here,' Vincent once told me back in 1975. He was gazing West at the time, and the sun was crimson as it placed long shadows over the tranquil gallops of Ballydoyle. He stood quietly for a few moments, perhaps recalling the pounding hooves of the flying Nijinsky, or Sir Ivor, or perhaps Roberto. And he stared down it the old Norman tower, one of Ireland's reminders of conquest. And then I remember him smiling as he turned away and began to walk back towards the house. But he stopped once more, and he turned again towards the distant farmlands from which, down the years, so many had fled. And he was not smiling any more. He just stood there, a five foot eight inch giant among Irelands patriots and said quietly, 'Never'.   

You really should read the books.
Report elisjohn July 17, 2020 1:21 PM BST
brigust, im the same group races and in particular group1 is my thing, thats why i enjoyed studying the form and knowing coolmore werent mob handed in last weeks july cup, was really great
Report FELTFAIR July 17, 2020 1:54 PM BST
Vincent wasn`t that anti British when he turned to one L.Piggott.
Report Try My Best July 17, 2020 6:20 PM BST
Think my racing knowledge is pretty good Brigust and I've read Horsetrader about 100 times it's that good of a book. I could nearly recite off by heart the passage that you posted above from the same book. I just think that to call them cheats is way off the mark and belittles their skills and professionalism. That's why they are the best. It's no hobby horse for them, it's about knowledge of the horse and breed aligned with a trainer that epitomises class and decency with a work ethic that is streets above anyone else. To get to this position when they were relying on individual wealthy investors such as Sangster, Schwartz, Robert Fluor and Patrick Gallagher to name but a few against the billions at the disposal of the Arabs surely is some achievement and should be recognised accordingly. Have they ever been accused or found guilty of wrongdoings by the international racing community and establishment or by their fellow peers. I cannot recall anything from memory.
Report Try My Best July 17, 2020 6:35 PM BST
Aidan O'Brien, the most successful trainer in the world this season, and his stable jockey Johnny Murtagh were both found in breach of the rules of racing yesterday following a British Horseracing Authority inquiry into alleged "team tactics" in the International Stakes at Newmarket last month. Colm O'Donoghue, another regular rider for O'Brien's Ballydoyle yard, admitted a breach at the same hearing.

O'Brien was fined £5,000 for failing to adequately inform his jockeys of the BHA's rule that riders "shall not make a manoeuvre in a race in the interests of another horse in common ownership". However, the disciplinary panel was satisfied that this was the result of "ignorance rather than any sense of calculation", and that there was no there was no suggestion that he had engaged in deliberate cheating.

This is the only case I can remember and many thought this was a trumped up charge.
Report brigust1 July 17, 2020 8:06 PM BST
That is a bit naive Try. Churchill's win in the 2000 where the team kept the other runners in the middle of the track on the slower ground while Churchill nipped up the rails. And Capri's Irish Derby where all the Ballydoyle runners swung out wide coming into the straight to push out Frankies horse and the French horse. These were pretty blatant and they were called out on them but it is difficult to prove.
His jockeys are not going to testify against him so all they can do is shown above.

Sorry but, to me, they are cheats at best.

