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22 Sep 18
18:22
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Date Joined:
05 Apr 02
in a season again?
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No- and that’s a shame, bookies got there way on fixtures, timings and structure of races, nowt left.
And Nagwa and was it Timeless Times or something trained by Bill O'Gorman.
No Mac,maybe i'm wrong with memory but wasn't there almost 2 horse races or at least very small fields in a lot of the ones that particulary the above two were able to get a string together?
Good buzz at the time following their sequences.
Good buzz at the time following their sequences.
much easier to run up a sequence back then - changed it early 80s
tbh I can`t remember Pa but I think you may be right.
Mainly of historical interest now and the changes in race planning mean that their totals are unlikely ever to be removed from the record books. In the last ten seasons one horse, Peak To Creek trained by Jeremy Noseda, has managed 7 wins but there have been years where 4 or 5 successes have been the best achieved.
To put the development into context the records for 2yo wins in a season had stood since the 1880s until some movement in 1975. A horse called The Bard won 16 races in 1885, one a walkover, to hold the record for the males. Three fillies had managed 12 wins and they were Catalogue (1864), Lady Elizabeth (1867) & Semolina (1889). It would be interesting to know what changed in 1890 to put those records out of reach for a long time.
In 1975 a filly called Nagwa (Tower Walk ex Tamarisk Way) trained by Barry Hills won 13 of her 20 outings. That bettered the level of the other three fillies and also could be used as a 'Modern Day Record' considering that racing in the 1970s was presumably a different place to be than in the 1880s. If by a lesser margin than one might imagine.
In 1980 Spindrifter, trained by Mark Prescott, won 13 of his 19 starts which left him 3 short of The Bard's record for males. But, he had matched the 'Modern Day' mark set by Nagwa. The story then comes to a climax with the training career of Bill O'Gorman. He had been producing multiple winning 2yos since the late 1970s and had more than one example of juveniles winning 9 races in a season in that period. In 1984 the experience and the horse came together with Provideo who had 16 successes from his 23 outings. This surpassed the 'Modern Day' level and matched the historical record set by The Bard. Provideo had won the Brocklesby Stakes as the first race of the season in March and won his 16th race on November 1st.
Mr. O'Gorman has said that he had other horses that he could have pressed into winning this high number of races but targeted higher class races with them instead. In 1990 the right type of horse, of the 'right' quality, came along in Timeless Times and he won 16 of his 21 starts. He had won 16 by September 15th but then got an injury otherwise he might well have surpassed the record held by The Bard & Provideo rather than joining them at the top of the list.
To get a feel for the quality of these horses Nagwa was rated 8 points below the Champion filly of her year and was probably better than the three later males. Spindrifter was rated 102 by Timeform when the champion males typically rate between 124-128. The O'Gorman trained pair both tried Listed races with Provideo managing to win one and were rated a little higher than Spindrifter at season's close.
Mainly of historical interest now and the changes in race planning mean that their totals are unlikely ever to be removed from the record books. In the last ten seasons one horse, Peak To Creek trained by Jeremy Noseda, has managed 7 wins but there have been years where 4 or 5 successes have been the best achieved.
To put the development into context the records for 2yo wins in a season had stood since the 1880s until some movement in 1975. A horse called The Bard won 16 races in 1885, one a walkover, to hold the record for the males. Three fillies had managed 12 wins and they were Catalogue (1864), Lady Elizabeth (1867) & Semolina (1889). It would be interesting to know what changed in 1890 to put those records out of reach for a long time.
In 1975 a filly called Nagwa (Tower Walk ex Tamarisk Way) trained by Barry Hills won 13 of her 20 outings. That bettered the level of the other three fillies and also could be used as a 'Modern Day Record' considering that racing in the 1970s was presumably a different place to be than in the 1880s. If by a lesser margin than one might imagine.
In 1980 Spindrifter, trained by Mark Prescott, won 13 of his 19 starts which left him 3 short of The Bard's record for males. But, he had matched the 'Modern Day' mark set by Nagwa. The story then comes to a climax with the training career of Bill O'Gorman. He had been producing multiple winning 2yos since the late 1970s and had more than one example of juveniles winning 9 races in a season in that period. In 1984 the experience and the horse came together with Provideo who had 16 successes from his 23 outings. This surpassed the 'Modern Day' level and matched the historical record set by The Bard. Provideo had won the Brocklesby Stakes as the first race of the season in March and won his 16th race on November 1st.
