in running liquidity worst iv ever seen it

what are the 15 tracks tom...???

i bet epsom is one of them...

all ARC hibs:

Bath

Brighton

Chepstow

Doncaster

Ffos Las

Fontwell Park

Lingfield Park

Newcastle

Sedgefield

Southwell

Uttoxeter

Windsor

Wolverhampton

Worcester

Yarmouth

oh sorry tom...

so they are doing the GPS thingy at ARC tracks only...???

always found YARMOUTH impossible tbh...

and WINDSOR is getting that way also imv...

appears so hibs, brighton my worst

come to think of it most of that 15 are pretty bad for me right enough tom...

it'll be BOT v BOT before Betfair gets it's finger out and does something about it tho...

shame that.

ATR provide stride length and sectional timing....after the race, which doesnt sound very helpful to me
Even if their transmissions showed data in 'real time' for customers it wouldnt be much good when the broadcast has the handbrake applied

That just means somebody is using it themselves.....hmmmmmm

so they are doing the GPS thingy at ARC tracks only...???

Makes sense. ARC tracks are the easier ones for me versus the market using Betfair LV, and supposedly the pictures are slower than RUK tracks. So anyone able to program that live has a huge advantage.

and supposedly the pictures are slower than RUK tracks.

-------------------------------------------------------

i think a few people would dispute that in all honesty...

people who think RTV pics are 'super fast' need to wake up imv...

perhaps there is something in the above suggestion but
some of the worst automated tracks for running this flat season have been Beverley and Epsom amongst other RTV tracks so im not buying that it is 'the answer'

tips for in play betting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1IfPOOOe0s

how to beat the markets.

good watch

good watch

-----------

i'm really pleased i just wasted 11 minutes and 21 seconds of my life watching that...

A reduced delay is only bad for those who relied on it, surely it's good for everyone else?

what are the 15 tracks tom...???

i bet epsom is one of them...

-----------------------------------

tom...

pretty sure i spotted 2 different groups of folk doing some sort of GPS thingy in the middle of the track at Epsom...

one bloke on his own sat on a camping chair...

and a couple of other laddies a few yards away...

i've seen them before actually....

they are definitely not just there for some fresh air and to look at some nice horses on a sunday afternoon...

so if they can do it at Epsom they can do it anywhere imv...

always suspected strange things at Epsom and like i say i've seen these folk there before...

you'll see them in the apprentice derby race...

BLATANT.

Sep 27, 2019 -- 6:09PM, tomhunt wrote:

suspecting it for a long time, something has to drive the markets with gps data

I did predict it quite a while ago and was told by the vast majority that I was barking.

in running liquidity was shocking yesterday...

and today it looks even worse after 3 races...

things are grinding to a halt rapidly now imv...

only a matter of time before the final curtain is drawn imv.

HH did you just write that post or was it one you brought up from ten years ago?

wrote it about 4 minutes ago gerard...

i thought cheltenham 2019 would be the end of the road...

things steadied for a while but the decline over the summer leads me to believe that if we get to cheltenham 2020 we'll be doing well...

no doubt a few will say i'm being too negative (and that's fine)...

but i'm only giving an honest opinion...

and the future is certainly not bright.

about the only time you get half decent liquidity is with a photo or stewards these days...

which makes it utterly brainless when Betfair refuses to re-open the market for a photo finish (especially when it's a tricky angle)...

just tells you even Betfair has given up now...

you would not play on a poker site full of automated bots, therefore is should be no different on an exchange. unless its people v people then its just gonna die a slow death.

Many yrs ago betfair did not have a 1 sec delay in-running and it played much better and was more enjoyable to use.  removing the 1 second delay for a while to test would be my advice to betfair, otherwise its curtains for the in-running horse market in a couple yrs.

Betfair supposedly did a survey not that long ago about removing the 1 second delay and supposedly 'we' said we didn't want the 1 second delay removed...

i have yet to hear of anyone who was asked...

you work it out...

