El gran senor

Speaking of jockeys, and this is once again back in the 90s, we had an office in London and one of the girls I worked with was going out with a jockey who had previously won an Arc. One day she came in with a big bag of cash, around four grand, and asked if any of us would drive her to Newmarket as her boyfriend wanted a decent bet on one of his rides that afternoon. It won too.

Come on Johnny who was the jockey

It would be indelicate of me to divulge TMB but he was extremely good.

Irish english or french?

^ You missed out the American

Elisjohn my one and only visit to the Curragh it was the first Sunday derby kayasi beat insan

watched it earlier, i thought insan had held on

4k in the 90s was a lot of Cash.

Probably the start of Richard Quinn’s fall out with the owner he lost his whip inside the final furlong,3 rd home was a Sangster horse possibly glacial storm .

TMM

I backed insan Elisjohn I also thought it had won ,the photo took ages the flight home wasn’t as enjoyable as it should have been.

Kayasi I thinkran in the agas french colures

In normal times we may have been comparing pinatubo tonight with all the great Guineas winners

Mind you in normal times most of us wouldn’t be on the internet at 9 o’clock on a Saturday night

Would you have been there today foxy ?

They would not have been able to get enough on at 1.01 on here - on El Gran Senor, in that Derby

Good morning democrat

Yes the plan was two nights in the lovely city you live in.


Good morning onlooker


Perhaps 1000 king best around 2 1/2 furlongs out.

Hope your both well

I backed it ante post and on the day of the race backed the winner as it looked to me the only horse that could beat it.
Ended up I won £50 more with the winner.

I saw El Gran Senor win on his debut, still have the card.

I presume the Curragh or Phoenix park mjk?

May 4, 2020 -- 4:54PM, foxy wrote:

I presume the Curragh or Phoenix park mjk?

Yeah the Park. Pretty sure he was odds on. Though that wouldn't be a surprise as a lot of MVOBs were first time out at the track.

What was Phoenix park like never got the chance to go ?

In the book Horsetrader Magnier had a big ew bet on Secreto in the Derby. I can't believe that his son did them out of a $80 million syndication and that some arrangement wasn't made in light of what was at stake. All credit to them for running the horse. TryMyBrest : Makes sense. Timeform tipped up Secreto on stamina doubts concerning the favourite. Doesn't mean Magnier wanted El Gran Senor beaten, obviously. But Secreto was c 12/1 if memory serves.

Johnny Mustang - Was that a jockey that had, in fact, won three Arcs in a row?

May 4, 2020 -- 10:11PM, foxy wrote:

What was Phoenix park like never got the chance to go ?

A flat track, home straight was just over 4f. The sprint track across from the main straight was at the time second only to Epsom as the fastest around. In latter years they started to run 10f races(and some 1m ones I think) the opposite way(a few of the Champion Stakes races on YouTube) so they started at the winning post, ran about 4f, turned left then finished down the sprint track. A lovely place on a summer evening. I got the impression towards the end that there were more people there to be seen than to actually punt. The 'jockey bashing' Cash Rasmussen used to get was legendary. Even for all his experience he seemed a nervous wreck when on an O'Brien hotpot. Great memories there, though unfortunately once saw a horse impale itself though a rail, a horse ironically called Keep Straight.

*Asmussen

Did forest flower Paul Mellon’s win the big 2 yo race there I think it was called the hienz 57 back then?

And thanks for your guide to Phoenix park.

not certain but commanche run winning the champion stakes was the last champion to be run therre

https://www.bing.com/search?q=irish+champion+stakes+1985++you+tube&form=EDGE...

https://www.bing.com/search?q=irish+champion+stakes+1985++you+tube&form=EDGE...

999afef66aaf48ba86612627685e7d98&

oops making a mess of the commanche run you tube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbN7JSZ71a8 
thats better

I enjoyed watching that Elisjohn couldn’t watch it earlier as don’t know how to get them like,I only remember Phoenix park as a name there seemed a good crowd there shame it closed ,I know the park is still open.

