James Doyle

Of course there are horses that perform best when held up but I don't believe that connections who decide that after only 2 or 3 runs will get the best out of their horses.

Good points acey and diff

SOC has been held up thus far so as to get her settled..even if they were open to sitting closer to the pace, they would want to do so knowing she would get cover..there was a big chance they wouldnt get that out of stall 15, so Sunday wasnt the race to be trying it

I accept that Duncan but horses do learn to settle so using those tactics in big fields will always make it hard unless you have a stone in hand..

she'd have won in another stride or 2...she may well have been out with the washing if she'd been 3 wide and pulling

We will never know. If she had been 4 places further up the field at halfway I think she would have won but as I had a decent bet on Enable I am glad she didn't.

I didn't remember Sea Of Class pulling that much so I had another look.

She over races for no more than a couple of strides on seasonal debut. Lots of horses will be fresh first time rather it being a trait. Second time I would say she races enthusiastically, certainly not out of control and on her third run she settles perfectly.

Certainly not enough in those runs to suggest that she needed to be held up any longer because she didn't settle.

Sure there`s a vacant yard somewhere for you.

Good points diff and tbh it's not so much that he settled at the back its that he didn't make a forward move until he entered the straight that cost him the race. If he moved up entering the false straight would have won no doubt. I've said this before but at York he went plenty early enough for a horse that supposedly needs to be smuggled into the race and she ran all the way to the line. All he had to do Imo was make his move earlier even if that was just switching out and gradually winding her up. If you watch the race as soon as they enter the straight he's got brown pants cos he knows he's ferkerd up. He goes from cruising to flat out in a few strides which is a bit unfair on the horse. The horse did respond and that's to be applauded but the jockey ferkerd up simples

I think you've got the potential to become a forum legend, Dave.

Remember you heard it here first!

My lord he doth protest too much.

Lmao kenbo not sure if that is sarcasm but I like it anyway lol.  Feltfair I can go on a bit lol

Lmao when I have a point to make I'm like a dog with a big juicy bone mate lol

I`ve noticed.

Very observant old boy lol

don't change Dave, they don't like it up em

Not a pray mate I'm Yorks loud n proud say it as it and loved your post from the comment alone classic. I reckon a lot of jocks must be gay and the guys on here are there gimps pmsl

William and Maureen Haggas thought she should be held up at the back, Lester Piggott thought she should be held up at the back, James Doyle thought she should be held up at the back, in all her previous victories she'd been held up out the back, anyone with a brain knew she'd be held up at the back. Then the forum mugs try and come up with reasons why she shouldn't have been held up at the back. I don't recall a single one on here pre race stating concerns about holding her up. James Doyle did what he'd been advised to do and did it well. If the O'Brien pacemakers had gone a bit faster as you would have expected with the St Leger winner the stable number one then Sea Of Class would probably have won.

Asparagus if obriens  had gone faster wtf is that supposed to mean. You can plan all you want but the jockey has sole responsibility for the ride. If the race doesn't run as they expect then you change your ferkin tactics. Why should we question the tactics  before the race we don't ferkin know them. Your saying they didn't go fast enough another muppet said  they went too fast make your minds up. Fact if you finish like Doyle did and lose it is a BAD RIDE. you cannot play a sport where winning is the objective and say well done you finished second when everyone knows you should have won. All the slaters of Doyle are asking from you muppets is to admit if he had moved up a bit earlier he would have won surely that's common sense. How many times do you muppets have to be told? look how early he went to the front at York!!!!  Someone said if he had gone three wide all the way round he would have been way back wtf. He had a lovely position for a mile but 4 out he should have realised its time to start making a move,switch out and do a dancing brave attack. Watch GOD on db he was three wide all the way around cos he knew the only safe route was outside. Doyle had plenty of chance to move out before the straight thus getting a clear uninterrupted run to the line and would have beaten a below par enable defo

Cant have that was a below par Enable.....You don't Win an Arc if your below par.

I'm not in the know deuce but from a visible point of view she was emptying close home. She couldn't have been in the same form as last season with this seasons prep but at the end of the day she won and Doyle didn't.

Sorry, I did say I'd not comment further.