@dixi

"Many yrs ago betfair did not have a 1 sec delay in-running"

How long ago was that?  My understanding (and I have only been on here for 10 years) was there was always a delay in-running.

@Happy

Me neither - I'd very much like to see zero-second delay IR for Racing

its not like the 1 sec delay protects the users as you cant cancel your bet . Just in place so the betfair bot can rape us all.

Betfair supposedly did a survey not that long ago about removing the 1 second delay and supposedly 'we' said we didn't want the 1 second delay removed...

the question was asked on the forum by betfair themselves. 99% of people said remove it . apparently and as far as i remember what i was told was that bot users would  not be happy with the delay being removed so betfair left it .

you have to think that this is probably a handful of bot users that are creating most of the liquidity in running and are far more important ( in betfairs eyes ) than the rest of us

nail hit on head pablo....

nail hit on head also big n0b...

@pablo I guess you could be right

@dixi - what's this "betfair bot"?  People keep referring to it and no-one will say what it is.

cross matcher, and its implementation was when the delay was introduced if I remember correctly

I remember it being sold as the device to match more of the open bets across other options, but I think most think its capricious since when its turned off the markets are much better

Sep 30, 2019 -- 5:11PM, longbridge wrote:

@pablo I guess you could be right@dixi - what's this "betfair bot"?  People keep referring to it and no-one will say what it is.

betfair,s cross matching software bot needs the 1 sec delay to be able to function, but i would also suggest several other large liquidity providing bots also don't have the 1 sec delay

betfair,s cross matching software bot needs the 1 sec delay to be able to function

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that may well be Betfair's view DE...

or shall i say that's what Betfair may well tell US...

but i'm not convinced of that at all...

@dixi

"cross matching software bot needs the 1 sec delay to be able to function"

Sory dixi, but that's clearly not true - you can observe the cross-matcher in action on pre-play markets with no delay.

(by-the-by, I don't think thinking of the cross-mtahcer as a "bot" is a useful way to understand it.  But maybe that's me).


And "rape us all" is a pretty extreme way to describe what the cross-matcher does - how do you think it 'rapes' you?

an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation...

the bot is doing the damage..not the cross matcher.

if the cross matching does not need the 1 sec,   then why have the delay ?  its maybe one option betfair have to do something to improve the in-running game. they should at least have a trial run without the delay

if the cross matching does not need the 1 sec,   then why have the delay ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

maybe coz they want some other things to not be subjected to the 1 sec delay...???

just a guess on my part...

1 sec for a sophisticated computer to calculate algorithms..seems fair

Sep 30, 2019 -- 5:18PM, DixiEnormus wrote:

Sep 30, 2019 --  5:11PM, longbridge wrote:@pablo I guess you could be right@dixi - what's this "betfair bot"?  People keep referring to it and no-one will say what it is.betfair,s cross matching software bot needs the 1 sec delay to be able to function, but i would also suggest several other large liquidity providing bots also don't have the 1 sec delay

Sorry but that's rubbish. The cross matching software just gives different punters betting very different outcomes the best price against other punters. Easiest to see how it works on 2-runner markets, like tennis for example.

Sep 30, 2019 -- 6:05PM, DixiEnormus wrote:

if the cross matching does not need the 1 sec,

What about a level playing field?

How can you ever have a `level playing field' in an area like `live' betting.

Those who pull up the substantial costs and get off their arses to attend the event will always have an edge and rightly so.

Having refrained from IR other than putting up insurance on bets the liquidity is dictated as much as the oncourse books are allowed via the big entities and having a huge effect on SPs?

Here is where we can and do profit,in case of any doubt against the digitals.Anyone who thinks this is still peer to peer should try swimming from Brittannia pier to Brighton and being sponsored at 1p per mile and being laid on the way by a bot.

Pier to Pier............the only ones making any money are Steve and very few others in this digitalis age,they desrve the reward for the risk and long term they will prosper as there numbers diminish.