I am still trying to work out Ryan Moore's position. He gets it wrong far too many times so all I can think is that he gets his cut no matter which one wins. That way they can put him on losers and their bookies side will clear any additional cost involved with paying him a bonus.
Report Try My Best July 17, 2020 9:56 PM BST
Was at Newmarket when Churchill won the 2000 and had backed him accordingly. Looked superb in the paddock on the day and nothing wrong with how the race was run. No skullduggery and no complaints from anyone. Best horse won on the day. Kings Best came from last to first to beat Giants Causeway in the Guineas in a big field. I'm sure if they wanted to get in the way of Fallon and Stoutes beast they could have done it easily. We have opposing views Brigust which is fine. Everybody entitled to their opinion.
Report glentoby July 17, 2020 10:12 PM BST
How many more years/decades until the world realises that AOB is as much of a genius as the guy with one leg who lost his house betting on himself in arse kicking competitions?
Report Try My Best July 17, 2020 10:19 PM BST
Dear oh dear
Report G Hall July 17, 2020 11:30 PM BST
As usual a good discussion interrupted by an idiot
Report glentoby July 17, 2020 11:36 PM BST
He tried his best so don't knock it!!!!WinkWinkWink
Report brigust1 July 18, 2020 12:21 AM BST
Actually Try, at the time it was extensively discussed on the tv.
Churchill was drawn wide in 3 and ended up on the rails thanks to Lancaster Bomber who when they reached the cutaway pulled out from behind Churchill, after letting Churchill get in front of him and on the rails, and then,with the other O'Brien runner, they kept all the other runners bar the one behind Churchill out on the course while Churchill was the only horse on fresh ground on the rails.
As the commentator said 'the O'Brien trio holding formation'.
He would never have got to the rails without his stable companions help and he would not have won. When he met the second horse next tie he beat him nearly 5 lengths.
A crook! End of.
Report Try My Best July 18, 2020 12:44 AM BST
The rest of the fancied horses were hold up merchants only to glad to slipstream the ballydoyle contingent and hope to pounce late on. They were all beaten on merit on the day. When the commentator says they were running in formation do you honestly believe that he was referring to some kind of team tactics. Please tell me you don't think that.
Report brigust1 July 18, 2020 9:21 AM BST
You must be living in a dream world Try. What do you think AOB says to his jockeys, or any trainer for that matter? 'Hi boys, have a nice ride. See you when you get back'. Do you really think he hasn't looked at where his horses are in the stalls and where he would like them to be in the race? Who to follow and who to avoid? And who the dangers are?
You are clearly watching the race through AOB tinted spectacles. Lancaster bomber actually stopped Barney Roy from getting to the cutaway here Moore was. Lancaster Bomber's jockey reining back to let Moore get in front of him and on the rails was not an accident. Do you think if LB was from another stable he would have let Moore in? Do you think Santiago would have 'got the gap' if it wasn't between two stable companions in the Irish Derby?
Report impossible123 July 18, 2020 11:33 AM BST
I totally concur with the win of Churchill in "that" 2000G victory - I was on him. But, his task was unquestionably made easier with his stablemate Lancaster Bomber paving the way for him strategically to get on the rails (faster ground), then drifted out wide to "prevent" the others slip-streaming  Churchill - they were deliberately made to plot a wider course.

Anyone not noticing that must either be watching a different race or having an ulterior motive not conducive to fair play in horse racing; Churchill could still have won, but his task was made significantly easier with the help from his stablemate Lancaster Bomber and team tactic employed by AOB/Coolmore.
Report Try My Best July 18, 2020 12:05 PM BST
Team tactics form no part of pre-race preparations at Ballydoyle, Aidan O’Brien insisted on Monday. “I promise you, never ever,” the trainer said when the subject was raised by the Guardian, concern having been expressed in public by the owners of the two horses currently at the head of the betting for Saturday’s Derby.

“I can guarantee you, every horse runs on their merits to do their very best and there would never be a plan to do this or do that to any other horse,” said O’Brien, who will be seeking a record-breaking eighth Derby success this weekend. He has seven of the 17 possible runners at his stable in County Tipperary, though none are shorter than 7-1 in the betting.


Talking Horses: Aidan O'Brien outlines plans for quick Derby double
Read more
O’Brien has so many talented horses in his care that he usually has several runners in the best Flat races in Britain and Ireland, the most recent example being Saturday’s Irish Derby, in which he had six of the 14 who took part and ended up with the first four home. That means he is well placed to influence the way in which a race develops and his several runners are generally eyed with mistrust by rivals with a single runner.

Sheikh Fahad, whose Kameko is second-favourite for the Derby, spoke up through Twitter after the St James’s Palace Stakes at Royal Ascot, saying: “There’s no place for team tactics in racing, such a shame to watch the St James run like that.”

