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elisjohn
03 May 20 08:00
Joined:
Date Joined: 15 Jun 03
| Topic/replies: 17,201 | Blogger: elisjohn's blog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTQmh3OOSss

god she flew last 1/2 furlong
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Report foxy May 3, 2020 8:08 AM BST
Recorded the 1000 Guineas from 83 onwards yesterday just going to watch them now with a nice cup of tea will stick my two twopennyworth in shortly Elisjohn.
Report foxy May 3, 2020 8:14 AM BST
I think many forget how impressive pebbles was in the Guineas due to other performances later in her career
Report elisjohn May 3, 2020 8:16 AM BST
Wink, dont miss the 81  fairy footsteps, im always going on about lester ride in this , sublime, its on you tube
Report foxy May 3, 2020 8:18 AM BST
I remember 81 one of my all time favourites Marvell didn’t stay money recovered in Paris.
Report foxy May 3, 2020 8:20 AM BST
Miesque would have been a fair price 1 1/2 out
Report foxy May 3, 2020 8:34 AM BST
Just seen harayir we spoke about the other day still don’t remember the race Crazyalso didn’t remember how impressive sleepytime was.
Report Andrew.in.Sweden May 3, 2020 8:41 AM BST
Zarkava if you include the French version Wink
Report foxy May 3, 2020 8:53 AM BST
On the day Cape Verdi was hugely impressive. Nice to see Natagora not a great winner nor an impressive winner but a filly I liked and was convinced she would win the Guineas just watching it again this morning that was a long final furlong Happy
Report foxy May 3, 2020 8:55 AM BST
Good morning Andrew I am sure whilst in lockdown we will get the reruns of the french classics and there will be a thread on them ,I know they don’t win us any money but they are very enjoyable .
Report Andrew.in.Sweden May 3, 2020 9:27 AM BST
Good morning Foxy. I first saw Zarkava at an Arc meeting when she won the Prix Marcel Boussac. I didn't back her that day, but kept her name in my head as i was so impressed the way she won and thought she could win our 1000 Guineas the following year (2008). A French horse did, but not her as she stayed in France.

A wonderful filly with a superb turn of foot to match the best colts we've seen and i include Dancing Brave. My favourite filly along with Enable, it'a a pity the Aga Khan didn't keep her in training, imagine her against Sea The Stars in the 2009 Arc, i truly believe she could have won.

A link to her Boussac win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S87u5E7AgW8

At the 400M pole she jinks her head to the left for whatever reason (maybe greenness) and Soumillon has to bring her off the rail, but at the 200M she really starts to accelerate and it's race over. Note her 'bunny' hop in the last 50M.

I never get tired of watching her videos, there are several on You-Tube.
Report foxy May 3, 2020 9:38 AM BST
She was a terrific horse and yes a match up with sea the stars would have been something to see.
Report foxy May 3, 2020 9:40 AM BST
Over the years I think the aga khan has been the biggest culprit for denying horses that could have been even better at 4 sinndar springs to mind.
Report elisjohn May 3, 2020 9:40 AM BST
just watched miesque again, bloody hell how did she win !
Report Cardinal Scott May 3, 2020 9:54 AM BST
Ravinella won with plenty in hand and had Diminuendo trailing.
Report Cardinal Scott May 3, 2020 9:56 AM BST

May 3, 2020 -- 3:40AM, foxy wrote:


Over the years I think the aga khan has been the biggest culprit for denying horses that could have been even better at 4 sinndar springs to mind.


Aga Khan seems a right diva.....discarded trainers all over the place, even Stoute was discarded.

