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glentoby
07 Dec 18 20:22
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Date Joined: 12 Mar 06
| Topic/replies: 19,783 | Blogger: glentoby's blog
Should he win tomorrow and go to the Festival unbeaten between now and then and lift the Champion Chase?

Sprinter Sacre was awsome,Kauto Star and Dessie enduring and supremely tough and talented.I hope Altior does what NH hopes but will he ever be a "public" horse or achieve recognition as one of the greats? Even if he does what I hope he does I just get the feeling he will not get due recognition unless at some point he wins a KG or at least a Grade 1 away from the 2 mile division.
Pause Switch to Standard View ALTIOR.......where will he rank in...
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Report buddeliea December 8, 2018 8:43 AM GMT
Its possible Altior can go on to be talked about as one of the greats.
I think right now hes a very very good horse,the best 2m chaser around and had he stayed hurdling would be the best 2m hurdler around....probably is anyway judging on his supreme beating of B Dair.
So that aint bad at this stage of his career.
He also has possibly the best finishing ability I have ever seen from a 2m chaser,especially at Cheltenham.
He does have a flaw with this flat spot(so did Big Bucks)but it aint stopping this unbeaten run(so far!!)

Of course we never know what would have happened had Douvan not fell in the Champion Chase,but I have no doubt in my mind that Altior would have p1ssed past him.......definitely past his best is Douvan, as we saw  against UDS.


Comparing Altior with the greats?? Only time to do that fairly is when Altior finishes his career, as all the greats have done.

FWIW, I would have Sprinter,Badsworth and Remittance ahead of him as 2m chasers, but I may not when hes finished!!
Report buddeliea December 8, 2018 9:48 AM GMT
Sorry...forgot Pearlyman.
Report Ibrahima Sonko December 8, 2018 9:55 AM GMT
I think the flat spot is being exaggerated, Its not like Lil' Rockerfella's flat spots.

Everytime he has hit the winning line he has done going away. Maybe he could win over further but he is pretty good over the minimum. Sprinter Sacre was the best but Altior is on par with Viking FLagship, Remittance Man & Moscow Flyer....
Report Trident December 8, 2018 10:10 AM GMT
Sprinter Sacre, and Master Minded had cruising speed that ive ever seen. Altior I would never want to lay in any race. Heres a question...

Being out of the Derby winner High Chaparral, I believe the flat spots when he quickens again, leaves me to think he wouldnt want very soft ground.
Report Trident December 8, 2018 10:11 AM GMT
Reading back my comment doesnt make alot of sense. It was a long night finding it difficult this morning lolHappy
Report differentdrum December 8, 2018 10:16 AM GMT
Can't believe some of the horses he is being unfavourably compared with. I think people are looking through rose tinted. Remittance Man won one novice hurdle. He was a very good jumper but he wouldn't have had to pace to cope with a horse who could have won a Champion Hurdle. Ditto for Viking Flagship who was a decent battler but he was beaten plenty of times. Pearlyman progressed through handicaps and I think it was debatable as to what Badsworth Boy was beating.

Altior doesn't have to prove he is a great, he already is one. You don't fluke three comfortable wins at the Cheltenham Festival. Has any horse even got close to beating him over hurdles or fences? The fact that he finds a huge amount off the bridle is a big plus, not a negative as some people seem to infer when comparing him with the cruisers.
Report buddeliea December 8, 2018 10:33 AM GMT
Putting it that way drum, maybe he is a great already.
I just think, to be fair when comparing, we have to wait till hes finished his career.
Report Ibrahima Sonko December 8, 2018 11:29 AM GMT
Great replays on RUK

Sire Du Grugy Love
Report Nonaynever December 8, 2018 12:47 PM GMT
I'm a massive fan and agree with Differentdrum 100%. It's natural to be drawn to the strong travelling types, Sprinter Sacre took the breath away at times, but as good as he was I'd have Altior over him all day long.

If he's anywhere near his best I think he'll win today against a very good field, probably in his usual style, win another CC and when he's finished be looked on as the best chaser we've seen since Kauto Star.
Report Tiger Tiger December 8, 2018 1:17 PM GMT
Agree with differendum, 'Altior doesn't have to prove he is a great, he already is one'.

I'm a massive fan too, couldn't resist the 1.76 on here earlier. His opponents today are no mugs to say the least and he will have to be at his best to win. Soft ground is not a problem and whatever happens it will be a true result.
Report Tiger Tiger December 8, 2018 3:05 PM GMT
Brilliant.
Report Tiger Tiger December 8, 2018 3:09 PM GMT
You wont find any 11/8 for the CC now.
Report handtorofe December 8, 2018 3:11 PM GMT
A true champion hard to pick fault in him
Report deadbrain59 December 8, 2018 3:13 PM GMT
3lb in hand did it wellCool
Report differentdrum December 8, 2018 3:14 PM GMT
I suspect he wasn't in love with those conditions but the only danger was the crazy jump at the second.