One second in the IR market is a lifetime and if you rely on a BOT.......more fool you?

Typing over you CC and not my field but you hit a home run.

Sep 30, 2019 -- 9:45PM, Captain carnage wrote:

How can you ever have a `level playing field' in an area like `live' betting.Those who pull up the substantial costs and get off their arses to attend the event will always have an edge and rightly so.

Cant have it all ways then, no problems.

i konkerr with the captain..

There will also be have an advantage on others for all sorts of reasons but there should be no reason to have massive advantages built in (such as Sky racing TV pictures being a decade(a little exaggeration) behind live.

What drivel from capt
Essentially saying cheating is justified as long as you pay for the privilege and go to great lengths to do it.

its dire again today betfair might as well shut down the in running on the ponies its over unless you is on track

Those who pull up the substantial costs and get off their arses to attend the event will always have an edge and rightly so.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and what about those wonderful human beings who help old grannies across the road on a daily basis (otherwise known as $**** of the earth types who would gladly rob their granny of their pension book money) who buy illicit pictures which no doubt goes to very suspect individuals fuelling the black market economy...

is it 'rightly so' that these people have 'an edge' also...???

no doubt a few of the lowlifes who do it will say yes...

s...
c...
u...
m...

its the track players and the facetime thats killed off the liquidity with some help from the pc charge as well, a level field and it would of never been like it is now

The vast majority on facetime are no better than haf a second ahead ov live video on sky racing tracks
and just a little over half a second of rtv live video. I know people that have facetime and only use it for the irish.
They have facetime at rtv and sky tracks but the gap is that minimal they just use live video instead as the picture is far better.
Trust me the facetime bar Ireland isn't that much of an advantage unless youre a select few top of the tree.
Home pics have never been better bar atr red button many moons ago.

There was also 230k matched that last race at southwell in play, 330k pre race, 560 total. 230k not bad imo.
Ayr race 7f 240k pre race, 115k in play, 355k total. So over half the money matched is inplay.

They inplay matched figures aint bad, it's the pre race that's way down imo.

The game has got harder because the players have got better and the mug money is far less.
There could be improvements ofc with speed and liquidity, but all this game finished is nonsense imo, it's just harder than it
once was. The fittest will survive

Just adding a bit of reality to the thread. Still plenty to be had chaps

422k pre race sedge, 646k total, 224k in play

again 224k in play for a 2 mile race on a cold Tuesday afternoon race at sedgfield not bad. Pre race way down as of few years ago,
in running going by they figures, holding up

220k down to the x matcher ...

Xmatcher nothing new, been there for years, feels like years anyway

@Delta

"220k down to the x matcher"

That sounds unlikely if not mathematically impossible - but would it be a bad thing if it were true?

250k matched in play 2m4 race there at sedgfield.

Some might argue it's getting better!

certainly not me.

matched amount is a red herring to an extent james...

it's about how much is matched at certain prices...

not about how much is simply matched...

if you want to look at the in running liquidity levels the best way to to it is look at the extremes...

1.01 to 1.3 and 100 to 1000...

these levels are simply awful now and like i keep saying getting worse slowly but surely...

i'm pleased you are doing well coz i think you only use LV and you deserve to do well...

I'm not saying it's great or that hibby, and agree it has been and could be a lot better

I just don't agree with all the doom and gloom, still plenty to be had. I honestly just think players have got better and that was always going to happen.

that race there, 570k pre race southwell there, bot off because of late non runner?? 776k total so 205k matched in play
with possibly the betfair bot/x matcher switched off due to the late non runner

205k still good imo. Get a lot of it matched at short odds, but not that much, quick calculation about 40k matched 1.3 downwards
that's still 165k matched during the race on a poor 1m7 hurdle race at southwell on a boring Tuesday afternoon