Report foxy May 3, 2020 9:57 AM BST
Back to the 1000 Guineas ,some great winners pebbles,miesque,salsabil,sayadati,bosra sham,minding,Cape Verdi ,Russian rythem and sky lantern all achieved plenty in the careers,fillies beaten in the race like habiti,tryptych,diminuendo,kooyoonga,marling,reams of verse,lyric fantasy,six perfections,petrushka,and lightning thunder all great horses,but my pick on the day Elisjohn is Cape Verdi overall career yes miesque would be the best.what I did notice watching the reruns from 83 onwards is how the strength in depth has declined in the 1000 Guineas.


Another thing I noticed and I mentioned it on the el gran Senor thread yesterday is what a shocking commentator graham Goode was and for such a long time.
Report sageform May 3, 2020 10:02 AM BST
Culprit is an emotive word foxy. Owner breeders have their own policies and in the case of the Aga Khan and his advisors, the policy is to improve the breed and to produce a continuous supply of group performers. In the case of sires you may be right that some could have raced on but for mares, the object has to be to breed from them as soon as you have enough evidence of their ability. My profession was as a population geneticist in the pig industry and I would do the same. What I would not do though is produce so many animals that are descended from a very small number of sires as inbreeding will eventually reduce performance. The Age Khan uses quite a few unfashionable sires and that is a good policy if they are unrelated to the mares. I strongly believe that is why he and his ancestors have been successful for so long but he has weakened his policy by not competing in UK for many years.
Report sageform May 3, 2020 10:08 AM BST
Can't agree with Cardinal either! He quit the UK after the disqualification of an Oaks winner. He has been extremely loyal to trainers. Royer-Dupre has been his main French trainer for as long as I can remember and so was John Oxx for many years in Ireland. Dermot Weld and Mick Halford have been his others in Ireland. In UK over the 50 years that I recall he only used 3, Johnson-Houghton, Cumani and Stoute and as I say, he moved out of UK after a dispute with the BHA, not the trainers.
Report Cardinal Scott May 3, 2020 10:12 AM BST
Stoute had Kalanisi & other previously with Cumani (more falling out)....that was long long after Aliysa & why did he dump John Oxx?
Report foxy May 3, 2020 10:43 AM BST
Good morning sageform

I’m not really that we’ll clued up on the breeding side of the game so am happy to accept your defence of the aga khan ,however I am definitely with cardinal on his falling out with trainers and in fact the racing in the uk for a period.
Report Cardinal Scott May 3, 2020 10:58 AM BST
Going completely off-topic found a 1982 doc on YT called Stewards Enquiry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqH9dLARww8
Report second again May 3, 2020 11:05 AM BST
Miesque was a very good winner of the 1000 gns but I think the field came back to her a bit.My memory is not what is was but I remember backing Half A Year in the St James Palace stakes because he had ran the final furlong faster than Miesque when winning his maiden on 1,000 gns day.
Report Gibberish May 3, 2020 2:59 PM BST
In answer to the question of the best 1000 Guineas winner over the last 40 years...it IS Miesque - by some margin too!

I know there've been some quality winners but I'd say that ALL of the elite brigade were moreso 10-12f performers;
Pebbles, Oh So Sharp, Bosra Sham, Midway Lady, Salsabil, Minding etc.

However good the above were...none of them could've matched her trademark terrific burst over a mile. No chance!
Report Gibberish May 3, 2020 3:38 PM BST
I'd go as far as to include the 2000 Guineas winners too...or older milers!

There's a very short list of horses over the last 40 years that she'd not be
able to get the better of...especially in receipt of a fillies' allowance.

El Gran Senor, Dancing Brave & Frankel are the probably the big three and again, they were
successful over longer trips.

There are sure to be votes for Zafonic, Zilzal, Goldikova, Kris, Warning, Nureyev etc...even
an often overlooked King's Best on his top form.