Mr. O'Gorman has said that he had other horses that he could have pressed into winning this high number of races but targeted higher class races with them instead. In 1990 the right type of horse, of the 'right' quality, came along in Timeless Times and he won 16 of his 21 starts. He had won 16 by September 15th but then got an injury otherwise he might well have surpassed the record held by The Bard & Provideo rather than joining them at the top of the list.
To get a feel for the quality of these horses Nagwa was rated 8 points below the Champion filly of her year and was probably better than the three later males. Spindrifter was rated 102 by Timeform when the champion males typically rate between 124-128. The O'Gorman trained pair both tried Listed races with Provideo managing to win one and were rated a little higher than Spindrifter at season's close.
The Bard was one of 4 exceptional colts foaled in the same year - the others being Ormonde, Minting and Saraband.
Ormonde was one of the greatest racehorses ever, won the triple crown, and was unbeaten in 16 races.
Minting was very nearly his equal, meeting him twice - in the 2000gns (they bet 2/1 Minting, 5/2 Ormonde) where Ormonde won by 2 lengths, and the Hardwicke when they were 4yos, where Ormonde won by a hard fought neck. Minting skipped the Derby as his trainer acknowledged that Ormonde was a better 3yo, and instead Minting went for the Grand Prix de Paris, which he won easily. His career record was 9 from 12. The only other race he lost was his final race as a 5yo in the Champion Stakes.
The Bard made his 3yo debut in the Derby, and was the only horse to give Ormonde a race. He finished 10 lengths clear of the 3rd horse. He ended the season winning the Doncaster Cup in a canter. He later became champion sire in France. In all he went 23 from 25. His only defeat apart from the Derby came in the Manchester Cup (run a few weeks after the Derby, he was set to carry 8-4. It was run over 14f, and was an all-aged hcap. There were 2 other 3yos in the field of 10, who both carried 6-1, and it was one of those that beat him into 2nd place).
Saraband won 6 from 8 as a 2yo, including his debut by 12 lengths, and the New Stakes at Royal Ascot, then the main 2yo race of the meeting (it was renamed the Norfolk some time in the 1970s). He didn't train on as a 3yo, but at stud, he was a notable sire of broodmares, and one of his daughters (Admiration) produced the great Pretty Polly.
Robert Peck trained Saraband, and also owned The Bard. He reportedly considered Saraband a better 2yo than The Bard, and obviously knew The Bard was inferior to both Ormonde and Minting, and avoided meeting all 3 with him as he sent him all over the country to win those 16 races at 2, but the little horse had speed, stamina (he easily stayed 2 miles at 3) and guts - he displayed the latter in challenging the much bigger Ormonde in the Derby, and in trying vainly to win the Manchester Cup, the only 2 races where he was beaten.
Ormonde was one of the greatest racehorses ever, won the triple crown, and was unbeaten in 16 races.
Minting was very nearly his equal, meeting him twice - in the 2000gns (they bet 2/1 Minting, 5/2 Ormonde) where Ormonde won by 2 lengths, and the Hardwicke when they were 4yos, where Ormonde won by a hard fought neck. Minting skipped the Derby as his trainer acknowledged that Ormonde was a better 3yo, and instead Minting went for the Grand Prix de Paris, which he won easily. His career record was 9 from 12. The only other race he lost was his final race as a 5yo in the Champion Stakes.
The Bard made his 3yo debut in the Derby, and was the only horse to give Ormonde a race. He finished 10 lengths clear of the 3rd horse. He ended the season winning the Doncaster Cup in a canter. He later became champion sire in France. In all he went 23 from 25. His only defeat apart from the Derby came in the Manchester Cup (run a few weeks after the Derby, he was set to carry 8-4. It was run over 14f, and was an all-aged hcap. There were 2 other 3yos in the field of 10, who both carried 6-1, and it was one of those that beat him into 2nd place).
Saraband won 6 from 8 as a 2yo, including his debut by 12 lengths, and the New Stakes at Royal Ascot, then the main 2yo race of the meeting (it was renamed the Norfolk some time in the 1970s). He didn't train on as a 3yo, but at stud, he was a notable sire of broodmares, and one of his daughters (Admiration) produced the great Pretty Polly.
Robert Peck trained Saraband, and also owned The Bard. He reportedly considered Saraband a better 2yo than The Bard, and obviously knew The Bard was inferior to both Ormonde and Minting, and avoided meeting all 3 with him as he sent him all over the country to win those 16 races at 2, but the little horse had speed, stamina (he easily stayed 2 miles at 3) and guts - he displayed the latter in challenging the much bigger Ormonde in the Derby, and in trying vainly to win the Manchester Cup, the only 2 races where he was beaten.