1.01            £8,611       
1.02            £2,946       
1.03            £5,228       
1.04            £1,327       
1.05            £1,180       
1.06            £560       
1.07            £360       
1.08            £2,028       
1.09            £88       
1.1            £1,127       
1.11            £1,354       
1.12            £2,006       
1.13            £880       
1.14            £471       
1.15            £260       
1.16            £25       
1.17            £144       
1.18            £611       
1.19            £154       
1.2            £36       
1.21            £8       
1.22            £812       
1.23            £163       
1.24            £160       
1.26            £341       
1.27            £3       
1.28            £60       
1.29            £61       
1.3            £460       
1.31            £513       
1.32            £3,998

Buggs and Happy lololol.

Are you still recovering from the Labour 'Communist' party conference last week.

4 day weeks, people getting paid the same for staying at home all day compared to those that get up hours earlier, drive for hours, drive back for hours.

Its just not fair that humans use initiative, skill and hard work to make money.

Its not fair that some punters can afford timeform or Racing TV, or have a mate who workd for Gosden.

Its no fair my mate is miles better at football and gets paid 100k a week. I play on a sunday and should get a % of his pay
not have to pay my 5 pound subs.

james...

here is an ALARMING stat for you...

and one i'm sure plenty of folk will find funny...

my staking plan is now 20 TIMES what it was in 2013...

the reason being prices disappear faster now than they did in 2013...

therefore to win roughly the same amount of £ i had to make it pay when i did actually get matched (which is pretty rare these days tbh)...

and i know what some folk will say...

adapt or die and all that stuff...

which is fair comment...

but i'm just giving you the stats as i see it and those that relate to me...

that is how much in running liquidity has declined for me since 2013...

you must admit that is a pretty damning fact james...??

absolutely no idea what all that has to do with the point i made tbh CC...

good bluster tho.

Im getting on a bit now and I would say about 90% of the peope I have come across with a strong work ethic and positive frame of mind ie. Doers - have done a lot better than the ones who moan, complain about things being unfair despite them patently not being and who are talkers an not doers.

Its just not fair that humans use initiative, skill and hard work to make money.

If any of that post was related to the act of purchasing places on course in order to gain an advantage then you are clearly mistaken since all other options listed are available equally to all but places on course are limited to a select number which is tantamount to insider trading

therefore nowt to do with ability

What were your stakes in 2013 if you don't mind me asking hibby?

I'm guessing you were one of the bigger players?

I can see why players who played huge stakes will be noticing it, they'll be the first ones to go imo
tbh, ive never been a big stakes player as such hence I don't really see that much of a difference, smaller steaks here to win big rather
than big to win small except on the odd occasion, each to their own and all that

stakes ffs

you are doing yourself an injustice to say you are small fry james...

i've seen your stakes in a few stewards markets and i wouldn't say that was small fry at all...

i'd rather not get in to details but i can assure you the 20 times thingy is absolutely true...

in all honesty the older you get the more your reactions get slower and slower so i think that has a bit to do with it also...

as always it's a combination of things but i can only speak of my own experiences and it is clear that it is very hard now and i can only see it getting harder and harder...

and judging by the comments on this thread i don't think i'm the only person in that boat...

No problem mate. Hopefully youre still getting something even if not the same as 6 years ago



tbh my stewards stakes are 10 x my normal click in play and I'll not be getting involved in them again
after that Chelmsford scandal!

Did you see the one the following evening between the 2 Godolphin horses? Much worse yet they never even called one let alone
throw one out, ridiculous

aye...

i commented on it at the time james...

shocking on both races imv...

at the end of the day nowt lasts forever and i don't mind admitting that cheltenham 2019 was as far as i thought in running would last so it's lasted longer than i thought...

one thing i would say is that anyone starting NOW is asking for trouble...

i'm glad i started when i did and probably finish when i will (probably not too long in to the future now)...

coz i've actually got bored of Betfair and bored of horse racing in general...

and i've just bought the complete collection of The Vicar of Dibley so i want to watch that at some stage in the near future...

