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onthejim
30 Jan 19 09:19
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Date Joined: 13 Dec 06
| Topic/replies: 706 | Blogger: onthejim's blog
Badsworth Boy only 7th, the’re having a laugh, surely ought to be number 1, Dickinson quoted as saying ,best horse he ever trained, very interested to find out the six rated ahead of him!
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Report salmon spray January 30, 2019 10:32 AM GMT
Are there really 50 that could be called great ?
Report differentdrum January 30, 2019 12:23 PM GMT
Badsworth Boy was discussed on an Altior thread a few weeks ago. Possibly after the Tingle Creek. It was far from obvious from those views that Badsworth Boy should be number one.

Anyone able to put up the full list of 50. Useful in relation to above and might provide a few memories and discussion?
Report Zsa_Zsa_Gabors_Leg January 30, 2019 12:28 PM GMT
#1 = Flyingbolt
Report salmon spray January 30, 2019 12:50 PM GMT
Apparently the RP is publishing it from Monday.
I looked at a list of Champion Chase winners and counted about 12,perhaps 14 that could reasonably be called "great",which includes Flyingbolt and Crisp who were not really 2m specialists. Perhaps there were a couple more who didn't win it. Might be three or four before 1959,I wouldn't really know but most good horses were aimed at the GN then so not many really good specialist 2 milers I would guess ( The first great two-miler I saw was Fortria who would probably have won it 4 times but was twice aimed at the much more prestigious/valuable Gold Cup ).
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:04 PM GMT
I am surprised he is not even lower.

There appears to be a view that great two mile chasers either lived next door to himself or an invention of the last 26 years.

The racing media eulogise Sprinter Sacre , Master Minded and Moscow Flyer to name but three ......none of then won three QM chases , none won them all by at least 10 lengths under hands and heels and none won one by a distance.

Moscow Flyer tipped up on occasion as did BB.
MAster Minded won a QM by 17 lengths and was a given the most ludicrous rating (until 2018 Betfair Chase)  , what was the 1983 QM distance win over the previous years winner worth ?

The fact that none of the greats I mention managed it shows how difficult it is to remain the best for 3 years , and BB was as difficult to keep fit at the end as any others.

The trainer stating he was his best  not.......Silver Buck , Bregawn , Wayward Lad , is the view I believe.
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:06 PM GMT
The six above will be FlyingBolt , Desert Orchid , Master Minded , Sprinter Sacre , Hilly Way and Moscow Flyer I imagine.
Report salmon spray January 30, 2019 1:08 PM GMT
It's difficult to argue Badsworth Boy was better than Flyingbolt tbh,although I think the latter was actually better over further. BB was certainly one of those I thought could be called "great" but I also included Mster Minded though I quite agree his rating being ludicrous.
Report onthejim January 30, 2019 1:08 PM GMT
Do you mean he ought to be rated better than 7th or worse IE 18th Sixtosix? I disagree with Phil Smiths statement in the same article that “competition then was not quite as deep as it is now”!!
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:10 PM GMT
Higher than 7th .

competition then was not quite as deep as it is now”

Neither was it for Istabraq , but nobody doubts that 3 time hurdle champ.
Report salmon spray January 30, 2019 1:11 PM GMT
Dunkirk rather than Hilly Way I would think. Crisp is awkward as his best ever race was over 4.5 miles though he was a pretty decent 2 miler as well.
Report onthejim January 30, 2019 1:14 PM GMT
Does anyone know what position ,if not still to come that Pearlyman occupied?
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:14 PM GMT
Crisp is more famous for his 28 furlong second place , agreed.
Pendil  too was in the list , few would regard him as a 2 miler ,ONe Man  , I think , only tried the distance once.

Another oddity ...... Noddy's Ryde was 20 places higher than Bobsline. How this could be argued I have no idea other than potential .....which is just that , not fact.
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:15 PM GMT
erm 36 furlong second place.Grin
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:15 PM GMT
Pearlyman was 15.
Report onthejim January 30, 2019 1:17 PM GMT
Thank you , agree that Noddys Ryde must have been rated on potential.
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:19 PM GMT
They placed Altior at 8 , very difficult to be accurate , as his story has not been completed yet.
Report elise January 30, 2019 1:26 PM GMT
would u be able to show the top 50 so far please 626 if you have a copy?
Report ashleigh January 30, 2019 1:26 PM GMT
will post the list.
Report elise January 30, 2019 1:27 PM GMT
just wondering how much of it is ratings, or whether repeated success, specialist 2 miler or fans favourite makes much difference
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:28 PM GMT
I imagine both.
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:29 PM GMT
Notable omissions I can think of have been  , Little Bay , Rathgorman , Chinrullah
Report elise January 30, 2019 1:29 PM GMT
would you have ss above fb as a specialist 2miler?
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:31 PM GMT
I cannot comment on FB  , before my time .