While he did not name O’Brien, the Irishman was the only trainer with more than one runner in that race. One of the jockeys he employed was asked by stewards to explain his riding and the instructions he had been given, but in the end they did not find any rules had been breached.

Sunday’s Racing Post brought another intervention, from Bjorn Nielsen, whose English King is the Derby favourite. “A lot of people with good horses are worried,” he said. “Team tactics threaten to devalue racing at the highest class. A pacemaker is one thing but sitting there and forming a peloton is quite another.”

While he also did not name O’Brien, he spoke approvingly of Ger Lyons’s comments after the Irish Guineas, in which Siskin had to be strong to establish racing room among Ballydoyle runners. “We knew through the history books what the Ballydoyle riders were going to try to do,” Lyons said, though he added: “All is fair in love and war. It’s a big boys’ sport and you just put on your big boy pants and get out there and do the job.”


O’Brien was careful not to use any names in his answers, saying at one point: “I don’t ever talk about anyone else’s horses or any other people. I would be always afraid that I would offend someone and that’s why I say very little most of the time.”

But he insisted rivals had nothing to fear on this score.

“Every single horse, I will always give the jockey what I think is the best instructions for that horse to win that race. Some horses want to be ridden forward, some horses like to be mid-div, some horses like to be dropped in.” He noted an apparent assumption on the part of his rivals that, when he fields several runners, one of them will set the pace.

“What happens a lot of the time, if one of our horses is not making the running, there’s no pace and the race becomes an absolute muddle, everyone is jockeying for positions. It can become very messy.”

While he did not wish to cite an example, O’Brien feels sour grapes can be a factor in some of the things said about his operation. “Sometimes what happens is a big jockey or a big trainer, high profile, they might start crying after the race, to relieve pressure off themselves, for their owners or for some mistake that they made. And it’s easy for them to point the finger at us.”


Talking Horses: jockeys seeing benefits of one race meeting per day
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O’Brien expects to have at least six Derby runners. Armory may yet be diverted to France, he says, but that would still leave Vatican City, Mogul, Russian Emperor, Amhran Na Bhfiann, Mythical and Serpentine.

Asked which he expects will be the choice of his principal jockey, Ryan Moore, O’Brien said: “I haven’t spoken to him yet but looking at it, Vatican City, if he stays, he’s a very classy looking horse. Usually what happens with Ryan is, he gets the declarations [on Thursday], he sees the draws and then I tell him everything that I think and then he has to make a decision. And it’s not an easy one this year.

“Because Ryan is not here now, he’s in England all the time, he’s not going to know how much Mogul improved but I would be telling him. He’s going to think, obviously, that the horse in the Guineas [Vatican City] was a very good run, so he has to be very close in the pecking order. We would always leave him to leave that decision as late as he can because, really, nobody knows until they go out there and cover that distance on the day.”

I believe O'Brien is telling the truth.
Report impossible123 July 18, 2020 12:14 PM BST
A regular repetition of events on the field do not lie. If you believe AOB I'd expect you to believe Cummings (his journey to Durham); Bojo and Hancock (procurement of PPE) and Blair (WMD in Iraq).
Report Try My Best July 18, 2020 12:31 PM BST
Are you calling O'Brien a cheat and a liar then?
Report impossible123 July 18, 2020 2:52 PM BST
No, economical with the truth to a great extent - yes!. The adjectives used to describe his multiple runners eg battalion, football team, etc, from various racing luminaries cannot be all wrong. Let's put it this way. If AOB had been a business associate of mine I'd definitely have taken his words with a large pinch of salt (for self-financial preservation).
Report Try My Best July 18, 2020 2:56 PM BST
No I didn't think you would. You would have needed deep pockets.
Report Hayden July 18, 2020 3:02 PM BST
Crikey didn't know this thread was still going , surely run its course hasn't it ?

The eventual outcome looks destined though for nobody to change their mind , believe what they've posted themselves and meanwhile Aiden will keep on winning the vast majority of the races that really matter.