Madness the comment from Millman in the RUK studio to suggest he needed to step up in trip to be a 'true champion'.
Report zzzorro December 8, 2018 3:18 PM GMT
Indeed.

You wont even get todays price for the Champion Chase now.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves December 8, 2018 3:55 PM GMT
Everything about him says All-Time Great - his flawless record, his consecutive Festival wins, even his appearance. What a looker he is!

But ... could he give Panto Prince 22 lb, get headed at the last, yet somehow rally to get up on the line? This is the problem with judging today's jumpers by the standards of previous generations. They're no longer asked the horse-racing equivalent of 'but could he do it on a wet Tuesday night in Stoke?'
Report differentdrum December 8, 2018 4:06 PM GMT
I was lucky enough to be there on that day.

Yes, that's why I mentioned comparing non handicap horses. He might be able to do it but he will never be asked the question.

When the comparisons are made to Arkle all that we really have to offer in more recent years are Desert Orchid and Denman, albeit only a couple of times. Kauto Star isn't on the same list. There are just too many opt-outs and trainers are going to use them to prolong the careers of their stars.
Report Tiger Tiger December 8, 2018 4:11 PM GMT
You dont take your Rolls Royce to the corner shop.
Report differentdrum December 8, 2018 4:17 PM GMT
In Arkle's day they had no choice. I think it is a shame that things have changed so much.
Report BornToWin December 8, 2018 4:23 PM GMT
When he is done I expect he will be number one.

An absolute weapon.
Report impossible123 December 8, 2018 4:39 PM GMT
Altior is a very, very good horse, and certainly better than Douvan who avoided him throughout his racing career. But Dessie was a legend, and Altior is not there yet.
Report glentoby December 8, 2018 10:43 PM GMT
Apologies for returning to this thread as the horse answered plenty of questions and can take care of himself.Worth noting though that some so called experts still question his status,as predicted/suspected when posting the thread.

Are they right to say he has to do something outside the 2 mile division to prove himself a great? Nobody ever said Usain Bolt had to take on Mo at 5,000m,or did they? Pointless anyway making comparisons at this stage but as it stands I have seen few with the potential he has to scale heights as yet not even considered by connections or at least not voiced.

Could he win the KG? Absolutely,apart from exceptional speed he has stamina,not often you get both in a Chaser.

Won my side bet that Ruby would echo my opening post live on TV!!!CoolWink
Report eric_morris December 8, 2018 10:57 PM GMT
I think the 2 milers will end up as this though Altior needs to win in March first..

Badsworth Boy, Moscow Flyer , Altior, Sprinter Sacre, Masterminded

Badsworth and Moscow were in goldern eras for 2 milers.

Cant have Remittance Man (was there when he was beaten by Waterloo Boy), Flagship Uberalles, Viking Flagship in the same bracket as the above.
Report eric_morris December 8, 2018 11:08 PM GMT
..was there when he fell behind Viking Flagship. Long time ago.
Report salmon spray December 8, 2018 11:09 PM GMT
Fortria won the Champion Chase twice and then finished 2nd twice in the Gold Cup ( to Mandarin and Mill House ). Altior could at least go for the King George.
Report chavman December 8, 2018 11:09 PM GMT
SS in his prime would have cantered all over those eric,although hypothetical views will always differ.Happy
Report glentoby December 8, 2018 11:09 PM GMT
Not only is the horse admirable and a probably once in a lifetime property,his owner is of similar ilk.

How much do you guys reckon she has turned down to buy him,bearing in mind probably 4 years at the outside for a place at the top table?

This is the difference between NH and flat and why the City Racing and Team Racing should be told to vaffanculo?
Report differentdrum December 8, 2018 11:27 PM GMT
Had a little look back at Badsworth Boy's wins on You Tube. His jumping was very slick and he did win easily but golden era? His only real danger, Bobsline, came down three out. He was also 8 before he registered his first win.
Report chavman December 8, 2018 11:31 PM GMT
nostalgia always clouds reality
Report BornToWin December 8, 2018 11:43 PM GMT
4/5 now, hopefully we can get that on the day and launch on Big Bucks style.


