Flat 2%!

The benefit as mentioned above comes from all the options that get opened up which now become possible that only require margins over 2% rather than nearer 5%
Greater liquidity in markets and low tax increases higher yield through more transactions

You going on word of mouth willie or did you experience it?

They have been trying different measures to increase risk from customers. Letting them keep more encourages more bets, more bets entices more users. Its just tory tax ideology

i assumed as did most that the only thing that would change was your comm drop gain to 2%..
then a lad with me told me his scenario..

im still awaiting a call from bf or an email from acc manager.

Im not calling him a liar, but to get rid of the 'buffer' would mean losses take at least x amount more time to recoupe, where X=PC rate

So 40% more wasted time
Nah
People would just f uck off once they hit PC

just to be clear...1.5% is the absolute extreme case, and the only time that happens will be customers on 5% natural rate, and to be on 5% they'd have to be playing in buttons, so it would be 1.5% of not very much anyway

If you were natural rate 4% and won 5K a week, they only be giving you £2600 over the year....and they hope youll use it in the exchange....just like their experiement last year for layers Id imagine

im no expert on pc but if i win 2k and my commission is 4% they take £80 commission and £720pc =£800 in total ,, if i opt 2% they will take £40 commission and £760pc =£800 so whats the difference the end result is the same i win £1200 after commission and pc ???

so you think buffer has to still be in place?

oh no bugs bunny is tuco

hahaha pmsl

no dave im telling you what i pay at 4% as i dont pay 40% come wednesday its alway less because i have already paid 4% on the bets as they won through the week

read the whole thread bugs you are incorrect in your assumption for all practical purposes

so you think buffer has to still be in place?

Needs to be or there will be a whole lot packing in I promise you that
putting 40% margin on account while giving back 1.5 would finish people very very quickly

dave i have read the thread and im more confused than before i had , 2 weeks ago i won 2k paid commission at 4% £80 and pc on wed £720 leaving me with 1200 so on my calculator they took 36% on wednesday making it 40% in total thats fact and thats how they rinse me every week

ok go on 8% like tuco - gl

im asking what i would pay at 2% dave if you cant answer dont comment with a dumb reply , i pay pc every week but its never at 40% , like i said im no expert thats why im asking for a genuine reply ,

bugs
you arnt giving enough info for an objective reply
you would have had to have known what your lifetime was for a kick off, as they take the lesser of the two calculations

bugs

2%
win £1000
£20 commission
£20/2= £10 towards pc
owe £400 pc , minus £10 = pay betfair £390
£590 profit

4%
win £1000
£40 commission
£40/2= £20 towards pc
owe £400 pc , minus £20 = pay betfair £380
£580 profit

you might well have paid 80 quid but thats not what they will have calculated, they add it to implied then half it

this is betfair's job ffs

2%
win £1000
£20 commission
£20/2= £10 towards pc
owe £400 pc , minus £10 = pay betfair £390
£590 profit

hold on ,in this example is the pc calculated on the £1000 win or the £980 profit after paying the initial commission

aye i get that dusty the pc is a pain in the arse  i just pay it dont really try work out there method ,i prefered a fix rate but when u smash that out the ball park they keep upping it till you go back on the pc with a buffer

if you win £1000 in 1 bet and that's your profit for the week, doesn't your P+L show £1000 profit , and then PC is calculated on this, even though you already payed commission ?

in 1 bet

That's the problem with the over-simplifaction of any examples. Depends on the make up of losses and wins and what the difference between your commission and the implied commission actually is.

on that note, anyone know whether implied commission will still be 3%?

true darlo, i guess it all depends on how you bet , if you have lots of losses or not . but it's the easiest way to give an example to others and we did do an example including implied

pablo-fanque 02 Oct 19 20:27 
if you win £1000 in 1 bet and that's your profit for the week, doesn't your P+L show £1000 profit , and then PC is calculated on this, even though you already payed commission ?

p&l shows 950 profit..comm 50 then halved..pc is 40% og gross (1000) minus charges =£25

pablo , i dont have many losers at all but this week im not having many winners lol but in general i dont generate much commission

Oct 2, 2019 -- 2:33PM, Wesdag wrote:

on that note, anyone know whether implied commission will still be 3%?