These kind of threads are great for debate - an old forumite from years ago called Shay
used to start them and he'd get all his 'facts' wrong Grin
He was great entertainment though and he's missed by many I'm sure.
Report STELLAR MANIPULATOR May 3, 2020 4:42 PM BST
Since 1977 , the best four winners on official ratings ( performance in the race itself ) are as follows

1987 - MIESQUE 122
1984 - PEBBLES 120
1997 - SLEEPYTIME -120
1998 - CAPE VERDI -120

The best performance in the race this century was FINSCEAL BEO ( 118 - 2007 )
Report elisjohn May 3, 2020 4:45 PM BST
Zafonic on that day was brilliant and no one would have beaten him   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9gDKdZ3qzA
Report Andrew.in.Sweden May 3, 2020 4:51 PM BST
Not a Guineas winner but Goldikova would have given all the prementioned a race, rated 125 as a 3 year old.

A year later she was on 130 and the 2nd best rated horse in the world behind Sea The Stars.
Report Andrew.in.Sweden May 3, 2020 4:52 PM BST
prementioned fillies
Report foxy May 3, 2020 5:46 PM BST
No racecourse commentary on zafonics 2000 Guineas which in a strange way made it visually even more impressive.
Report foxy May 3, 2020 5:48 PM BST
Can’t argue to much with those ratings stellar although I would have had Cape Verdi on Guineas day top ,no doubt they are the best 4.
Report elisjohn May 3, 2020 5:53 PM BST
i know shatoush went on to win a classic but that has to be one of the worst 1000 field.
Report foxy May 3, 2020 5:56 PM BST
Musical bliss possibly
Report foxy May 3, 2020 5:57 PM BST
Hermosa possibly
Report STELLAR MANIPULATOR May 3, 2020 6:11 PM BST
Lowest rated winners in recent times ( based on performance in the race itself and not by reference to what they did subsequently ) were SPECIAL DUTY( 2010_ and SKY LANTURN (2014) both on 111
Report breadnbutter May 3, 2020 6:22 PM BST
Pebbles was a fav but Hatoof was happy days and 2kG +1kG double don't come along every year, both Hatoof and RDT were decent prices and surprisingly were best horses in race and both delivered.

Cape Verdi won well too, another good day,as was Attraction win, she was a good un too.
Report breadnbutter May 3, 2020 6:28 PM BST
Bosra Sham was a beast,pwopper oss, mieseque was a nice oss too but everyone knew.
Report elisjohn May 3, 2020 6:31 PM BST
didnt fancy rodrigo myself after his greenham defeat
Report breadnbutter May 3, 2020 6:32 PM BST
Triptych won the Irish 2kG, has there ever been a Filly win the 2kG?
Report G Hall May 3, 2020 6:40 PM BST
Salsabil was a class act, and she won a good enough guineas I think.
Report foxy May 3, 2020 6:47 PM BST
Salsabil won the Irish derby the day England beat Cameroon in the World Cup quarter final
Report foxy May 3, 2020 6:51 PM BST
Breadnbutter sceptre was a filly she won the 2,000 Guineas Cape Verdi ran in the derby
Report foxy May 3, 2020 6:53 PM BST
11/4 fav finished unplaced won the lowther when owned by Sangster but her 1000 win was by a long way her best performance.
Report breadnbutter May 3, 2020 7:02 PM BST
Afirmative
Report breadnbutter May 3, 2020 7:03 PM BST
Memories come flooding back, well more drips than floods tbh Cry
Report Cardinal Scott May 3, 2020 7:56 PM BST
If Miesque was so good how come Milligram took care of her in the QE2
Report foxy May 3, 2020 9:35 PM BST
They all get beat cardinal








Other than frankel
Report elisjohn May 3, 2020 10:22 PM BST
there it is , miesque 2/7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WfkoFxHQ1A
Report Gibberish May 4, 2020 5:22 AM BST
CS - I haven't been in log after a bit of a session so I'll respond tomorrow afternoon as
I've had a skinful and I've got plenty to say - I suspect you're pulling my písser Devil