The reality be more like 2/7
Report glentoby December 9, 2018 12:10 AM GMT
My prediction on the day Born To Win 4/9 regardless of the ground.
Report buddeliea December 9, 2018 8:07 AM GMT
Its absolute nonsense to suggest Altior has to step up in distance to become a great.
The 2m division is where you find the fastest horses,and imo the classiest horses.
As said on this thread,we have had a few great 2 milers.
Just nonsense.

Now if connections get bored with being so much better than any other 2 miler around,which it seems he is,then they might give him a go at races like the King George,but they don't NEED to.
Report duncan idaho December 9, 2018 8:31 AM GMT
The 2m division is where you find the fastest horses,and imo the classiest horses


fastest= self-evident, classiest= at best personal preference, more likely incorrect (why is a 180-rated 2miler any classier than a 180-rated 3miler?)

if you believe what he has achieved @ 2m makes him a 'great', good enough...to me, he runs like a horse who would be even better over further, so seems wrong not to give him that chance (however, whether he or any other horse is considered 'great' or not by others doesn't interest me..people will have different opinions about everything under the Sun and most i wouldnt trust to judge a largest marrow competition)
Report chavman December 9, 2018 8:38 AM GMT
tbf duncan aesthetics should always be secondary in marrow judgement,weight should be the definitive measure.
Report buddeliea December 9, 2018 8:38 AM GMT
That's why I stated it as an opinion.
Yes horses like Kauto Star were pure class,but in general for me jumping fences at top speed over 2 miles is the class division.
Report Andrew in Sweden December 9, 2018 10:04 AM GMT
A very high class horse as we all know, travelled well yesterday (no flat spot) and apart from an iffy leap at the 2nd jumped well enough. Looked the winner before the last and although heavy going is less than ideal he beat another that thrives on it. A privilege to watch (I was there).

I think he should go for the KG, i've no doubt about the trip and feel he would win although it appears unlikely he will run. I will back him if he does.

As for where does he stand, in my opinion Sprinter Sacre was probably the best 2 mile chaser of those already mentioned, and although Altior isn't that far behind, he would need to do more to surpass him (and could of course).
Report screaming from beneaththewaves December 9, 2018 10:06 AM GMT
Are specialist 2m chasers actually significantly faster than 3m chasers? Or is it just a case that they run and jump at the same speed, but don't stay as far?

Altior covered the 1m 7.5f yesterday at 15.9 secs per furlong.

Yet half an hour later Morney Wing slogged his way home over nearly twice the distance (3m 5f) at a speed of 16.7 secs per furlong. And that was despite being at a near standstill after the last fence.

Just 0.8 secs per furlong difference.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves December 9, 2018 10:11 AM GMT
Just re-checked ... Morney Wing's average speed was 16.6 secs/furlong. So only 0.7 secs/furlong difference between him and Altior.
Report differentdrum December 9, 2018 10:26 AM GMT
I like three mile chasers just as much as two milers but I don't think you would need a match-up between Native River and Altior over two miles to know exactly what would happen.

There is too much ignoring of the obvious in search of the left field which often doesn't exist. More about individuals trying to be clever rather than individual horses.

Versatility and greatness can be measured separately. Altior doesn't need to go anywhere near a King George to confirm his merit.
Report The Sawyer December 9, 2018 10:34 AM GMT
Screaming

I have spent (wasted!!!) most of my life analysing race times and standard times and have thought the same as you.

If you use the RP standards the difference at Sandown between the 29f and 15.5f times are 0.6 seconds per furlong. Doesn't sound much until you multiply the 0.6 by 15.5 and then convert that time to distances. On decent ground (which is what the RP standards are trying to represent) that is over 40 lengths - and again the RP standards are trying to compare horses of similar ability with the same weight.