Jockey Doyle overcooked the hold-up. Like some here had opined Doyle ought to/should have made his move earlier knowing where and how far Enable was infront of Sea Of Class in case meeting traffic problem which he did at the crucial moment - be it slight - and being proactive; his ride in The Arc was a replica of The Irish Oaks, but with a different outcome.

Another jockey who got away with it in Ireland was Oisin Murphy on Roaring Lion in The Champion Stakes - Moore and Saxon Warrior nearly nicked it; Saxon Warrior would have won had he not got injured just before the line when infront, I firmly believe. I think his connections could not believe he won from where he was in the post race interviews.

By the way, Cloth of Stars and Waldgeist - both hold-up horses - finished 3rd and 5th respectively holding midfield position, and not in the washing as one poster indicated; the latter was a touch unlucky when impeded - could have been 3rd (not win) - very late in the race.

Very good post impossible. I saw the part about cloth of stars and waldgeist too lol. SHe had so much finishing kick he didn't even need to be as close as they were. At the end of the day I backed enable and felt lucky just get a bit peesed off over the guys who think jockeys are bulletproof and shouldn't be shot at when they ferk up.

No comparison holding a horse up in very small fields as opposed to a very big field in a better race with a poor draw. Anyone with half a brain would realise that. I am not sure whether the dilemma facing Doyle was discussed on here but it was widely discussed in the media. No real point in repeating same on here.

Fair point diff but still doesn't deflect from the end result

The winner travelled and blew up. Simple as. Jockey motionless at the two. Jockey said, trainer said, visuals said, fractionals said.

If Enable found as much as could be reasonably expected, off a reasonable pace - with that perfect run, she'd have won a couple of lengths.

If you wanna contest that Enable didn't finish her race, think about Cloth of Stars - he got to Enable's quarters and she put 2-3l on him at the furlong. Beat the colt 3/4l in the end. How many times do you see a horse stretch away from something that got to its quarters, only for that horse to finish close again at the finish?

Nothing wrong with the ride from JD from that draw. Nearly nicked it.

It was not a bad ride given the instructions and the circumstances but if he had managed to be 3 lengths closer to Enable at the half mile pole he would have won. Not a criticism, a fact. I have watched the race several times and he did have a chance to get out earlier but continued to sit at the back. It is all about split second decisions.

Enable (might) not be 100% given her troubled prep, if so, could the connections of Sea Of Class (SoC) not have (envisaged) that or at least thought that could be a possibility? Let get real for a second, SoC would never have beaten a 100% fit Enable given her draw disadvantage and the plum position of Enable in the race where Doyle was? Unless one thought SoC could never have been able to obtain a better position than her losing one eg rear of midfield like Waldgeist and Cloth Of Stars, I believe SoC would have been a convincing winner instead of an unfortunate runner-up.

I remember a good friend who was the head honcho of an international airline once said to me. He said the best pilot would be one that could avoid a disaster and able to land an injury stricken plane in the wosrt possible scenario, and not one who could deliver in ideal conditions.

At the end of the day, a very good opportunity for an Arc win was foregone. By the way I backed Enable and SoC (20/1); the former in singles, doubles and trebles (as saver), the latter with Kew Gardens (Leger) and Might Bite (Kempton); I'd have won more a wee bit more with the latter given her price post The Irish Oaks. Hence, this is not pocket-talking...just frustrated the best horse did not win this very prestigious and important race in Europe.

Dettori won The Arc, Doyle lost it!

Bungle making a bowler hat of himself again.

Social media was well mentioned by ITV 4 team in their discussion of the arc today.

They had to mention social media because if they didn't then there was no discussion point. According to everyone in the media Doyle rode a great race.

Still going, this fred then.   What's interesting is that nearly everyone who thinks JD rode a bad race, apparently backed Enable.  Odd that

How could Doyle have ridden a great race when he'd been beaten only by a fast diminishing neck coming from a long way back by Enable who'd a plum position throughout? I think either the media people had been watching The Arc through rose-tinted glasses or were auditioning to become the next agent for Doyle or feeding from the trough sponsored by the bookies.