Enjoy!!

still not finished my George Gently collection so it'll probably be the end of the year before i get around to it tbh...

and then i've got my Roy Keane book to fit in along the way...

all go here james.

james half a second from facetime to rtv uk  tracks your mate must had been on the slow connection its a good 0.8 and about 1.2 on the irish tracks , the big hitters are on the direct feed the smaller players are happy to play less and be on the pyramid feed , maybe thats only 0.5

said just over half sec rtv buggs, .6 rtv lv to stream majority, .8 step up pyramid

some tracks maybe 1 second depending on connection etc

sky lv tracks not worth switching the streams on unless top of tree, wdnt play them for free

As i said before Facetime will die when the Irish speed up

the irish HAS speeded up...

not completely but certainly partially...

and btw...

speeded up on RTV still ain't as fast as it SHOULD be imv...

are you listening thebootman...???

walofs

irish will still be at least 1 sec behind the facetime its too much its not as if your playing a handful of players the majority are on the pyramid they cant survive on ruk pics

bugs people will leave price will go up and wont be worth the overheads even for the ones getting it first hand

Irish i/r is laughable yesterday was a prime example the 3:40 at Roscommon Mountainmore and The Big Galloper were both heavily odds on at the same time  why would you bother watching on rtv giving money to the sharks

Oct 1, 2019 -- 3:39PM, Deltâ wrote:

220k down to the x matcher ...

x-matcher is the biggest red herring going. It's still matching person to person and if anything only helps increase liquidity as well as give people a fairer price than pre x-matcher. Perhaps, Betfair skim a few pennies off the top when the prices don't quite corollate perfectly but it'll only be offset by the drop in commission from those with shark prices before its existence.

Article today in the Telegraph, p16 sports pages re. TPD GPS data. I'm not a subscriber but if someone could post it on here, much obliged.

Pre race and in running both in a downward spiral.

Feb 24, 2025 -- 3:30PM, swiftynifty wrote:

Article today in the Telegraph, p16 sports pages re. TPD GPS data. I'm not a subscriber but if someone could post it on here, much obliged.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-daily-telegraph-sport/20250224/281732685221557?srsltid=AfmBOoqwauRkkP6iY8glZUGLSIhu3RLfikHhoUV-Mb37Ju60p1Pn89_Q

You should be able to read it on that link

KJ, that's brilliant, did you load this up yourself? Cheers.

From RAscot  a horses IR chance will be displayed in percentage terms during the race. Good luck with that.

howard, I'm assuming that's what is at the bottom on ATR nowadays?

although that must surely have its price factored in, plenty of no-hopers will be throwing out positive data until the taps are turned on.

i use to speak to a guy on the gruss forum , he was a programmer who was also a market maker for in running . he use to have a few robots programmed to place lay bets into the market . he was a big PC payer , never watched the races , but quit betfair a couple of years after the drones came in . he said he couldn't make it pay after drones came in and was actually losing because he got picked off too easily , where before drones there was more volatility in the market as everyone had the same pictures, even if some people had a few seconds advantage .

I've watched races at tracks where the GPS has given the wrong result( position at finish, lengths ahead etc),more than once . It doesn't happen that often but i have seen it more than once.

However the prices were correct at all times, in other words the prices were appropriate for the in play scenario  etc..

have the drones been around that long?

i saw gps about 20 years ago but it went missing. would have been handy then but less so now

they have been around for over 6-7 years from memory .

price change now b4 you see the action.

possible edge laying horses that kick on too early then ?

I don't take ATR swifty.

SSR now

which channel will show this at Ascot then , ITV?  or the SSR feed on live video?

I would guess none of 'em  isn't this a computer thing that will be linked to software ?

you mean on the TPD link only? they may show it on SSR but it's meaningless if it's 10 secs behind when you see it! It may very well be meaningless anyway, no doubt Angus would be all over it, pretty much what he's been boring on about for months anyway (post race)