I still persevere as 40 years of toil may produce a winner one day!!!
Report salmon spray December 9, 2018 10:51 AM GMT
Presumably some people on this thread think 5f sprinters are the best flat horses.
Report FOYLESWAR December 9, 2018 11:13 AM GMT
altior while not being as visually impressive as some i.e travelling like a dream and cruising away , he seems to do just enough and then a little bit more just to stamp his authority on his rivals ,he is probably a good few pounds 7-10 imo  better than his official rating as he has yet to be fully extended .
Report ged December 9, 2018 11:28 AM GMT
I thought he was all-in at the finish yesterday. His time was 4 seconds slower than the novice race, though he was carrying 5 lbs more. I've always thought he was exceptional, but was a bit disappointed with him yesterday at the end - perhaps it was the ground.
Report FOYLESWAR December 9, 2018 11:39 AM GMT
think he may have been a bit rusty and the ground wernt ideal , ,no flashy  heroics and win by 10 or 15 lengths with this horse , get the job done if something can have a go(nothing has yet !) then i am sure he will pull out more  .more to come if needed !
Report FOYLESWAR December 9, 2018 11:40 AM GMT
if they went faster he would have won easier imo
Report FOYLESWAR December 9, 2018 11:44 AM GMT
i usually try to find something to take on a shortie with ,but every so often you find its pointless and costly ,big bucks ,frankel etc, altior why waste time and money opposing them either lump on or move on !
Report eric_morris December 9, 2018 11:47 AM GMT
I was there to watch him win his first CChase in March when he seemed way below his best. He never lacks the turbo at the end though he differs in how well he travels from race to race. As long as the turbo is there and he stays in touch to the bottom of the hill he will win more Queen Mothers.
Report buddeliea December 9, 2018 1:33 PM GMT
He was very impressive yesterday,especailly considering the ground and the performance by UDS in his ideal conditions.
I think UDS would have beaten any other 2 miler around yesterday.
Altior went past him like he was a 2nd rater,and UDS is far from that.
Report thelatarps December 9, 2018 8:05 PM GMT
Funny how these wonder horses keep popping up on almost a yearly basis in the national hunt game these days.
Fact is the GOld standard of champion chasers is Flying Bolt.
When Altior has managed what Bolty did he will be worthy of mention in the top echelon.
Report duffy December 9, 2018 8:39 PM GMT
I'm not sure I'll ever put Altior into the category that many seem to be doing if he stayed at 2 miles, perhaps I'm looking for flaws that aren't there, however I think the points I make are valid (they are to me anyhowLaugh) perhaps the reason he never hit his flat spot yesterday is because of the bad ground and they were going slower, yes UDS loves these conditions but perhaps Altior does too, it turned the race into a right old staying test, I didn't think he went past UDS like he was a 2nd rater myself I thought he simply outstayed a once top class horse who is probably a pound or two past his best.

I think the people calling for him to run in the KG which I am very much one simply see the possibility of what he might be capable of stepped up in trip and he could be seen in an even better light than he is at the moment and with it being a much deeper division it would by definition enhance is legacy and make what he did over 2 miles look even better.

Imagine the possibility that he's running over his wrong trip at the moment!!!
Report chavman December 9, 2018 8:47 PM GMT
keep him in training next year and go for the kings stand with a view to try the national the year after
Report thelatarps December 9, 2018 9:37 PM GMT
Psul Nicholls tried pushing MasterMinded (remember him?) up to 3m and he wasnt able to go with Long Run and Kauto.
Its probably the case that the training skill set required to make a 2m champion is not the same as a gold cup horse.
I would postulate that the rise in the number of  National Hunt superhorses like Altior over the last ten years or so is probably down to money.
In that there are no secrets anymore. Its not hard to discover the best irish pointers, the best young jumpers in france. They will be bought by the richest owners or the biggest training yards and be sent to the trainers with the best resources.
And as these trainers will have a constant source of new talent Altior will only ever be sent over 3m when it looks like he can no longer come up with the goods at two.
Racing is a numbers game at the top end. You train enough of them, the more likely you are to get a good one and the more likely you are to know what to do with the animal.
Report flushgordon1 December 9, 2018 10:30 PM GMT
He's fecking brilliant ,when he won the novice hurdle at Cheltenham it paid for my holidays Christmas and a leg in a slow 2 year old.
Report asparagus December 10, 2018 7:43 AM GMT
It is quite remarkable  some of the horses that are being suggested as better than Altior. The trouble is people often remember one or two performances from past horses and forget the rest of their career. The same seems to happen with footballers. Altior is already a great whatever happens from now on. He's won every race since going over hurdles or fences, he's won at Cheltenham festival 3 times easily. He'd have probably have won a champion hurdle the year after the supreme given how easily he dismissed Buveur D'air. Sprinter Sacre on his very best day may have been incredibly hard to beat and is perhaps still the best of recent times but he was nevertheless beaten on a number of occasions. Greatness is also about consistency as well as individual brilliance on any one day. Altior has more to prove before going down as one of the absolute greatest and of course the versatility of horses such as Kauto and Dessie are extra strings to their bow but there is no doubt he is already a great.

What about these horses as better than Altior?
Sizing Europe, Big Zeb, Captain Cee Bee, Forpadydeplasterer, Kalahari King.