He will be number one I imagine ,as some think he had the potential to beat himself , won an Irish National and to put the top hat on it was the 2 mile champ and champion hurdle runner up in one festival.
Report onthejim January 30, 2019 1:34 PM GMT
Re Smiths statement about level of completion , Dickinson said in today’s article “When Badsworth Boy won in 1983 he beat seven horses who had won 102 races between them including two previous winners of the race in Drumgora and Rathgorman” , just the equivalent of 35l in today’s calculations according to Robert Earnshaw, Dickinson conceded that Flyingbolt May have been his superior ,but only him!
Report onthejim January 30, 2019 1:35 PM GMT
Above should say “competition”.
Report foxy January 30, 2019 1:35 PM GMT
In my time sprinter sacre edges out Moscow flyer.
Report ashleigh January 30, 2019 1:39 PM GMT
50 bobsline
49 captain conan
48 god's own
47 finian's rainbow
46 buck house
45 dodging bullets
44 somersby
43 nickname
42 special tiara
41 royal relief
40 katabatic
39 twist magic
38 direct route
37 big zeb
36 skymas
35 edredon bleu
34 deep sensation
33 un de sceaux
32 simonsig
31 noddy's ride   
30 waterloo boy
29 dudley
28 sizing europe
27 martha's son
26 klairon davis
25 voy por ustedes
24 sire de grugy
23 well chief
22 anaglogs daughter
21 barnbrook again
20 crisp
19 fortria
18 remittance man
17 flagship uberalles
16 tingle creek
15 pearlyman
14 douvan
13 azertyuiop
12 pendil
11 one man
10 viking flagship
9 kauto star
8 altior
7 badsworth boy

final 6 still to be published
Report elise January 30, 2019 1:39 PM GMT
cheers ash, appreciated
Report onthejim January 30, 2019 1:42 PM GMT
Like Sixtwosix suggested, there are quite a number in there that “ great” seems to be stretching the meaning of the word!
Report ashleigh January 30, 2019 1:42 PM GMT
badsworth boy would be in my top 3,
douvan should not be as high as 14, compared to viking flagship,pendil,and tingle creek.
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 1:47 PM GMT
Flying Bolt , Sprinter Sacre , Dunkirk , Moscow Flyer , Master Minded , Desert Orchid .....the order I am expecting.
Report duffy January 30, 2019 1:54 PM GMT
Captian Conan?Crazy
Report salmon spray January 30, 2019 1:55 PM GMT
Kauto Star is an odd inclusion. I know he had good form at 2 miles but back in the day so did a lot of stayers as most novice chases were over 2m. Salmon Spray ( not that I am biased ) ran up a sequence and was only put back over hurdles when he got slaughtered by Flyingbolt. Would have been better than a few in the lowere reaches of that lot.
Report 1st time poster January 30, 2019 1:58 PM GMT
brought up on badsworth boy might be the auld rose tainted glasses but seem to remember plenty of small uncompetitive fields for ch chase in those days ,and even in Moscow flyer/azertiup days we never seemed to get the great head to heads someone always underperformed. fell etc,etc,whilst although might not be all time greats,viking flagship,direct route,peralyman era all seemed to turn up run their race
the year Moscow fell and azertiup won what was the name of that lunatic horse I think owned by fellow looney john knox that was absolutely cantering coming down the hill,ended up running at 3 miles,looked like winning everything at sometine in his races but ended up winning little ,ued to change stables twice a month, Laugh
Report 1st time poster January 30, 2019 2:01 PM GMT
said it before on here but ch chase flat out 2 miles ,fazst low jumping was my cup of tea and although didn't win ch ch,my fav was I,m a driver trained by Dickenson ridden by tommy carmody, when he got it right and you,d backed him no better sight than him flying round
Report elise January 30, 2019 2:03 PM GMT
did u mean venn ottery?
Report 1st time poster January 30, 2019 2:06 PM GMT
used to hate commentators [ simon holt ] going on about horses giving fences 2 feet,still remember them banging on about fondmort giving the last 6ft in a race at chelt but against the likes of azertiup at his best would have lost 6 lengths,slick ,fast low,risk and rerward,not big scopey horse jumping high,good example in a horse technique for whatever reason injury, temprement, etc is MITE BITE, gone from low ,flat fast jumping to struggling to jumping straight and getting over instead of making lengths losing lengths at his fences
Report sparrow January 30, 2019 2:06 PM GMT
I would be interested to know where you guys would place Tingle Creek in this list.
Report acey deucy January 30, 2019 2:07 PM GMT
The paper taking up loads of space with Garbage like this...Top 10 maybe but come on.Plain
Report 1st time poster January 30, 2019 2:08 PM GMT
that's the one elsie, commentator at chelts wetting himself when he was cruising down the hill ended up getting beat miles
Report elise January 30, 2019 2:09 PM GMT
oli carter, got sent to pn for a while
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 2:10 PM GMT
I too splutter at Captain Conan being in the list , but not winners of the big race at the festival.