Good punting all     Happy
Report impossible123 July 18, 2020 3:15 PM BST
I do not think AOB/Coolmore would seek the judiciary to decide on their position in a sport they dominate against a nobody like yours truly who's not a professional pundit/presenter for fear of opening another can of worms that could be as deadly as Civid-19 for themselves and the sport.

You have your interpretation and perception of their multiple runners strategy, and I have mine. We'll only agree to disagree...but prudent to be cautious where betting is concerned.
Report brigust1 July 18, 2020 3:28 PM BST

Jul 18, 2020 -- 6:31AM, Try My Best wrote:


Are you calling O'Brien a cheat and a liar then?


Yes. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like suck. Then, guess what? It is a f***ing duck.

Report brigust1 July 18, 2020 3:34 PM BST
*duck LaughLaugh
Report FELTFAIR July 18, 2020 3:39 PM BST
Libelous I`d say.
Report brigust1 July 18, 2020 3:50 PM BST
Have to wait for Johnny Depp to finish first. I've called them crooks for years and I am not about to change my beliefs any time soon. And it appears I am nowhere near the only one with Sheikh Fahad and Bjorn Neilson speaking up. I bet the list is of witness's is endless.

You will be witness wouldn't you Try? What about you Impossible?
Report FELTFAIR July 18, 2020 3:54 PM BST
Don`t ask him he`s never been circumcised.
Report impossible123 July 18, 2020 3:59 PM BST
I'd donate to any social-funding to normalise the Coolmore mob.
Report Try My Best July 18, 2020 4:12 PM BST
Would be great if it went to Court brigust. The forum could dine out on it for ages. I call Brigust to give evidence in his defence. Followed by the judge's final statement. "Take him down"
Report brigust1 July 18, 2020 4:45 PM BST
It ain't gonna happen Try. But what may happen is that AOB may make particularly certain that team tactics are not possible. He just may go out of his way to ensure his jockeys do not shut off other horses (English King) or push out other horses (Churchill) or let stable companions have a clear run (Santiago).

I am pleased to see others feel the same as I have for a long time, irrespective of the pro Ballydoye bandwagon, and they are now prepared to speak up. We may well get many more to follow.

In fact we may just get some accurate results.  I will be watching closely.
Report elisjohn July 23, 2020 3:41 PM BST
theyre winning every effing race, with allsorts
Report Fire-and-Ice July 23, 2020 3:57 PM BST
If someone says 'I don't do this and that', surely one is allowed to think/say I don't believe him.
Just because someone is loaded doesn't give them carte blanche to spout any old bowlocks................m'lud Cool
Report kevo July 23, 2020 5:46 PM BST
brigust1 wrote:

It ain't gonna happen Try. But what may happen is that AOB may make particularly certain that team tactics are not possible. He just may go out of his way to ensure his jockeys do not shut off other horses (English King) or push out other horses (Churchill) or let stable companions have a clear run (Santiago).

                          ---------------------------------------------

As far as I can see English King (dr 1) swerved left at the start and then Frankie straightened him up and settled in behind Mogul (dr 2). That position was maintained until turning into the straight where Frankie moved EK from off the rails and at the same time Mogul went 2/3 lengths clear of him. It took over 3f for English King to catch and pass Mogul near the winning post.

As far as I can see it was the draw and the swerve that left EK in behind Mogul and he failed to quicken when Mogul did, at no time did I see any AOB jockeys trying to shut off EK during the race.
Report G Hall July 23, 2020 6:14 PM BST
English King was poorly ridden which is not a surprise when you consider the pilot.
Report impossible123 July 23, 2020 6:28 PM BST
The ride on English King was poor similarly Kameko. The jockeys on both were watching each other, and AOB's principal runner Mogul. Then realised they'd been sold a dummy, and the bird had flown.
Report brigust1 July 24, 2020 10:12 AM BST
You obviously have a different TV from me Kevo. And you have difficulty following the narrative.
My main point was that Beggy brought Vatican City across to block English King in a pocket. Martin Dwyer on Pyledriver was in that position but Beggy muscled him out of it. English King was then in a Ballydoyle pocket until they reached the home straight.
Some poor souls more intelligent than me will say it was accidental whereas I think it was by design.