That's what I thought. I wonder if this will start a change to the PC calculation process.

and on that calculation of yours willie how much pc would you pay at 40% ?

cheers willie

surprised kemo not contributing more to this thread

It wouldn't make much sense for implied commission to be 3% when everyone (except tiny) is on 2%

wtf is going on here?!

Is this the pc? never paid it before, not had any comms about it?

Selections
Selection
Odds
Stake(£)
Bid type
Placed
Profit/loss(£)
Wenjun Xie
75.00
2.10
Lay
02-Oct-19 21:00
2.10
*Average odds: On  Off
Back subtotal:
0.00
Lay subtotal:
2.10
Market subtotal:
2.10
Commission @ 41.43%:
0.87
Net Market Total:
1.23

Not available
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where is the contact us page?

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where is the contact us page?

don't know what it id but not PC - some weird minimum commission thing?

ok, so maybe an error on their side? not gonna chase for 80p but don't want it to happen again.

what does it say on your account statement for the bet? I'd query it if you make a habit of long price lays for smallish bets.

bugs bunny 02 Oct 19 20:02 
dave i have read the thread and im more confused than before i had , 2 weeks ago i won 2k paid commission at 4% £80 and pc on wed £720 leaving me with 1200 so on my calculator they took 36% on wednesday making it 40% in total thats fact and thats how they rinse me every week

won £2,000 gross = £80 comm £1,920 net.
charges = £80/2 = £40
PC = £2,000 x 40% = £800 -£40 = £760PC ..£1,920 - £760PC = £1.160 prophet.

Charlton2005 ...

Explanation needed - Commission Rate on Athletics Markets is - coincidentally -    2%     

UK wallet

Commission on this market

2% Market Base Rate

could he have got shafted by 1p bots?  If his bet was taken in small increments?

Can someone tell me where this is?

Guessing I don’t have it.

8 years back I signed a 10 year deal for a 20% rebate, 4% commish and a signing on fee in the low 5 figures.

At the time i wanted to pay off my student loan and get a Submariner so thought why not...free money for nothing.

Don’t think I’m getting signed again....the game has changed...new people running the show...they even skimping on the Christmas Hampers. My last on had sh*t from Tesco’s Finest innit.

Ghastly...

dave1357
Date Joined: 05 Sep 10
Add contact | Send message
02 Oct 19 21:34
Joined: 05 Sep 10 | Topic/replies: 10,934 | Blogger: dave1357's blog
what does it say on your account statement for the bet? I'd query it if you make a habit of long price lays for smallish bets.

thx for your help Dave. the statement cleared it up. I had a winning bet earlier on this market a day or two ago and the comm was allowing for that!

all good, thx again.

Willie Shafter.
02 Oct 19 21:53
Joined: 15 Jul 04 | Topic/replies: 31,698 | Blogger: Willie Shafter.'s blog
bugs bunny 02 Oct 19 20:02 
dave i have read the thread and im more confused than before i had , 2 weeks ago i won 2k paid commission at 4% £80 and pc on wed £720 leaving me with 1200 so on my calculator they took 36% on wednesday making it 40% in total thats fact and thats how they rinse me every week

won £2,000 gross = £80 comm £1,920 net.
charges = £80/2 = £40
PC = £2,000 x 40% = £800 -£40 = £760PC ..£1,920 - £760PC = £1.160 prophet.

amazing that some of you guys make this pay even after 40% comm! a few living legends on here.

and somehow I thought I was paying 40%

The simple summary of PC is below:
> Once you are profitable AND your lifetime commission is less than 20% of lifetime profit you 'qualify' for the PC.
> Assuming your lifetime profit is less than £250k then the PC will be 20% of profit in any week (Mon to Sun) where you make a profit. PC increases to 40% or 60% once lifetime profit goes above £250k.
> The PC will roughly equal the difference between total commission paid and 20% of your profit. It's not quite as simple as this but near-as-dammit for this summary.
> The first £1k of PC owed is not chargeable. I guess this is to give people a buffer while BF contact you with the "good news".
> There is NO carry over or buffer from week to week. If you make loss one week this will have no bearing on the charge in a following profitable week (unless the loss takes you back out of the PC bracket).