Owner would have to be mad and have money to burn
Excellent post ged and it's a little surprising to hear that a horse would be taken to France for a race so long ago in the 1800s.
I think around that time the Grand Prix de Paris was the only race that non-French-breds could run in. There was a lot of fuss a few years before then that French-breds could come over and run in the English classics, but English breds couldn't do the converse.
You would need either to be prepared to run a really good horse into the ground or get a pattern class animal a lowly mark and sweep up a load of nurseries before upping in grade. Very hard to do.
A bit more on The Bard.
In 1885, he won 11 races before the end of May, starting with the Brocklesby at Lincoln. He soon established himself as the best 2yo seen out with the possible exception of Saraband who was trained by his (The Bard's) owner. He picked up most of the big pots available for 2yos in the first half of the season, and as prize money in those days usually went all to the winner, these races usually had large entries, but dwindled to a handful once it was realised he would be running. He was ridden in 10 of these 11 races by Fred Archer (the exception being the Brocklesby), who usually rode him to win cleverly by half a length or less. In many of the races, he carried a penalty, 7 lbs or more, but in some races, like the Hyde Park Stakes at Epsom on April 29, there were no penalties. In that race, the winner's prize was 500 sovs, and there was "an enormous entry", but because of his presence, that entry dwindled to 5, and he won 'easily' by 3/4 of a length, going off 1/4 fav.
This was his record for his first 11 races, with dates, venues, and field sizes.
Mar 24. Lincoln. 16 ran.
Mar 26. Liverpool. 10.
Apr 15. Northampton. 6.
Apr 16. Northampton. 6.
Apr 28. Epsom. 2. (29 entered)
Apr 29. Epsom. 5.
Apr 30. Sandown. 5.
May 19. Newmarket. 4.
? Windsor ?
May 26. Manchester. 3.
May 27. Manchester. 3.
He then won at Ascot, (but side-stepped Saraband who took the big 2yo race), beating a moderate lot, including two 3yos, in a weight-for-age race with 4 runners.
Ante-post betting for the 1886 Derby opened on July 27. Just 2 horses were quoted. They went 7/1 Saraband, 100/9 The Bard (by which time he'd notched 3 more wins, one a w/o). Bets were noted of £150 on Saraband, and 2 bets of £90 on The Bard. At that time, Ormonde had not yet run, and Minting had had one run, winning the Seaton Delaval at Newcastle at the beginning of July in a canter by 6 lengths at 5/4, presumably not quite hitting the headlines, but that would change when he cantered up again at Goodwood on July 30.
In 1885, he won 11 races before the end of May, starting with the Brocklesby at Lincoln. He soon established himself as the best 2yo seen out with the possible exception of Saraband who was trained by his (The Bard's) owner. He picked up most of the big pots available for 2yos in the first half of the season, and as prize money in those days usually went all to the winner, these races usually had large entries, but dwindled to a handful once it was realised he would be running. He was ridden in 10 of these 11 races by Fred Archer (the exception being the Brocklesby), who usually rode him to win cleverly by half a length or less. In many of the races, he carried a penalty, 7 lbs or more, but in some races, like the Hyde Park Stakes at Epsom on April 29, there were no penalties. In that race, the winner's prize was 500 sovs, and there was "an enormous entry", but because of his presence, that entry dwindled to 5, and he won 'easily' by 3/4 of a length, going off 1/4 fav.
This was his record for his first 11 races, with dates, venues, and field sizes.
Mar 24. Lincoln. 16 ran.
Mar 26. Liverpool. 10.
Apr 15. Northampton. 6.
Apr 16. Northampton. 6.
Apr 28. Epsom. 2. (29 entered)
Apr 29. Epsom. 5.
Apr 30. Sandown. 5.
May 19. Newmarket. 4.
? Windsor ?
May 26. Manchester. 3.
May 27. Manchester. 3.
He then won at Ascot, (but side-stepped Saraband who took the big 2yo race), beating a moderate lot, including two 3yos, in a weight-for-age race with 4 runners.
Ante-post betting for the 1886 Derby opened on July 27. Just 2 horses were quoted. They went 7/1 Saraband, 100/9 The Bard (by which time he'd notched 3 more wins, one a w/o). Bets were noted of £150 on Saraband, and 2 bets of £90 on The Bard. At that time, Ormonde had not yet run, and Minting had had one run, winning the Seaton Delaval at Newcastle at the beginning of July in a canter by 6 lengths at 5/4, presumably not quite hitting the headlines, but that would change when he cantered up again at Goodwood on July 30.
Ask Betfair to offer a £1m bonus for doing it and you will get one (Nap).
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