It's a very poor fishing expedition...and you're not gonna trap me in your keep-net at this hour Grin
Report sageform May 4, 2020 7:57 AM BST
Milligram was also a very good filly from a very good family. One In A Million was a close relative who won the York international.
Report Gibberish May 4, 2020 4:01 PM BST
CS - "If Miesque was so good how come Milligram took care of her in the QE2" Tongue Out

I'm going from memory here as my books are in the loft, so I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong on any aspect of the following;

Miesque was comprehensively beaten by Milligram at Ascot as you said but you can't seriously believe that was Miesque's form - I don't
think anyone would. The Stoute filly was a top performer but she was totally overshadowed by Miesque throughout her career despite
eventually getting her day in the sun. If memory serves...on that day the ground was like a road and I think Milligram shattered
the course record - secondly, Steve Cauthen took the mount for the first time as her usual pilot Freddie Head was suspended and
most relevant, she uncharacteristically played up at the start which she'd never done before.

I can't recall whether or not her run might've been excused due to her being in season and to be fair to Milligram, over the years
it's not a reason I've been too happy with as I've always assumed connections would be aware of things like that, know the signs and
keep records of dates.

They met on three other occasions and each time, Milligram was mastered in decisive fashion by the French filly - as a 2yo, she was
easily run down by Miesque's usual blistering finishing burst in the Marcel Bállsac, the same story in the 1000 Guineas and then after disappointing at Ascot, Miesque bounced back to hammer a quality field including Milligram & Sonic Lady (again) in The Breeders' Cup Mile.


She was defeated on three other occasions in a fantastic career - I never managed to see the Prix Robert Papin as a 2yo, but in the
other races, she was beaten by the marvellous Indian Skimmer when failing to stay over 10.5f in heavy ground and also in The Moulin
where (just like Zenyatta) she was memorable and enhanced her reputation in just failing to peg back the brilliant Soviet Star who
received a superb ride from Cash Asmussen, getting a decisive lead after hemming Miesque in on the rails...in a 4 or 5 horse field!
I wish that race was available online...it was an absolute master-class.

As you'll probably gauge, I was a huge fan - she was often compared to looking like a toast rack...in that she wasn't the prettiest
filly and her ribs were clear to see, but she's my favourite - reminiscent of my penchant for average (even moderate) women who are
keen to please Devil

Sage - One In A Million was Milligram's dam but she wasn't the one you're thinking of who won The Juddmonte/International...that was
One So Wonderful, though she too was from that family - all owned by Helena Springfield.
Report foxy May 4, 2020 4:56 PM BST
3 way photo at York I think gibberish
Report Cardinal Scott May 4, 2020 5:03 PM BST
That QE2 was a very strongly run race, Sonic Lady was no mugess either.
Report elisjohn May 4, 2020 8:28 PM BST
after watching her 1000 win, there would be no way id be backing her at ascot on fast ground over a mile, im very surprised she won again over a mile, including beating warningSurprised
Report Gibberish May 5, 2020 5:24 PM BST
This thread has had me thinking about that particular generation of fillies 2yo of 1986/3yo of 1987....all born in 1984.
I can't say I've seen a better group.

Besides Miesque & Milligram, we had Indian Skimmer, Forest Flower, Minstrella, Polonia & Unite - all quality Group One
winners, not just ones who turned up in those events and could only make the frame.

That's off the top of my head...I've probably overlooked a few other good 'uns too.
I reckon of that lot, Miesque & Indian Skimmer would rank amongst the greatest fillies & mares of all time!

The 80s really was a magical decade - it's the same story...possibly even better with the 70s.
Are the rose-tinted glasses coming out again with me?
Report Cardinal Scott May 5, 2020 6:34 PM BST
Nom De Plume
Report Cardinal Scott May 5, 2020 6:36 PM BST
Three Tails

Scimatarra  A sad end we don't know what would have happened
Report Gibberish May 5, 2020 6:49 PM BST
CS - I reckon they were probably bit-part players though I get your point with Scimitarra.
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