There are more complex factors at play that have smaller impact so I have ignored them for the purpose of a simple summary.

Hope this helps.

think I was a bit ambitious thinking I was paying a pc

Oct 2, 2019 -- 4:38PM, Charlton2005 wrote:

Willie Shafter. 02 Oct 19 21:53 Joined: 15 Jul 04 | Topic/replies: 31,698 | Blogger: Willie Shafter.'s blog bugs bunny 02 Oct 19 20:02  dave i have read the thread and im more confused than before i had , 2 weeks ago i won 2k paid commission at 4% £80 and pc on wed £720 leaving me with 1200 so on my calculator they took 36% on wednesday making it 40% in total thats fact and thats how they rinse me every weekwon £2,000 gross = £80 comm £1,920 net.charges = £80/2 = £40PC = £2,000 x 40% = £800 -£40 = £760PC ..£1,920 - £760PC = £1.160 prophet. amazing that some of you guys make this pay even after 40% comm! a few living legends on here.

Working off 40% or even 60% PC is possible if your game is consistent. If you are making £1k each and every week then you can budget for a £400 weekly charge. If your system loses £2k 75% of the time and wins £10k 25% of the time then you are stuffed.

> There is NO carry over or buffer from week to week. If you make loss one week this will have no bearing on the charge in a following profitable week (unless the loss takes you back out of the PC bracket).

surely a loss has to take you ovewr the 20% as the PC charges makes sure you are just a fraction under the 20%

Oct 2, 2019 -- 5:05PM, Willie Shafter. wrote:

> There is NO carry over or buffer from week to week. If you make loss one week this will have no bearing on the charge in a following profitable week (unless the loss takes you back out of the PC bracket).surely a loss has to take you ovewr the 20% as the PC charges makes sure you are just a fraction under the 20%

The 20% of profit threshold is for LIFETIME COMMISSION not LIFETIME TOTAL CHARGES. PC does NOT count towards the 20%.

PC does NOT count towards the 20%.

Erm. Yes it does.

Jamee1
Are you implying there’s been a change because that’s not how they calculate it;

By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting plus any Premium Charges you’ve incurred.

That is still in the tc’s

What jamee1 is suggesting would bring down the exchange mechanism imo and quickly, are you saying you know this to be true or have you got it wrong/

The 20% of profit threshold is for LIFETIME COMMISSION not LIFETIME TOTAL CHARGES. PC does NOT count towards the 20%.

rubbi**** total charges.

?

You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit and only if the total charges generated since joining Betfair are less than 20%† of your gross profits.

There’s nowt to see here
I’m off

Hmmmm, I thought I understood this well and my 3 year plan has been based on it! I need to revisit my analysis and check this all again then. Apologies...

OK, sorry. I think the reason there is eventually no buffer for a consistently profitable account is because the 20% charges to profit ratio is based on "gross profit" and not "net profit". (*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets.)

Therefore once you start paying the PC your gross profit will shoot away ahead of your net profit and charges to profit ratio will continue to decrease.

I used to be good at maths. Now my head just hurts!

...and it is the higher-end PC (for accounts +£250k) where the calculation is based on commission only / profit ratio. Apologies. So once you get to this band there is absolutely no losing-week buffer offset.

No.
You have still got it wrong.
The commission to profit is the calculation to determine which level you are on.
It’s the same going forward, just a higher amount.
You arnt helping you are just adding confusion.

Oct 2, 2019 -- 7:15PM, dustybin wrote:

No.You have still got it wrong.The commission to profit is the calculation to determine which level you are on.It’s the same going forward, just a higher amount.You arnt helping you are just adding confusion.

Yeah, got it now. I'll slip back quietly under my stone...

just took the 2% offer i'm lifetime £40k down so i hope thats my starting point but as i am a trader arber taker etc i will never make the £40k back but i will add loads to the liquidity as i amwas still using matchbook bet daq smarkets about £20k a week thats £1 million a year its got to be be good for all

Skybet Paddy online merger should also be good in short term long term no good for us pro's

kemo,,,can you settle this argument please?