Of course they are not in the same league but they all finished in the first 3 in champion chases (Big Zeb twice) when Master Minded was unplaced. Some people have very selective memories and anyone who thinks Master Minded was better than Altior is so far out it's amazing.
Report buddeliea December 10, 2018 8:03 AM GMT
As pointed out to me yesterday, Altior can run a bit lazily at times as he did in the Queen Mother,but if he does,then if the jockey is at all concerned he just shakes him up and the horse responds.
On Saturday they knew they were up against a horse that they could not let get away, and they were never that far behind.
Nico knows this horse really well,what hes capable of and how to ride him to win races.
Hec wins every race going away from the opposition.
He has no flaws.
Report sageform December 10, 2018 8:30 AM GMT
I agree that Altior is very good. Not just his best rating but his consistency and adaptability to different courses and racing surfaces. Plenty of past winners of the QM chase have shown brilliance over a short period, Master Minded being the most obvious but like Bristol de Mai, currently having the highest RPR among staying chasers, consistent they are not. My only reason for not whole heartedly endorsing Altior as the best 2 miles in my 60 years of watching thee sport is the lack of credible opposition. Un de Sceaux is a good and consistent chaser but he has been brushed aside in the past by Sprinter Sacre and is now 3 years older. The poor runs by the 2 young pretenders on Saturday emphasises either how good the first 2 are or how poor the rest of the 2 mile brigade are. Regardless of how high his best rating is, Altior is a very long way ahead of the current opposition. Footpad still has an awful lot to prove as his fellow novices from last season have done nothing to suggest they are within a stone of Un De Sceaux, never mind Altior.
Report thelatarps December 10, 2018 9:05 AM GMT
Lets face facts
the only game in town in national hunt is staying chases.
the Gold Cup and Grand National is all that anyone wants.
The champion hurdle has been diminished by the lack of flat handicappers moving into that division. the lure of the melbourne cup means this is the weakest bunch of 2m hurdlers in a long time.
altior is a great horse dominating a division with a very small pool of talent.
Like Big Bucks did.
Like MasterMinded, sprinter sacre, moscow etc.
altior has won one queen mother and slogged home on horrible ground in the tingle creek.
If you want to call him the new messiah after that then thats up to you.
Not for me tho.
Report Andrew in Sweden December 10, 2018 9:56 AM GMT
Shocked

the Gold Cup and Grand National is all that anyone wants.

I think most true racing fans would disagree
Report thelatarps December 10, 2018 10:11 AM GMT
Racing fans want a winner.
Preferably at a nice price.
I think that most owners and trainers in the NH game look at the gold cup and the grand national first and then work backwards.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves December 10, 2018 10:13 AM GMT
If only NH racing hadn't been ruined by all these Grade 1 and Grade 2 conditions chases throughout the season (both in GB and in Ireland).

Imagine Saturday's race as a limited handicap (with the same prize money): Altior on 11-10, Un De Sceaux 11-3, Sceaux Royal 10-8, Saint Calvados on 10-7.

What a race that would have been, and a chance to find out whether Altior really can do what Desert Orchid did. My guess is that he probably can - I think he'd always find that little bit extra, like Desert Orchid did. But it'll only ever be a guess, as he's never going to get properly tested.
Report Andrew in Sweden December 10, 2018 10:22 AM GMT
The Tingle Creek used to be a handicap
Report Davros December 10, 2018 10:32 AM GMT
Altior will be stepped up in trip for the Melling Chase in 2019.  If he wins and stays the King George will be the goal next season.

I still think Martha’s Son doesn’t get his due.
Report duncan idaho December 10, 2018 1:33 PM GMT
good point about weight, chavman
Report firstimevisor December 10, 2018 1:59 PM GMT
Of the 2 mile chasers from the last 30 years I'd have Sprinter Sacre comfortably on top. Moscow flyer was still a great horse as an 11 yo, posting rpr's of 181 and 182 that year . Altior is rated 175 and could well improve past Moscow but he's not there yet and will have to keep doing what he's doing for some time still.These are my top 3.
Master Minded produced one absolutely incredible performance as a 5 yo but never ran to within a stone of that again.
The likes of Remittance man, The 2 Flagships,Martha's Son, Barnbrook Again,Pearlyman were good horses but a class below the big 3.
Report thelatarps December 10, 2018 2:10 PM GMT
I suppose that if there wasnt the demand for these small field G1/2 races over jumps then they wouldnt exist.
Back in dessie's day there was the boxing day gold cup and then the one at chelters and that was your lot.
Quite a few gold cup horses got ruined carrying top weight on bad winter ground in meaningless handicaps.
Hen Knight was determined that wasnt going to happen to Best Mate who was a fragile horse at the best of times.
She got plenty of stick for running Matey only three times a season but she was proven right and she paved the way for the likes of altior.
Anyway.
Maybe the BHA could stick up the prize money for some decent handicaps instead of throwing good money after bad at ascots champions day.
Report differentdrum December 10, 2018 2:13 PM GMT
Given their different styles of racing always likely that Sprinter Sacre would be able to run to a higher figure. Personally, I think he was overrated. It is always a good story when a horse makes a successful return. Altior is just a faster horse and given that he is an efficient jumper I doubt that Sprinter Sacre would have been able to have created a big enough gap not to have got mown down in similar fashion to the rest of Altior's challengers.
Report charwell. December 10, 2018 2:14 PM GMT
In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.