Not often tryptych didn’t run her race,,pretty sure bob back caused a huge shock at royal ascot one day ,possibly the prince of Wales,and as for the winner Comanche run what a performance whilst I remember him well particularly when winning the st leger and later in the season at Newmarket when the big match was on between him and slip anchor the race was  turned into a procession by pebbles,I hadn’t realised how good he was on the day,£261,000 to the winner the commentator at Phoenix park said that’s not a bad effort in 1985.

Some good images of bookies at Phoenix Park on this link:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/taking-a-punt-at-the-phoenix-park-racecourse-1.3411612

Thanks jm I shall get the daughter to find me the link.

No problem at all Foxy. Hope you’re keeping safe and well.

not certain but i think that phoenix park is a zoo now?

foxy ,( couldnt get them earlier), do you mean my previous links, they were errors on my parts

Thanks jm hope everything is ok with you

No what it is Elisjohn I am not very good with computers so I have to get my daughter to get those links people post,like the one jm has posted I will have to wait till she gets it for me.

im very similar, foxy, ive just learnt how to copy and paste, that why i do it often on these old races,

Elisjohn it’s definitely a tourist attraction when you stay in the hotels there’s always leaflets about it I have a feeling there is also some kind of palace there but the zoo does ring a bell.

Jm the bookmakers over there haven’t change that much compared to over here.

May 5, 2020 -- 8:39PM, elisjohn wrote:

not certain but i think that phoenix park is a zoo now?

There's apartments now covering about half the area of the old racetrack. There used to be a big grass mound down near the 7f start which is still there. The Zoo is about 15 min walk down the road.

anyone know if commanche run champion was the last irish champion stakes to be run there?

Pretty sure Park Express won it there the year after.

no im wrong seems it was 1990 , when elmammul won it

The event was established in 1976, and it was initially held at Leopardstown as the Joe McGrath Memorial Stakes. It was named in memory of Joe McGrath (1887–1966), the founder of the Irish Hospitals' Sweepstake and a successful racehorse owner.

The race was transferred to Phoenix Park and renamed the Phoenix Champion Stakes in 1984. Its present title was introduced in 1991, when the event returned to Leopardstown after the closure of its former venue.

The Irish Champion Stakes became part of the Breeders' Cup Challenge series in 2009. The winner now earns an automatic invitation to compete in the same year's Breeders' Cup Turf.[1]

The Irish Champion Stakes has become a very useful prep race for the remaining major races in the Autumn schedule such as the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, Champion Stakes, Breeders Cup, Hong Kong International Festival and major Group 1 races in Japan. The 2016 edition of the race was possibly one of its strongest editions with eight out of 12 participants winning 17 career Group 1's between them prior to the race. The form of the race would later see four of the participants win further Group 1 honours by the end of the 2016 season, producing a first & second in that year's Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, first and second in the Champion Stakes, the winner of the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes, and first and second in the Breeders' Cup Turf.

Winners of the Irish Champion Stakes have gone on to win the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in the same season on five occasions: Carroll House (1989), Suave Dancer (1991), Dylan Thomas (2007), Sea The Stars (2009) and Golden Horn (2015), and a sixth Arc win was achieved when 2016 Irish Champion Stakes runner-up, Found, won the 2016 edition of the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe.

Winners of the Irish Champion Stakes have gone on to win the Champion Stakes in the same season on six occasions: Triptych (1987), Indian Skimmer (1988), Pilsudski (1997), New Approach (2008), Almanzor (2016) and Magical (2019). The race has produced two further winners of the Champion Stakes with the 1986 third, Triptych, and the 2010 third, Twice Over, subsequently winning the British race that season.

Participants in the Irish Champion Stakes have gone on to win several Breeders' Cup titles in the same season. This includes five winners of the Breeders' Cup Turf, with Irish Champion Stakes winners such as Daylami (1999), Fantastic Light (2001), High Chaparral (2003) achieving a season double, while 2015 Irish Champion Stakes runner-up, Found, and a 2016 participant, Highland Reel, found success in the respective season's edition. In 2006, third placed Ouija Board went on to win that season's edition of the Breeders Cup' Filly & Mares Turf.