If he is the list ...... Latolomne should be too .
Report elise January 30, 2019 2:14 PM GMT
i'd have put ei ei in the list just for sheer guts
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 2:17 PM GMT
Venn Ottery coming down the hill pulling double double akin to One Man was surreal for a few strides.
Report elise January 30, 2019 2:18 PM GMT
that horse got killed when carter insisted it ran and the trainer couldn't convince him otherwise
Report duffy January 30, 2019 2:20 PM GMT
Sound Man should be in the list, two time winner of the Tingle Creek and a bold jumping front runner.
Report 1st time poster January 30, 2019 2:31 PM GMT
wheres remittance man on list he falls into the low flat jumping category
what was the irish horse that needed it heavy, was it called nickname,wasnt he a 2 miler
Report 1st time poster January 30, 2019 2:36 PM GMT
seem to think the races at chelt are changing ,30 years ago missing a fence or hurdle usualy spelt the end of winning ch chase, or ch hurdle but maybe because we don't generaly  good quick ground these days, I think what happens between the jumps is a lot more important these days
Report ashleigh January 30, 2019 2:42 PM GMT
nu 43 nickname, yes needed the ground bottomless.
Report duffy January 30, 2019 2:56 PM GMT
Remittance Man no. 18
Report sixtwosix January 30, 2019 3:25 PM GMT
And another thing .......wasn't Badsworth Boy a magnificent looking horse.
Report mukdahan January 30, 2019 4:09 PM GMT
Quick question which other two horses apart from Badsworth Boy ran in four champion chases in the 80s
Report dunlaying January 30, 2019 5:33 PM GMT
I think 626 has a mole .
Report differentdrum January 30, 2019 8:14 PM GMT
Thanks for list.

Plenty at the top end not exactly what I would call 'great' - Captain Conan, Finian's Rainbow, Gods Own, Dodging Bullets, Somersby, Twist Magic and probably a few others. A top 30 would have been better.

Who is Dudley?

I think Simonsig and Tingle Creek are too high. Simonsig didn't do enough and Tingle Creek couldn't do it where it mattered most.

I am not arguing with Crisp and Pendil but other than being wide margin winners of a Champion Chase and Arkle, I am not sure what else of substance they achieved at the minimum trip.

Much as you love him Desert Orchid will be too high for a similar reason to Tingle Creek.

I would have Altior higher on the basis that few, if any, of these would have had the ability to win a Champion Hurdle and that's before you consider that nothing has really been able to get really close to him over fences.
Report ribero1 January 30, 2019 10:11 PM GMT
Dunkirk no 6.
Report parispike January 30, 2019 11:14 PM GMT
I’m with Acey Deucy. The Post seems to devote an inordinate amount of space to this sort of stuff. Presumably it’s cheaper than proper journalism and requires less effort!?

Can you imagine The Times or similar being constantly stuffed with sepia tinted stuff from the past?