Some of the tosh written on here is mind boggling. Thelarps you need to seek help quite frankly.

We have a horse who is unbeaten in 15 starts over timber! His hurdle campaign culminated in destroying an absolutely top class field in the Supreme which included the peerless 2m dual hurdle King B'Dair (who hasn't lost since in 2 years) and Min, Supasundae etc.

As a first season chaser he notched up 6 wins inc 5 wins @ grade 1 / 2; and in those 6 races he won by a combined distance of 114 lengths! Since then Altior has continued to conquer all top class challengers, basically unopposed.

Altior cruises round, hits a flat spot and then absolutely gobbles up anything around him. A truly wonderful horse. Sprinter Sacre is the only horse I have seen who may be as good at 2m (and is on of my 3 all time favourites). But to put Master Minded etc in that category is fanciful. He can win on any track, any going and jumps beautifully. He slaughtered the top class UDS + 2 much touted young pretenders LTO and is absolutely peerless in the 2m division. Whether he is as good over further remains to be seen; but I suspect he will be.

Although regardless; in 20 years time people will be waxing lyrical about this great horse. I reminisce over Remittance Man, Viking Flagship, Marthas Son etc. but the truth is they wouldn't be able to hold a candle to Alitior. So let's enjoy him whilst we can and not try and pick holes when none are there!
Report thelatarps December 10, 2018 2:59 PM GMT
Charwell
may i say that if you think a one time winner of the queen mother is in the top 3 horses of all time then perhaps you ought to seek help.
Physician heal thyself!
Report charwell. December 10, 2018 3:14 PM GMT
I was referring to Sprinter Sacre; whom I merely stated is one of my 3 favourite all time horses.

If you can't even comprehend a simple sentence structure then it's no wonder your ramblings are so misguided.
Report thelatarps December 10, 2018 3:28 PM GMT
so when you say that the only horse to compare with altior is sprinter
and sprinter is in your top 3 of all time..
..is it not logical to assume from that garbled post of yours that you believe altior is also in the top 3?
Forgive me it appears i made a leap of faith there.
Report charwell. December 10, 2018 3:37 PM GMT
Since when is being a favourite horse implying you think he is in the best ever?

I said over 2m I have only seen SS good enough to perhaps beat Altior. Stop trying to make out I have made outlandish claims.

Your pathetic desperation to crab Altior is impairing your judgement sir.
Report duffy December 10, 2018 3:42 PM GMT
I think it may be fair to say that UDS might not be as good a horse as when he was beaten 15 lengths by SS.
Report Movewiththetimes December 10, 2018 4:20 PM GMT
Looking at the history of the Queen Mother, there's been 11 double winners and only 1 triple winner so Badsworth boy got to be the champion of champions. Moscow Flyer would of joined him (going well when fell 4 out) and regained his crown following year. Sprinter got to be 3rd as to regain his crown after 3 years after injury was some performance.

As for Altior imo think he can join the top 3 time will tell.

Interesting that Ted Walsh is the only amateur to win the champion chase.
Report thelatarps December 10, 2018 4:22 PM GMT
I wont labour the point
i apologise if i misread your claim.
there is a phenomenon known as 'recentism'
When something good comes along it must be the best ever.
Like Messi or ronaldo 'clearly' being the best footballers of all time.
I remember in 1996 radio 1 had a poll to vote for the best pop record of all time.
In their wisdom the bbc listeners voted 'youre gorgeous' by babybird as the number 1.
It just happened to be the number 1 record at that time in 1996.
says it all really.
Report ribero1 December 10, 2018 4:24 PM GMT
UDS was beaten 3 and a bit in the champion then next time i.e the 15 length beating he made a chance ending mistake 3 out hence the much bigger margin,of course its all about jumping but to use this as a way to put SS ahead doesn't wash here and with UDS being first year out of novice status at the time who's to say he was at his peak then?
Altior all day for me.
Report duffy December 10, 2018 4:26 PM GMT
I fooking hated that song.Angry
Report duffy December 10, 2018 4:37 PM GMT
I was just being a bit mischievious,,,,I'd put SS ahead because his cruising speed would get the race won and accentuated Altior's flat spot....Incidentally this "flat spot", I get the impression that some refer to it as a mere trfle, something that Altior chooses to do...it's a point where he struggles to go the pace being asked, that's what it is. SS would keep that pressure up for longer and make it even harder for Altior, he use up more effort to keep up, it would have to effect his finishing burst.