Success has been also achieved in Japan where the Irish Champion Stakes winners, Stanerra (1983) and Pilsudski (1997) won the Japan Cup in the same season. Meanwhile, 2011 runner-up, Snow Fairy, gained compensation by winning that year's Queen Elizabeth II Commemorative Cup

Records
Most successful horse (2 wins):

Dylan Thomas – 2006, 2007

theres 10 top champion stakes for you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rapgOeAFl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rapgOeAFlk try this

May 5, 2020 -- 9:22PM, elisjohn wrote:

no im wrong seems it was 1990 , when elmammul won it

Yeah just racking my brain there, remember Indian Skimmer winning as well. I remember me and a mate cycling up for Commanche Run's race and watching it at the winning post(there was a gap in the rail over that side which some people used who just wanted to watch a race or two). Memories.

Did forest flower win the hienz 57 there or was that the Curragh ?

Or did she not win it

May 5, 2020 -- 9:31PM, elisjohn wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rapgOeAFlk try this

The Heinz races would give an idea of how quick the sprint track was. At one stage a very good horse of Dermot Weld's called Committed held the sprint record. Not sure if it was ever beaten.

May 5, 2020 -- 9:33PM, foxy wrote:

Did forest flower win the hienz 57 there or was that the Curragh ?Or did she not win it

The race was run there but the name was changed to the Phoenix Stakes. Beaten narrowly by Minstrella.

Didn’t committed win the cork and orrery?

Thanks mjk I remember it was a Sunday which was a novelty as we at the time didn’t race Sunday’s.had a feeling she might have got beat but wasn’t sure

watching those top 10 races, christ they were strong fields with some top class winners, not knocking sea the stars here but how was he given a 140+  for defeating his  field

May 5, 2020 -- 9:38PM, foxy wrote:

Didn’t committed win the cork and orrery?

Yes. Also the big sprint at York and the Abbaye(Steve Cauthen rode). Previously had finished third to Chief Singer in the July Cup. Definitely better over 5f than 6f. Some great sprinters around that era, Habibti another one.

Not long after the trilogy Marvell,sharpo and morestyle.

Elisjohn the Irish champion is almost always a cracking race even in recent years it’s been the highest rated race in the world on some occasions.

suave dancer mighty impressive

Watched him win from the old champagne bar at doncaster

Toulon for France won the st leger

Suave dancer had terrific speed for a middle distance horse

phoenix park memories ....they ran a hurdle race there in 1981. i kid you not .

Did you ever get there Windsor?

May 5, 2020 -- 9:56PM, windsor knot wrote:

phoenix park memories ....they ran a hurdle race there in 1981. i kid you not .

Didn't Willie Mullins ride the winner??

foxy , i went once . the night in 1981 they decided to run a hurdle race !...a sunny , lovely night . pat eddery rode a short priced double for vincent o'brien . viewing was not great but , hey ho, in the present climate i would crawl there from england to go racing again !

I’ve said the same about goodwood ( not keen on goodwood) on another thread tonight.i have a few trips booked later in the year for racing over there just hoping it’s back to normal.

Just got sent a link that I missed yesterday. Hard to believe its closed 30 years. I'll save it for tomorrow.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buzz.ie/amp/sport/phoenix-never-rose-30-years-park-racecourse-still-missed-367046

tuesday 4th august 1981, the 7.10pm was the sean graham handicap hurdle , 2k , winner ; track scout , trained by  andrew geraghty, ridden by d o'gorman  , ...p mullins , presumably paddy , trained the 2nd . according to my racecard ridden by anthony mullins .

Great stuff. Apparently jump racing was the norm there long before my time.

mjk , i've not read earlier posts that much on the thread so apologies for repeats ..but phoenix park was despised by a large number of irish racegoers who considered it a rich man's plaything of the sangster/ magnier/ vincent  o'brien rich monopoly . how things have  changed ! lol.

May 5, 2020 -- 10:26PM, windsor knot wrote:

mjk , i've not read earlier posts that much on the thread so apologies for repeats ..but phoenix park was despised by a large number of irish racegoers who considered it a rich man's plaything of the sangster/ magnier/ vincent

I said to foxy in an earlier post that it ended up as most of the people being there to be seen, and not punting.

Very true

May 5, 2020 -- 3:01PM, foxy wrote:

And thanks for your guide to Phoenix park.