There is NO carry over or buffer from week to week. If you make loss one week this will have no bearing on the charge in a following profitable week (unless the loss takes you back out of the PC bracket).

surely a loss has to take you ovewr the 20% as the PC charges makes sure you are just a fraction under the 20%

who told you this willie they are getting rid of the buffer with this new deal ?

(unless the loss takes you back out of the PC bracket).

Which is must do as the last charge puts you exactly on the bracket.

*it must do

bugs..

Willie Shafter. 02 Oct 19 17:05 
lad i work with has just told me hes been on 2% for mths but he dont get any buffer if he loses.
going to contact my acc manager now.

but as ive said,if bf lose 1-2% every winning bet,whats the benefit of the 2% deal to them? if you lose,your charges will rise above the 20/40% so you will still have to get respite from losers,unless the premium charge is being scrapped.
Need clarification and im still waiting.

ive read and follow this thread , but i admit i honestly dont know what youre going on about( its way above my comfort zone), im simply on commission been  down to near 3.0 but now  on 4.3, am i the only one on betfair thats not on this pc? my lose over the years here are huge, but i have won loads off bookies, i do trading and have arbed especially when pricewise was money from heaven few years back before the bookies restrictions, and if anyone on here say they didnt then id be shocked, anyway im on the 2%now, will miss the cash race, but my betting goes silly when i try and reach my targets, so thats definetly an own goal by betfair there, but like screaming said now i,ll be more select and get my life in order

Holy Christ
Now I can see how Donald trump and Boris and ducking stools came about, people are just like cats and go off on their own mad brained version of things.

Jamee1 has admitted he got it wrong, twice. Willie has thrown a curve ball based on supposition at this point and pretty much all other bar pablo, latanolone (or whatever), darlo thingybobs, Willie and Dave (although he threw up a strange one while I was having my tea lastnight, as did willie.....but perhaps they were at cross purposes) have a grasp of it.

Tiny doesn’t, he’s in the infant pool with water wings on and hasn’t finished his education yet.

That should read ‘haven’t grasped it’

so dusty,do we still have the buffer scenario or not

The only thing that has observably changed at this point is the commission offerings, everything else remains the same, the tc’s haven’t changed, the portal still shows how the ‘buffer’ exists (but we would have to wait to see if that changes next Monday.....but I doubt it)

I just think this is tried and test economics that loosened the chain a bit re. Commission....they could have said something about it to stop all this guessing, but they don’t do much of it at the best of times, plus it’s in ‘beta’ if the splashed it everywhere and changed their minds they’d look right f poking noobs

Holy Christ
Now I can see how Donald trump and Boris and ducking stools came about, people are just like cats and go off on their own mad brained version of things.

its called confirmation bias, you see it pretty much every thread you read

Defn. Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that affirms one's prior beliefs or hypotheses. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning.

I've been on 2% for months and was getting access to the PC portal when I was below 50% charges.  I've moved back over 50% so don't see the portal - that couldn't have happened surely if they changed the calculation?

Does nobody else find it shocking & frightening that a business with such a massive market capitalisation value (and that is holding our balances!) seems to have employed the Pinball Wizard as their head of communications?

Dusty doing a fine job on their behalf - but where are the comms???

It's no wonder people are skeptical about it all, TBF.  Who else remembers their first attempt at a PC 'concession', which would have effectively meant everyone could have a 6/4 punt about an even money shot every Sunday, till the issues with that were highlighted to those running the show and the brakes were applied to it all.  They don't have a great record with thinking things through (or retrospectively applying stuff).

Hi Lata - I hope you are well. Exactly that ^^^^^

It's like deja vu all over again (which makes me very cynical as to what the next "tweek" will be and when it will be "communicated"!)

dustybin
03 Oct 19 10:12
Joined: 29 Dec 08 | Topic/replies: 16,792 | Blogger: dustybin's blog
The only thing that has observably changed at this point is the commission offerings, everything else remains the same, the tc’s haven’t changed, the portal still shows how the ‘buffer’ exists (but we would have to wait to see if that changes next Monday.....but I doubt it)

I think this thread was meant for the non pc smaller players. as pc people got involved it has become a discussion about the pc and its implemtation. but I think dusty is right. nothing in regard of the pc has changed?

PANIC OVER.

everything bar the commission rate stays the same.

so what was 'the guy next to you' all on about then?