Douvan was in the process of doing this in March but as soon as he fell Altior was let out of jail and the pace collapsed, said before, but between 3 and 2 out in Sprinters champion chase, what he did to SE is what Altior would suffer ....just my opinion of how I see it..that's all.
Report firstimevisor December 10, 2018 4:48 PM GMT
Its not just sheer numbers of wins though movewiththetimes, there can be huge differences of quality from year to year.
You couldn't say Best Mate was better than Kauto Star because he won more Gold Cups. Or that Lord Windermere was the equal of Denman.
Moscow flyer, Azertiyoup and Well Chief were all rated higher, at the same time, than Altior is now. That was a wonderful era for 2 mile chasers.
Well Chief never won a QM but in recent times Dodging Bullets and Special Tiara have won it.
Report duffy December 10, 2018 4:51 PM GMT
....Newmill too.
Report Movewiththetimes December 10, 2018 5:37 PM GMT
You can only beat what's there on the day- imo Istrabraq is the best champion hurdler but the field it beat was poor- but you can't takeaway the fact it turned up and destroyed it's rivals easily. No trainer is going to ever say to a Jockey before a championship race 'This is a poor field this year so make sure you win by 30 lengths so we can be rated with the best'.

You say Best mate wasn't a top horse (Was Fav for arkle when it got called off because of foot and mouth) but it never fell in race Kauto fell 3 times, I do believe that the Istrabraq and best mate would of pulled out more if the competition were better in there era.
Report Macster2 December 10, 2018 6:00 PM GMT
Best Mate probably failed to win as many races as it won when in its prime.
Failed to win off 169, won 2 Gold Cups practically all out beating animals way inferior, although not a true rating showed its limitations for me, and if you go back and see what it did beat in those Gold Cups they were hardly vinatge.
Did win 3 so its there in the records but thats the only thing that will keep it in the annals of history because the form shown time and time again would have it nearly 20lbs inferior to some winners of major races.
Denman, Kauto, Dessie and thats without going back to the generations prior
Report BornToWin December 10, 2018 6:15 PM GMT
Altior has never fallen and never been beaten over obstacles.

To suggest his 'flat spot' means he is 'struggling to go the pace asked' is laughable.

If he was struggling I rather think he might have been beaten at least once.

But no he just snores past everything in 7th gear.


A race v a peak Sprinter would be interesting.
Report firstimevisor December 10, 2018 6:19 PM GMT
No I did not say that Best Mate wasn't a top horse, of course he was. But I would take Kauto Star to beat him over any trip at the same age.I would also take Hurricane fly over Istabraq,who won more Champion Hurdles but that's not saying Istabraq wasn't a top horse either.
Report Macster2 December 10, 2018 6:20 PM GMT
The thing for me when you talk about greats and the public they seem to fall in one of two categories to purists.
Theres the sexy machines, Kauto, Sacre etc they destroy others with the speed and athletic traits, the ones where you may be able to finish closer by running for second but when youre trying to win youre generally outjumped or left behind at the business end because you cant go championship pace like they can for the full distance.
Then theres the Denmans and Dessies, the ones where theyve carried the weight and you know how good theyve been or were, the official ratings say so, and we all love the weight carrying performances.
The ones we tend to struggle with for me are the ones who can be more workmanlike, we all like to see them but its hard for some to accept greatness unless the fields are packed with top quality animals and theyre destroyed without showing weakness at any stage
Report charwell. December 10, 2018 6:26 PM GMT
If somebody dare suggest Best Mate could beat Kauto Star then a village is missing an idiot.

KS is the best horse I have ever sen (wasn't around in Arkles day so can't compare).

To take on and beat the best chasers around from 2m to 3m2f is incredible. Best Mate was wrapped in cotton wool and beat some real carthorses in his GC victories.
Report Macster2 December 10, 2018 6:30 PM GMT
I think we can probably all agree Best Mate was upwards of a stone inferior to Kauto Star, i would say official figures on numerous occasions proved it
Report buddeliea December 10, 2018 6:39 PM GMT
To suggest his 'flat spot' means he is 'struggling to go the pace asked' is laughable.