Re: Backing Enable. Sometimes one has to minimise risk and maximise the chance of a positive return given the draw of Sea Of Class (SoC) eg backing Enable in singles (prior to her Kempton run), doubles and trebles (post Kempton) after antepost SoC at 20/1 or more. All eggs in one basket? Never.

Rode a great race please he fecked up.But enable wasn't at her best you cannot win the best race of the season riding like that push her forward from the start,granted it was a bad draw as kieran fallon says you can lose the race at the start with the position you take and that,s what he did.For me thankfully.

Yeah me grammer poor.

Fascinating stuff from impossible123. Capitalized on Sea Of Class's draw months back. Surely the BHA needs to investigate this insider knowledge.

Wow, empty vessels definitely make the most noise.

Amazing. These clowns who don't know one end of a horse from the other; yet have the foresight and wisdom as to anticipate the draw in placing Ante Post bets!! Aftertiming united on here.

Still the champion trainer, the greatest jockey who ever sat on a horse and the experts haven't got a clue. The sharp minds doing 20p each way doubles in their bedsits and using the Sun as their bible are the ones we should pay attention to.

I am sure before the race they were clamouring to tell the Doyle to burst from the gates like Dayjur, hug the rail like a greyhound and then finish like Arazi. Really so simple. Dunno how that clown Doyle didn't adopt these tactics when the blueprint is plain for all to see!

Charwell, the middle of the night post is never a terrific sign . Either you are as full as a bus or mentally strained, and your legible post is leading me to lean towards the latter. Quite clearly you are slightly confused so I’m not going to be too critical , but any sports person who takes advice from an octogenarian is surely in trouble from flagfall.

Think outside the box; be different to others in the room; conformity and similarity seldom pay; proactive and not reactive - these are the ingredients towards a more productive, rewarding and successful outcome in most situations including horse racing eg Tiger Roll, the Grand National winner - almost everyone of the professional pundits ridiculed his jumping, and gave him little chance. The rest is history.

Pretty pointless quoting people within the game. How often do they criticise their own in public? Yes, it doesn't happen so it is worthless information. Private conversations would be a lot more interesting.

I would say Doyle has got off fairly lightly thanks to being lucky enough to get a charmed passage. Had his run been checked then I suspect this thread would have doubled.

Think outside the box; be different to others in the room; conformity and similarity seldom pay


Tiger Roll was 2nd fav 

poor draw + 'bad ride'= btn shrt nck...guess she'd have won a minute with a good draw and good ride


thread descended into hindsight bias & after-timing, so i'm out

Put it this way, off identical terms in a match, not many would be on Enable. Being drawn 16 of 16 around Longchamp on a hold up horse is never going to be easy. Of course, Doyle should have gone earlier as we never got a chance to see what would have happened had he got upsides but it was always going to be difficult.

here is SRs sectional analysis

https://twitter.com/RowleyfileRRR/status/1051046010095587329

rowlands suggests enable ran evenly and SOC didn't (+5)

Put it this way, off identical terms in a match, not many would be on Enable.

Next year, i would be all over Enable in a match.

with the wfa amendments, I would bet enable too (at evens each of 2)

jimeen    13 Oct 18 09:33 
Charwell, the middle of the night post is never a terrific sign . Either you are as full as a bus or mentally strained, and your legible post is leading me to lean towards the latter. Quite clearly you are slightly confused so I’m not going to be too critical , but any sports person who takes advice from an octogenarian is surely in trouble from flagfall.

So you put yourself up as a better judge than Lester - you really do have a high opinion of yourself.

Crepello, I’m not saying im a better judge than anyone , but I’m saying that Lester is from a different era , racing has changed in so many ways . Fitness levels are completely different, prominent racing is much more popular ( and rightly so  ) than it was 30 years ago . Lester would hardly know what century he’s in at this stage , never mind be able to give riding instructions in an Arc.

Tbf I do not think Lester would have sat where Doyle was knowing his principal rival and reigning champion and fav was lobbying along 12l infront of him and in a position the envy of every runner in the race. For goodness sake at least placed the horse in the best position to give the filly a chance of beating Enable or winning. Where she was she'd no chance, I firmly believe, despite Enable was not even fully fit.

Keep digging Bungle.