It’s supposed to be a NEWSpaper ffs.
Report themightymac January 30, 2019 11:40 PM GMT
1. Flyingbolt
2. Desert Orchid
3. Sprinter Sacre
4. Moscow Flyer
5. Killiney
6. Master Minded
Report themightymac January 30, 2019 11:40 PM GMT
Hilly Way should be on the list.
Report duffy January 31, 2019 12:57 AM GMT
One Man is on the list more for his 3 mile achievements and from the fondness he was held in publicly. He beat a past it VF and KD in his CC win, Ask Tom was favourite!!! Ask Tom !!!
Report asparagus January 31, 2019 7:34 AM GMT
Altior should clearly be higher than 8th. if he gets beat the next 3 or 4 times 8th is ok, but currently he's unbeaten over fences, winning all of them easily. He also had the capability to win a Champion hurdle and would also be fav for a king george. He's different league to Master Minded for example,  who got beat a few times by relatively decent horses but not greats.
Report in hell January 31, 2019 7:59 AM GMT
No 6 - Dunkirk
Report foxy January 31, 2019 8:20 AM GMT
Dessie was beaten in the two champion chases he ran in suprised he looks like coming in so highly,mind you it’s only a bit of harmless interest.
Report Davros January 31, 2019 10:23 AM GMT
Martha's Son as always underrated, perhaps because of his number of starts.  But you can't put him behind Viking Flagship surely.
Report 1st time poster January 31, 2019 1:26 PM GMT
like comparing apples and pears but you,d like to think that some horses of the past would take advantage of altiors few flat spots
Report duffy January 31, 2019 1:47 PM GMT
Agreed, Martha's Son is too low as is Pearlyman, whereas you've got Sire De Grugy too high, he she be holding hands with Dodging Bullets back in the 40's at best.
Report duffy January 31, 2019 1:47 PM GMT
he should be
Report asparagus January 31, 2019 2:21 PM GMT
For me Altiro's flat spot doesn't really exist. Just once on sticky ground at Cheltenham after an interrupted prep. Not really seen a proper flat spot apart from that as far as i recall. Sprinter Sacre would almost certainly have had him off the bridle 3 out but if Altior was within 3 or 4 lengths of him at the last at tracks such as Sandown or Cheltenham he'd probably win. A close call. For me Altior v a horse such as Masterminded isn't even close. Masterminded was always overrated on the back of a Champion Chase win in a race which to a large extent fell apart.
Report cyclops January 31, 2019 2:31 PM GMT
Such a historically weak division of the sport that comparisons across the ages are particularly hard.

I can't remember a time when there's ever been more than three or four truly top class practitioners at the trip. Flyingbolt will be, and should be, number one, and nothing ever got near him at the trip (or any other trip before illness struck), but his genius was more measurable over longer distances.

mighty mac - Killiney? How many races did he run in over 2 miles? Certainly none after his novice days as he was sadly killed. Would not have thought, unless my memory fails, that he could possibly be anywhere on the list, despite his obvious potential.
Report ashleigh February 1, 2019 7:23 AM GMT
NU 5 MOSCOW FLYER.
Report foxy February 1, 2019 9:26 AM GMT
Which just goes to show it’s just a bit of fun
Report sixtwosix February 1, 2019 10:32 AM GMT
The insanity continues , we are now to believe Master Minded was better than Moscow Flyer was.
The ludicrous mark given for beating an under par Voy Por Ustedes counts more than the proven quality of beating two quality horses Well Chief and Azertyuiop on more than one occasion.
A 17 length win .....but Badsworth Boy beat 2 ex champs by 35 lengths .........
I look forward to a 3 mile list featuring Arkle at number one and Bristol Du Mai at number two for slogging through the mud to beat Tea for Two and company in 2017.

I don't think for a minute Master Minded would have troubled stablemate Kauto Star over 2 miles.

Having has yet another moan ,  I do think it is a great feature and have saved all the pullouts to reminisce over .
Report foxy February 1, 2019 11:27 AM GMT
A point that may or may not be relevant but is never mentioned is that master minded won that champion chase on the Thursday the race fell apart and vpu ran well below form as proven at aintree 3 weeks later,it’s possible horses were ready to race Wednesday and perhaps some of them were affected by the 24 hour delay
Report equine flew February 1, 2019 12:05 PM GMT
flagship uberalles (17) v Direct Route (38)