Absolutely spot on.
Its not so much a flat spot,but more a tendency to race a tad lazy at times.
Soon as the jockey thinks he needs to shake him up,hes off and wins going away.
Saturday he stayed close to UDS,Jockey kept him switched on cos he knew he could not afford for UDS to be too far ahead,and that will be the case in the future should he meet a rival that is a threat.
Last March he had no real threat,he raced lazily and still won easily.
Douvan was no threat,past his best,and even at his best he just kept beating a Gold Cup winner!!
Altior different class.
Report BornToWin December 10, 2018 7:32 PM GMT
A few of the the greats of the game have had ‘flat spots’. I tend to think these specimens are not only physically superior but are thinking faster as well.

Perhaps filling their lungs at the optimum point of a race produces the ‘flat spot’.
Report FOYLESWAR December 10, 2018 8:11 PM GMT
born to win sums up my feelings in his posts regarding altiors so called flat spots
Report dobmeister1 December 10, 2018 8:31 PM GMT
I was never a great fan of master minded but for a one off performance { a bit like the king george winner whos name escapes me }his first champion chase win takes some explaining on pure ratings it compares with any great performance before or since .cannot understand the altior knockers surely won the greatest supreme ever and has never really come close to being beat an absolute tool.
Report glentoby December 10, 2018 9:46 PM GMT
I ama mazed if you will pardon the use of my esteemed cynics user name.I did not expect such a reaction to the thread.

Matters not as this is what makes the sport worth bothering about and maybe negates my concern that Altior might not get his dues.I think he has done (At least on this thread).Plenty recognise what he has already achieved and future targets have become of huge interest.

Rightly or wrongly,I consider this Forum as the pulse of opinion and informed comment and my man at 7 Barrows would not disagree.He thinks that a King George would easily be in the compass of Altior.What he does say is that his owner does not seek the Kudos and NH has been curtailed in his exitement for the horse.

The Champion Chase may seem the target but NH knows his potential and has done all along,he could easily step up in trip,not ground dependent.Once the CC is out of the way 1/6 he will have an entry for the KG next year,regardless of the outcome other than injury.

BTW re-flat spots,expected from stayers but not 2 milers,natural for horses to take a gulp or two of air through a race,not a sign of a problem,one that can have that luxury in a 2 mile chase tells you that the horse has enough in reserve to continue the task in hand and more?
Report impossible123 December 10, 2018 10:10 PM GMT
I think Altior post his next Champion Chase win in March at Cheltenham - all being well - will almost certainly step-up in trip to 20f. And if winning comprehensively and staying the new trip well, the King George must be on the agenda; the Gold Cup beckons if winning the KG well, I firmly believe.

Altior is a very, very good horse...as good as Desert Orchid? Maybe not yet, I think.
Report eric_morris December 10, 2018 10:25 PM GMT
The first of Badsworth Boy’s three Champion Chase wins.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqR8QKeP2rA
Report differentdrum December 10, 2018 10:38 PM GMT
I thought the most interesting thing about those Badsworth Boy videos was the interview with Michael Dickinson. Refreshingly open in his comments.
Report eric_morris December 10, 2018 10:38 PM GMT
Badsworth Boy’s second win. Like a knife through butter in a big field.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bSPPzZkBfdc
Report eric_morris December 10, 2018 10:47 PM GMT
Badsworth Boy’s 3rd win

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1beCTpn0w58
Report Movewiththetimes December 11, 2018 3:58 AM GMT
charwell. 10 Dec 18 18:26 Joined: 28 Sep 04 | Topic/replies: 8,443 | Blogger: charwell.'s blog
If somebody dare suggest Best Mate could beat Kauto Star then a village is missing an idiot.

KS is the best horse I have ever sen (wasn't around in Arkles day so can't compare).

To take on and beat the best chasers around from 2m to 3m2f is incredible. Best Mate was wrapped in cotton wool and beat some real carthorses in his GC victories.

This is why the forum is dead, me an idiot so lol, this is why the bookies always make millions, run Kauto v best mate 20 times best mate wins 3 times without trying due to kautos ability to land on the floor and like i've always believe put the bad winners to the test and they will produce more. The best never did the winning in the last 5th of the race wnere the best crop of a bad year has too. A 5 furlong sprint wouldn't be good to any of the top 5.
Report glentoby December 11, 2018 6:47 PM GMT
Looks like we may get to find out where Altior ranks among the likes of Dessie,Kauto etc.Odds on as it stands to step up in trip after the Champion Chase is out of the way.NH has even hinted he may go straight up to 3 miles.Fingers crossed he stays sound and stays 3 miles,he could be the "Superstar" missing from the 3 mile division.

That said we still have untapped potential in Politologue and the re-emergence of Thistlecrack.
Report Platini December 26, 2019 12:03 PM GMT
TTT
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