One other thing foxy, at the start of every race the boys band at the track used to play a little jingle as soon as the commentator (usually Dessie) would say 'they're off'. The horses would run nearly a furlong before he could resume commentating

I wish they would do that at Yarmouth when thommo is the commentator only for longer.

this is how itv should still be covering racing
superb you tube of secreto/ el gran senor derby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E4IQZMRmZc

Watched El Gran Senor win the Dewhurst and the 2000 Guineas; Pat Eddery rode him like a motorbike.
Nobody then thought that Saddlers Wells would prove the superior sire.
But history may be repeating itself with Frankel and Nathaniel?

How did he not win the Derby I was there that day,and could not believe it,and I still can't.

He wasn't stout enough.

I know he won the Irish Derby afterwards but he was really a miler I reckon, and about the most the most exciting miler I ever saw. (Frankel was great but more a case of wind him up and let him go at that distance).

G hall I often wonder the same,I still think one day he will go on and win.

Lester would have got him home.

Legend has it he whispered something like that to Vincent shortly after the race.

Foxy if you go onto the ATR site under racing legends Pat Eddery says he pulled up in front in that Derby . They learned their lesson and held him up till last second in Irish Derby...

P. Park used to run the Rank Hurdle every year the horses disappeared behind the stands  MJK , I kid you not. I took my wife racing in 80/81 or thereabouts it was her first time racing and nearly last,  one of Mick O'Tooles  I can't think for the life of me , I think it had an American name but it actually set a World Record that day.

Foxy - I think this is the best description of it.

The Derby result which left O'Brien stunned
In 1984, Vincent O'Brien had won the 2,000 Guineas with the brilliant El Gran Senor, who went on to take his chance in the Derby as an odds-on favourite with a valuation of $80 million - in those heady days of ludicrously overinflated stallion fees - on his head if he could bring home another Classic.

Unfortunately, after one of the most exciting Derbys of modern times, El Gran Senor challenged full of running under a confident Pat Eddery and held a distinct lead only to find the gritty Secreto (trained by Vincent's son David) too tough a proposition in the dying strides. O'Brien's star went under by a short head and his stud value crashed.

A stunned O'Brien, torn between delight for his Derby-winning son and dejection about his Derby-losing colt, was standing on the Epsom lawn with Robert Sangster and the other connections when Lester Piggott, who had finished fifth in the Derby aboard second favourite Alphabatim, strode past him on his way back to the weighing room.

Without checking his stride, without missing a beat, Piggott turned to O'Brien and Sangster, muttered: "Missing me?" out of the side of his mouth and was gone.

May 15, 2020 -- 6:38PM, workrider wrote:

P. Park used to run the Rank Hurdle every year the horses disappeared behind the stands

I remember the 12f flat races when it used to happen as well WR

Time told.
It seems crazy that an $80 million price tag should be quartered because of the finish of that race; but the valuers were right.
It was Saddlers Wells, not El Gran Senor, who provided the foundation for the classic breed going forward.
Credit to Magnier for testing to destruction on the racecourse.
Maybe that's why he is still number one in that sphere.

and Eddery took a breeding right in The Señor instead of Sadlers Wells just to compound matters for him.

I did not know that.

Eddery declined so much in retirement, compared to Piggott.

Think it was his free breeding right and chose the wrong one. I'm sure we would have made the same choice.

I would have. Magnier would have got on the right one.

I recall Brough Scott interviewing VOB and Sangster straight after the race and they both looked stunned even though it was bitter sweet for VOB as his son had just trained the winner!

at least they did the interview, this coolmore mob will never be interviewed after a group1 defeat by a really fancied one, fact,

A bit harsh that elisjohn. AOB is always classy in defeat and comes on to talk as does Tabor. We never see Magnier in victory or defeat these days. Whilst their PR has never been great I think it's improving. Only time I saw AOB look and sound a bit miffed was after Pink Dogwood got beat in the Oaks. I think there was some justification in that.

im certain you know more than me, so i apologise, but im still watching racing on itv/c4, but i can count on one hand theyve been interviewed after a group 1 race on there>. ( but i suppose can you blame them )with those itv lot

AOB said one of the nicest things I've ever read about the nature of competition and I cannot locate it because I don't know the words exactly but the sense of it was: "When one of ours is beaten and I see the winning connections celebrating, I am happy for them. We all have to live."

Ttt