If he's got that deal with bf where losses are his but winnings are bf's then he needs to retire

ive told him so.

an example of the new deal.

im on 3.5%..i place 11 x £1000 even money bets..6 win..so,gross win is £1000..
net win is (£1000 -6 x £35 = £210 = £790) implied losses are 5 x £30 = £150
charges that week are £210 + £150/2 = £180
PC £1000 x 40% = £400 -£180 = PC £220
£790 -£220 = £570 net profit.


now im on 2%..i place 11 x £1000 even money bets..6 win..so,gross win is £1000..
net win is (£1000 -6 x £20 = £120 = £880) implied losses are 5 x £30 = £150
charges that week are £120 + £150/2 = £135
PC £1000 x 40% = £400 -£135 = PC £265
£880 -£265 = £615 net profit.

1000-(6x35)
B+

You just need to make sure youre not near the threshold to jump up to 50% as you will get there quicker with a base rate 2% commission...doubt many people know where on the scale they are

an example of the new deal.

im on 3.5%..i place 11 x £1000 even money bets..6 win..so,gross win is £1000..
net win is (£1000 -(6 x £35) = (£1000 - £210) = £790 implied losses are 5 x £30 = £150
charges that week are £210 + £150/2 = £180
PC £1000 x 40% = (£400 -£180) = PC £220
£790 -£220 = £570 net profit.


now im on 2%..i place 11 x £1000 even money bets..6 win..so,gross win is £1000..
net win is (£1000 -(6 x £20) = (£1000 - £120) = £880 implied losses are 5 x £30 = £150
charges that week are £120 + £150/2 = £135
PC £1000 x 40% = £400 -£135 = PC £265
£880 -£265 = £615 net profit.

(£1000 -(6 x £35))

an example of the new deal.

im on 3.5%..i place 11 x £1000 even money bets..6 win..so,gross win is £1000..
net win is £1000 -(6 x £35) = (£1000 - £210) = £790 implied losses are 5 x £30 = £150
charges that week are £210 + £150/2 = £180
PC £1000 x 40% = (£400 -£180) = PC £220
£790 -£220 = £570 net profit.


now im on 2%..i place 11 x £1000 even money bets..6 win..so,gross win is £1000..
net win is £1000 -(6 x £20) = (£1000 - £120) = £880 implied losses are 5 x £30 = £150
charges that week are £120 + £150/2 = £135
PC £1000 x 40% = £400 -£135 = PC £265
£880 -£265 = £615 net profit.

(210+150)/2
but we splitting hairs
good enough

an example of the new deal.

im on 3.5%..i place 11 x £1000 even money bets..6 win..so,gross win is £1000..
net win is £1000 -(6 x £35) = (£1000 - £210) = £790 implied losses are 5 x £30 = £150
charges that week are (£210 + £150)/2 = £180
PC £1000 x 40% = (£400 -£180) = PC £220
£790 -£220 = £570 net profit.


now im on 2%..i place 11 x £1000 even money bets..6 win..so,gross win is £1000..
net win is £1000 -(6 x £20) = (£1000 - £120) = £880 implied losses are 5 x £30 = £150
charges that week are (£120 + £150)/2 = £135
PC £1000 x 40% = £400 -£135 = PC £265
£880 -£265 = £615 net profit.

Ive stopped looking but all very good

Now you see what I was getting at all that time ago regarding the higher the comm rate fixed, the worse deal you get over all due to the difference above market base rate of 3%

willie what happens if you place 5 £1000 bets at evens and they all win whats the difference then at your current rate and 2% ?

Some sharp minds wasted on here.

Could get jobs at NASA.

willie what happens if you place 5 £1000 bets at evens and they all win whats the difference then at your current rate and 2% ?

old comm rate 3.5% net profit £4825 gross £5000
charges 175/2 = 87.5
pc 5000 x 40% = 2000 -87.5 = 1912.5 = 2912.50 net profit.

2% comm rate  net profit 4900 gross 5000
charges 100/2 = 50
pc 5000 x 40% = 2000 -50 = 1950 = 2950 net profit.

Yet again they change..but not without having everything satisfactorily aligned to keep the main cogs working their wheel

Purple to respond by going 1%?

FYI Gin