Direct Route was a far superior horse
Report isleham February 1, 2019 12:50 PM GMT
surely a horse is not so minutely primed for a race that he deteriorates in 24 hours
Report foxy February 1, 2019 12:54 PM GMT
Probably not isleham but it’s just a thought I have regarding that day I accept it’s unlikely but not impossible.
Report foxy February 1, 2019 12:56 PM GMT
Bobsline 50 noddy Ryde 31 an great Arkle won by bobsline.
Report jamilla14 February 1, 2019 3:56 PM GMT
The best 2 mile chaser at the peak of his powers at Cheltenham was BADSWORTH BOY.
The best 2 mile chaser at the peak of his powers away from Cheltenham was TINGLE CREEK.
Report The Headmaster February 1, 2019 4:31 PM GMT
Some of you are being very unkind to Master Minded. At the peak of his powers the horse was an absolute machine.  Plenty saying his CC "fell apart", bit odd how the 2nd, 3rd and 4th have virtually run to the pound on ratings.  And not sure why the Melling has to come into it, that isn't a 2m race.  He slaughtered VPU at Cheltenham and pumped 5 lengths into him in the Game Spirit on the bridle, basically making a very good horse look like a low grade handicapper.
Report ashleigh February 2, 2019 6:57 AM GMT
NU 4 MASTER MINDED.
Report ashleigh February 3, 2019 7:31 AM GMT
the final 3.
3rd desert orchid
2nd flyingbolt
1ST SPRINTER SACRE
Report onthejim February 3, 2019 9:00 AM GMT
What?, I refer the honourable gentlemen to Michael Dickinsons quote!!
Report differentdrum February 3, 2019 10:57 AM GMT
I think some of this is more about 'stories' than anything else. As I said everyone loves Desert Orchid but he wasn't a superstar at this distance. Sprinter Sacre made that comeback but at his best was he really better than Altior? The ratings might indicate that but I suspect one is inflated and the other an under estimate.
Report muse February 3, 2019 11:16 AM GMT
differentdrum,  I couldn't agree more.  Altior is one of the best NH horses I have ever seen.  It is impossible to be certain, but in a virtual Sprinter Sacre VS Altior match I would want to be with Altior over 2 miles at any UK racecourse.

Clearly though, any list like this is neccesarily subjective, and journalistic priorities like good 'stories' are going to come first.
Report sixtwosix February 3, 2019 11:31 AM GMT
Sprinter Sacre did look as good as any 2 mile chaser ever as prior to the heart issue.
It would be interesting to hear Mr De Boinville's opinion of Sprinter Sacre and Altior.

I imagine it would be whether or not Sprinter Sacre's superior travelling and effortless jumping technique could get Altior on the floor or in trouble.
If not the power packed finish Altior has would be too much for any two miler imo.

Hard to agree that Desert Orchid should be so high.
Gold Cup , Irish Grand National and Whitbread success , but failure every time he tried 2 miles at the festival.
Report Davros February 3, 2019 11:39 AM GMT
It's not a greatest 2 miler list it's a reality tv vote.  Disgusting for a trade paper.
Report ged February 3, 2019 12:11 PM GMT
Cheltenham wasn't Desert Orchid's course. He jumped right-handed there. He got away with it in the Gold Cup because the ground was heavy so the pace was slow and his jumping was fairly straight, but in his Champion Chases he lost at least 10 lengths jumping right. Just as Aintree wasn't Badsworth Boy's course. He fell twice there - both times in the opening race on the Grand National card - and nearly killed himself, and Dickinson wouldn't run him there again.
Report Wessex February 7, 2019 11:28 PM GMT
If Desert Orchid, who failed repeatedly in Champion Chases, is No. 3, then Arkle should probably be No. 1 based on victories under enormous weights in the Mackeson etc. (2.5 miles I know but it would still have been best over 2 miles).  Both Flyingbolt and Badsworth Boy were much better than Sprinter Sacre.
Report salmon spray February 7, 2019 11:53 PM GMT
Arkle was actually beaten in what was I think the Massey-Ferguson,not the Mackeson. He was carrying 12-10 though and I agree with your substantive point.
Report ashleigh February 10, 2019 11:19 AM GMT
michael dickinson saying badsworth boy was the best horse he ever trained, and should have finished 2nd in the list behind flyingbolt.
Report jamilla14 February 10, 2019 1:58 PM GMT
ashleigh - if memory serves, Desert Orchid had his bum smacked more than once over 2 miles by Pearlyman.
Dessie came into his own once he was upped in trip to 3 miles at Kempton on Boxing Day in the King George.
Report EastLower Gooner February 10, 2019 3:06 PM GMT
Anyone remember my old favourite Rathgar Beau Love

Won me a fortune when he held on in a photo to beat Moscow. I believe it was the 1st time Moscow was beaten standing up
over fences.

Them was the old days on here.

Stuck with him that whole season in the belief he was good enough and had a big win in him.

Shame they went the Cathcart with him that season...he cane there cruising but his stamina ebbed away down to the lastz
Report EastLower Gooner February 10, 2019 3:08 PM GMT
Just an honourable mention btw
Report sixtwosix February 10, 2019 3:13 PM GMT
I recall Rathgar Beau beating MF in a photo , the first to beat him in a chase he stood up in.

As for Badsworth Boy , how anyone cannot be blown away by his 3 Cheltenham wins , I have no idea.

Effortless wins under hands and heels, speed ,string in the finish and his magnificent low jumping style ....yes it did cost him at Aintree and others.

If Mr D says he was the best , and he is imo the best jump trainer of my lifetime , so be it.
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