Andrew in Sweden 13 Oct 18 11:10 Joined: 10 Nov 07 | Topic/replies: 11,487 | Blogger: Andrew in Sweden's blog
Put it this way, off identical terms in a match, not many would be on Enable.

Next year, i would be all over Enable in a match.

So would I, as next year it wouldn't be off identical terms.

If Dettori had been on Sea Of Class, she'd have won; Doyle on Enable, she'd have lost, I'm fairly certain.

For goodness sake Bungle.

Oct 13, 2018 -- 7:05PM, FELTFAIR wrote:

For goodness sake Bungle.

I think Doyle rode a perfectly good race like he always does. He’s a very good jockey. But your comments against on the other hand are just that of a complete bell end.

You`ve summed up Bungle perfectly.

Why don’t you just offer a view? Perhaps not because you’re a troll. I don’t agree with these guys on this occasion but why are you even on this thread seriously?

Someone has to strike a balance.

Fair play but at least say your views I don’t gave a problem with that. Yes they might not be right, in this instance, but there’s got to be at some sort of argument against...
Doyle was superb in this race imo. I don’t get the criticism here.

Exactly, but Bungle just keeps on knocking Doyle.

gj like you I like doyle, as far as I'm concerned he is a proven top rider but have you seen the sectionals analysis that I posted a link to?
the sectionals paint a different picture to the visual impression of the race (to me anyway)

they certainly suggest SOC was the best filly in the race on sunday (on the day & at the weights)

You may be right but you don`t keep banging on about it. The race is history, let`s move on.

Wonder', do we take Rowlands' sectionals as the gospel and the font of all knowledge?

Take last year's Derby, for example, Rowlands and Willo banging the drum that those close (eg Cracksman) to the pace hadn't been at a disadvantage, despite the visual impression suggesting otherwise, with good markers Permian (RIP) and Best Solution dropping away while those ridden with restraint came to the fore.

I did wonder. And I certainly take your view on board since I respect you far more than most on here to say the very least. I am no apologist, but I think it was a top class ride by Doyle given the draw and circumstances and I would have been amazed to have seen any jockey in the world to have done any better given the situation that he was faced with.

well that really is history!!

but watch the 2017 derby again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVBe5fc9k7g

you will see cracksman isn't "close to the pace", he is racing nearer midfield early

and here is SRs article
https://www.timeform.com/horse-racing/features/sectionals/sectional-timing-debrief-investec-derby-festival-462017
not upgrading cracksman as he didn't race close to the pace

gj...for sure his hand was forced to some extent with the draw, field size etc

he was closer than those than those that beat him!

No question wonder SOC is the best.....sadly fate worked against her unfortunately these days you don’t get remembered ‘properly’ like Dancing Brave either

Oct 13, 2018 -- 8:16PM, GEORGE.B wrote:

he was closer than those than those that beat him!

closer to the front than the 1st 2 yes but cracksman ran pretty much evenly (for epsom 1m 4f), that's why he wasn't upgraded

if you read the article SR hasn't suggested that horses forcing the pace weren't at a disadvantage as he has upgraded horses that set the pace

But it would be wrong to imagine that Wings of Eagles was greatly flattered.

I suppose the article can be interpreted in different ways, if you take the above quote for example, you could interpret that as the hold up horses weren't at an advantage.

And Wings Of Eagles failed to confirm the form with Cracksman at the Curragh (some may say that was cuz he was injured, but not sure I buy that seeing as he got so close).

There as been quite a few "head Waiters" in my time. e.g. J.Spencer. When it comes  off great ride by the jockey, when like in the "Arc" beaten a neck  Doyle to far back. You cant blame the horse, can't blame the trainer. Got away with it in Ireland, but not this time.Mrs Haggis very, very annoyed with the ride  Doyle gave the horse.

the figures suggest WOE wasn't greatly flattered relative to the others involved in the finish (cracksman, eminent, COM etc all being much more strongly fancied going into the race)

clearly the o'brien horses who set the pace were disadvantaged but the figures suggest they haven't had much of an impact on the race as the visual impression gives

That's not true smartpunter, Mrs Haggas was fine with the ride judging from quotes in the paper. She could only have been annoyed if he'd disobeyed orders, which he did not.