If you look at the race it was Ballydoyle against Kameko and English King. They ran a front runner to ensure it would be difficult for Kameko to stay and they blocked in English King.

As I have said you may think it was accidental but they are the facts, like it or not. And I don't like it.
Report truehoncho July 24, 2020 10:20 AM BST
Is this thread still going???? In the Derby virtually all the jockeys misjudged the pace. Not sure you can prove anything from this race.
Report brigust1 July 24, 2020 10:26 AM BST
Good morning Honcho. I thought so too. Just been getting rid of an old Aga, came in and there it was. Not the Aga you understand.
And, like you, I had to respond. Have a nice day. Wink
Report truehoncho July 24, 2020 10:36 AM BST
Greetings Brigust. I look forward to your King George conspiracy theory tomorrow evening after Enable get beat.Laugh
Report brigust1 July 24, 2020 11:00 AM BST
I can see little chance of that how that AOB has had his knuckles metaphorically rapped. Two horse race for me and probably everyone else. What could go wrong? Cry

I have been in and around horseracing all my life and if anyone thinks trainers do not look for chinks in their opponent's armour then they are sadly mistaken. And quite right too as long as it isn't associated with team tactics. And even then the facts may be interpreted differently from one viewer to another. Then common sense comes in I suppose.
What would be interesting is what the trainer tells the jockeys. If you watch the Derby the 3rd horse, AOB's, ridden by Buick slows the pace just as they start coming down the hill and allows the winner a long lead. Why would he do that? He then gets after him entering the home straight and finished a very surprising third. Even he capitalised on the slow pace adding to it himself as well. Was that by design?
Report FELTFAIR July 24, 2020 12:13 PM BST
Team tactics or no team tactics the time for the race was comparable (allowing for going variations) with all winners over the last ten years. The best probably being Golden Horn and the worst Ruler of the world.

Like it or not and surprising a result it may have been but the winner ran a time good enough to win the race and the others on the day were not good enough and I do not subsribe to the notion that world class jockeys in behind misjudged the pace or that they were"stopped" from running their race. If that were the case I would expect the race time to be "slow" but it wasn`t.
Report brigust1 July 24, 2020 12:54 PM BST
Let's just wait and see how the 2nd and the third get on in their next races, shall we? That is if they dare to run them again.
Report FELTFAIR July 24, 2020 1:10 PM BST
Beaten over five lengths Group 3 or Listed at best.
Report impossible123 September 11, 2020 7:53 PM BST
I think O'Brien senior can trump his sons in the biggies tomorrow ie Matron Stakes and The Leger. He'd take the Park Stakes too with Wichita on prevailing better ground. I'd like to see Limato win but he might have his glory days already.
Report elisjohn September 11, 2020 9:49 PM BST
oh no another one,   group1 over a mile

theres far far too many now ,
Report elisjohn September 12, 2020 3:44 PM BST
aiden no genius, his son can do win classics , group1 no problem.
Report elisjohn September 13, 2020 4:19 PM BST
joseph another group1LaughLaugh, unreal to be honest
Report stewarts rise September 13, 2020 4:32 PM BST
The son of God was pretty good as well wasn't he, walked on water and all that!
Report Try My Best September 13, 2020 4:49 PM BST
What a day for then O'Brien clan. Truly remarkable
Report elisjohn September 13, 2020 4:52 PM BST
makes you wonder , doesnt it, in all honestyWink
Report elisjohn October 3, 2020 10:22 PM BST
containated feed  seems the answer, this stable will never be in the class of henrys , warren hill
Report elisjohn October 3, 2020 10:25 PM BST
place WinkGrin
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