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Badsworth Boy only 7th, the’re having a laugh, surely ought to be number 1, Dickinson quoted as saying ,best horse he ever trained, very interested to find out the six rated ahead of him!
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Are there really 50 that could be called great ?
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Badsworth Boy was discussed on an Altior thread a few weeks ago. Possibly after the Tingle Creek. It was far from obvious from those views that Badsworth Boy should be number one.
Anyone able to put up the full list of 50. Useful in relation to above and might provide a few memories and discussion? |
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#1 = Flyingbolt
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Apparently the RP is publishing it from Monday.
I looked at a list of Champion Chase winners and counted about 12,perhaps 14 that could reasonably be called "great",which includes Flyingbolt and Crisp who were not really 2m specialists. Perhaps there were a couple more who didn't win it. Might be three or four before 1959,I wouldn't really know but most good horses were aimed at the GN then so not many really good specialist 2 milers I would guess ( The first great two-miler I saw was Fortria who would probably have won it 4 times but was twice aimed at the much more prestigious/valuable Gold Cup ). |
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I am surprised he is not even lower.
There appears to be a view that great two mile chasers either lived next door to himself or an invention of the last 26 years. The racing media eulogise Sprinter Sacre , Master Minded and Moscow Flyer to name but three ......none of then won three QM chases , none won them all by at least 10 lengths under hands and heels and none won one by a distance. Moscow Flyer tipped up on occasion as did BB. MAster Minded won a QM by 17 lengths and was a given the most ludicrous rating (until 2018 Betfair Chase) , what was the 1983 QM distance win over the previous years winner worth ? The fact that none of the greats I mention managed it shows how difficult it is to remain the best for 3 years , and BB was as difficult to keep fit at the end as any others. The trainer stating he was his best not.......Silver Buck , Bregawn , Wayward Lad , is the view I believe. |
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The six above will be FlyingBolt , Desert Orchid , Master Minded , Sprinter Sacre , Hilly Way and Moscow Flyer I imagine.
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It's difficult to argue Badsworth Boy was better than Flyingbolt tbh,although I think the latter was actually better over further. BB was certainly one of those I thought could be called "great" but I also included Mster Minded though I quite agree his rating being ludicrous.
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Do you mean he ought to be rated better than 7th or worse IE 18th Sixtosix? I disagree with Phil Smiths statement in the same article that “competition then was not quite as deep as it is now”!!
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Higher than 7th .
competition then was not quite as deep as it is now” Neither was it for Istabraq , but nobody doubts that 3 time hurdle champ. |
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Dunkirk rather than Hilly Way I would think. Crisp is awkward as his best ever race was over 4.5 miles though he was a pretty decent 2 miler as well.
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Does anyone know what position ,if not still to come that Pearlyman occupied?
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Crisp is more famous for his 28 furlong second place , agreed.
Pendil too was in the list , few would regard him as a 2 miler ,ONe Man , I think , only tried the distance once. Another oddity ...... Noddy's Ryde was 20 places higher than Bobsline. How this could be argued I have no idea other than potential .....which is just that , not fact. |
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erm 36 furlong second place.
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Pearlyman was 15.
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Thank you , agree that Noddys Ryde must have been rated on potential.
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They placed Altior at 8 , very difficult to be accurate , as his story has not been completed yet.
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would u be able to show the top 50 so far please 626 if you have a copy?
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will post the list.
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just wondering how much of it is ratings, or whether repeated success, specialist 2 miler or fans favourite makes much difference
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I imagine both.
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Notable omissions I can think of have been , Little Bay , Rathgorman , Chinrullah
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would you have ss above fb as a specialist 2miler?
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I cannot comment on FB , before my time .
He will be number one I imagine ,as some think he had the potential to beat himself , won an Irish National and to put the top hat on it was the 2 mile champ and champion hurdle runner up in one festival. |
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Re Smiths statement about level of completion , Dickinson said in today’s article “When Badsworth Boy won in 1983 he beat seven horses who had won 102 races between them including two previous winners of the race in Drumgora and Rathgorman” , just the equivalent of 35l in today’s calculations according to Robert Earnshaw, Dickinson conceded that Flyingbolt May have been his superior ,but only him!
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Above should say “competition”.
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In my time sprinter sacre edges out Moscow flyer.
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50 bobsline
49 captain conan 48 god's own 47 finian's rainbow 46 buck house 45 dodging bullets 44 somersby 43 nickname 42 special tiara 41 royal relief 40 katabatic 39 twist magic 38 direct route 37 big zeb 36 skymas 35 edredon bleu 34 deep sensation 33 un de sceaux 32 simonsig 31 noddy's ride 30 waterloo boy 29 dudley 28 sizing europe 27 martha's son 26 klairon davis 25 voy por ustedes 24 sire de grugy 23 well chief 22 anaglogs daughter 21 barnbrook again 20 crisp 19 fortria 18 remittance man 17 flagship uberalles 16 tingle creek 15 pearlyman 14 douvan 13 azertyuiop 12 pendil 11 one man 10 viking flagship 9 kauto star 8 altior 7 badsworth boy final 6 still to be published |
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cheers ash, appreciated
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Like Sixtwosix suggested, there are quite a number in there that “ great” seems to be stretching the meaning of the word!
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badsworth boy would be in my top 3,
douvan should not be as high as 14, compared to viking flagship,pendil,and tingle creek. |
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Flying Bolt , Sprinter Sacre , Dunkirk , Moscow Flyer , Master Minded , Desert Orchid .....the order I am expecting.
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Captian Conan?
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Kauto Star is an odd inclusion. I know he had good form at 2 miles but back in the day so did a lot of stayers as most novice chases were over 2m. Salmon Spray ( not that I am biased ) ran up a sequence and was only put back over hurdles when he got slaughtered by Flyingbolt. Would have been better than a few in the lowere reaches of that lot.
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brought up on badsworth boy might be the auld rose tainted glasses but seem to remember plenty of small uncompetitive fields for ch chase in those days ,and even in Moscow flyer/azertiup days we never seemed to get the great head to heads someone always underperformed. fell etc,etc,whilst although might not be all time greats,viking flagship,direct route,peralyman era all seemed to turn up run their race
the year Moscow fell and azertiup won what was the name of that lunatic horse I think owned by fellow looney john knox that was absolutely cantering coming down the hill,ended up running at 3 miles,looked like winning everything at sometine in his races but ended up winning little ,ued to change stables twice a month,  |
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said it before on here but ch chase flat out 2 miles ,fazst low jumping was my cup of tea and although didn't win ch ch,my fav was I,m a driver trained by Dickenson ridden by tommy carmody, when he got it right and you,d backed him no better sight than him flying round
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did u mean venn ottery?
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used to hate commentators [ simon holt ] going on about horses giving fences 2 feet,still remember them banging on about fondmort giving the last 6ft in a race at chelt but against the likes of azertiup at his best would have lost 6 lengths,slick ,fast low,risk and rerward,not big scopey horse jumping high,good example in a horse technique for whatever reason injury, temprement, etc is MITE BITE, gone from low ,flat fast jumping to struggling to jumping straight and getting over instead of making lengths losing lengths at his fences
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I would be interested to know where you guys would place Tingle Creek in this list.
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The paper taking up loads of space with Garbage like this...Top 10 maybe but come on.
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