Agreed George. You cannot blame the jockey. Absolute tosh.

‘To Smartpunters comment that is’

doyle is no head waiter

Definitely not.

To criticise Doyle on the basis of post-race sectional analysis is bad form imo.

They obviously had a plan to drop in and stuck to it, and that plan wasn't an unreasonable one, given the bad draw and the anticipation of a strong pace from the Ballydoyle mob as that would suit their main hope Kew Gardens.

I haven't criticised him

doyle is no head waiter

^ what's this, Scotch mist?

you've completely misinterpreted that comment

head waiter is a term I would use to describe somebody like a carberry over jumps (default style hold horses up)

doyle doesn't have a default hold up style imo hence my comment

So why bother posting it? The fact you posted it on this thread would suggest you were being critical of his hold up skills.

ok whatever

I love that this mofo is still rolling lmao. I do think we are going round in circles though guys. A late finishing hold up ride that doesn't win is a bad ride end of unless it meets exceptional trouble in running which it didn't. Doyle sat too far back and  had ample opportunity to move forward much earlier than he did. A length further forward 4 out would have made all the difference but pulling out wide instead of riding through the pack was the biggest mistake. You only need to look at GOD on dancing brave and to see how you ride a hold up horse in an arc. Simailar amount of runners but a much more intelligent jockey.

The RP has dished out an appraisal of him, a timely and convenient time-space-wasting piece on their part. Doyle is good (Kingman) similarly, Queally on Frankel. And the latter has far less opportunities than the former.

Doyle wasn't so good in the 200 Guineas impossible lmao but I get what your saying mate. Just think it would be simpler for all his defenders to admit he lost by been too far back. They obviously don't have the testes for that but each to their own. I will agree it was a brave ride but imo to lose like that is still ultimately a bad ride.

I agree, 2000G was not good; sidetracked by Australia to allow an outsider to triumph. Post that was good though. I'll have Dettori any time or even Starkey in big meetings and races with the exception of Dancing Brave in The Derby.

Head Waiter ? Harry Wragg must be turning in his grave at some of the riders being given his title.

Hold-up rides are always open to criticism if they don't end up in victory. I thought Doyle gave her a very good ride under the circumstances.

My favourite hold-up horse of all time is Harmonic Way, who used the tactic in exaggerated fashion to win the 1999 Stewards Cup, 2000 Wokingham and 2001 Cork & Orrery. For one of those wins the jockey was fitted with the Jockey Cam, sadly I can't find it online, but still remember it as 'knife through butter' stuff.

Anyone remembers Little Bay? For that matter has anyone tried to get their losses back on him? Still waiting, no doubt.

That Derby will haunt starkey for a million years lol. I remember little bay but not so much race wise think was Gordon Richards and Ron Barry

I was at Goodwood for the 86' Select Stakes to watch Dancing Brave post his Derby run; he looked absolutely superb with a glossy sheen on his coat. The crowd started slow-clapping Starkey as he approached the home turn a good 6f out, and louder when Starkey looked over his left shoulder coasting into the lead before stretching out for an easy win en-route to the Arc. Poor Starkey!

Little Bay was a right monkey. He'd pull himself up almost immediately after taking up the running, and had to be kidded along to the line. If not mistaken, Francome had a go too.

Think I remember francome on him too mate that's 35 years agoish ffs we getn old mate

I was in my mid 20's (I think). The race was on tele, and I remembered Francome riding him like a cowboy up the Sandown hill (I believe).

first two at nottingham not too shoddy

How dare you! If some Sun reading Yorkshire gobby bloke says otherwise then that is absolutely the end of the matter!!!

Yes, he has ridden another couple of hold-up winners but on another day those in front don't come back and things don't look quite so rosy. Nottingham is quite often a good track for front runners so conceding plenty of ground is not always such a great tactic.

best jockey in the business

That sounds like sarcasm Charwell I'm impressed didn't realise guardian readers understood that particular form of wit lmfao. The thing that the sun and myself have in common is that we are straight to the point and that's the way to be Imo. Btw still think a losing ride is a bad ride regardless of how close you get!!!!!!