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i see Jason Ward is pot hunting a couple of listed races on Saturday and Monday at Craon. Thats a new course to me, Pierre Bazire rides Wee Jim on Saturday, Alexis Badel rides Maifalki on Monday. any info on the track and jockeys greatly appreciated and if you get a chance to look at the races can you post up your thoughts.
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speaks french like Joey Barton
done well this year - unfortunate blip in post race wolvs?
not sure people his age change their manner of speech, just might be more careful now.
he has Deltâ, i think they have given him a couple more.
in fairness to him GC i have seen loads of stable videos and he always comes across okay, maybe the nerves got to him lol
my mate Dougie has splashed the cash again Deltâ , sole owner this time. they are desperate to find him a really good one.
Here's some info about the course - the map looks like three Fontwells tangled up by a drunk:
http://www.lescourseshippiques.com/hippodrome/471/craon.html
I'll take a look at those races and get back to you in the morning.
http://www.lescourseshippiques.com/hippodrome/471/craon.html
I'll take a look at those races and get back to you in the morning.
ward bought a couple at donny sales a bated breath filly @ 12.5k and a charm spirit filly @ 9.5k.
lamont racing- epaulette filly @ 11k.
lamont racing- epaulette filly @ 11k.
cheers KIW , saw pictures of the Epaulette filly she is a big beast for this stage of her life
i could not remember epaulette but just checked and see he's a australian horse.
haven't checked out that site for ages delta, whats a crottley classic(sounds a bit iffy)
haven't checked out that site for ages delta, whats a crottley classic(sounds a bit iffy)
Wales Racing Club and Classic Club update Crottly 1 31 Aug 18 08:58
Morning Dealer,
The 2-y-old race this afternoon, like a lot of French 2-y-old races this season, has 50% British based runners. Best of those is likely to be Julius Limbani (Archie Watson), who has twice run 4th in Listed races in France and both of those were better races than this. He doesn't have a handicap rating here, but the French have him on approx 94, which is 7lbs or more ahead of all but one of these. The other contender is the filly Early Time, winner of her first two starts over 7F, then 4th in a 6F Listed race - all those races at provincial tracks. The step up in trip should suit her, and her French rating is a pound higher than Julius Limbani. Wee Jim will need to improve about a stone on what he's shown so far to be competitive with those two. Bazire is a run of the mill jockey, most often seen in claimers and low grade handicaps riding for the brothers A+G Botti.
The 12F race on Monday looks a lot more competitive and all the seven French runners are rated 90+, so hard to see Maifalki making much of an impact. Badel is a good quality rider, 43 winners this year, and also won a Listed race at Kempton back in April. Highest rated in this field is the 5-y-old Alignement, a winner over 10F at Maisons Lafitte and Longchamp before being outclassed in a Group 3 at Deauville. The trip is a potential problem for him - he ran below his best in the Grand Prix de Cagnes Sur Mer over 2,500 metres earlier this year. My preference would be the only 3-y-old, French Risk, a three time winner this year, twice over this trip, including the Swiss Derby. He ran a respectable third in a Listed race at Vichy last time and that form looks as good as anything in this field.
Here's a link to a good film of the 2016 running of the 12F race that shows what the course is like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2am3dKlmRw8
You'll be able to view a reurn of the races this weekend on that site I mentioned earlier - click the link 'Toutes Les Videos' and give the course and date you want to watch.
The 2-y-old race this afternoon, like a lot of French 2-y-old races this season, has 50% British based runners. Best of those is likely to be Julius Limbani (Archie Watson), who has twice run 4th in Listed races in France and both of those were better races than this. He doesn't have a handicap rating here, but the French have him on approx 94, which is 7lbs or more ahead of all but one of these. The other contender is the filly Early Time, winner of her first two starts over 7F, then 4th in a 6F Listed race - all those races at provincial tracks. The step up in trip should suit her, and her French rating is a pound higher than Julius Limbani. Wee Jim will need to improve about a stone on what he's shown so far to be competitive with those two. Bazire is a run of the mill jockey, most often seen in claimers and low grade handicaps riding for the brothers A+G Botti.
The 12F race on Monday looks a lot more competitive and all the seven French runners are rated 90+, so hard to see Maifalki making much of an impact. Badel is a good quality rider, 43 winners this year, and also won a Listed race at Kempton back in April. Highest rated in this field is the 5-y-old Alignement, a winner over 10F at Maisons Lafitte and Longchamp before being outclassed in a Group 3 at Deauville. The trip is a potential problem for him - he ran below his best in the Grand Prix de Cagnes Sur Mer over 2,500 metres earlier this year. My preference would be the only 3-y-old, French Risk, a three time winner this year, twice over this trip, including the Swiss Derby. He ran a respectable third in a Listed race at Vichy last time and that form looks as good as anything in this field.
Here's a link to a good film of the 2016 running of the 12F race that shows what the course is like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2am3dKlmRw8
You'll be able to view a reurn of the races this weekend on that site I mentioned earlier - click the link 'Toutes Les Videos' and give the course and date you want to watch.
No problem - glad you pointed out the Listed races as I might have missed them. Tend to think of Craon as a jumping centre and in fact the biggest prize money on offer during this three day meeting is for a Listed 3M 6F cross country race tomorrow, which has total money of 75,000 euros. The French tracks to the west of Paris are all very keen on their cross country chases and they get bigger crowds for them than Longchamp or Chantilly usually manage.
Often spek to a guy who visits Paris for a few months a year, l'm amazed how cheap it is to go racing. He pays a few euros for a pass that gets him into all the surrounding tracks.
The whole finanical strucgture over there is totally different to what we're used to. Most races below Listed/Group level there is no entry fee - the jockeys riding fee is only payable if the horse is out of the money and it's much lower than ours anyway - every horse trained in France has an annual 3000 euro transport allowance for trips to the races paid by the racing authority - and as you rightly point out, admission charges are negligible.
I've followed the career of a horse called Montesquieu (I tried to persuade a couple of trainers to buy him out of a claimer when he was a 3-y-old). He's now an 8-y-old, has run 96 times and won 15 of them, all in claimers and handicaps. He never reached a handicap rating higher than 81 in his career. But including the owners premiums paid to locally trained horses, he's collected 431,000 euros in prize money.
I reckon a horse with that rating here would have to win at least 50 races to match that total!
I've followed the career of a horse called Montesquieu (I tried to persuade a couple of trainers to buy him out of a claimer when he was a 3-y-old). He's now an 8-y-old, has run 96 times and won 15 of them, all in claimers and handicaps. He never reached a handicap rating higher than 81 in his career. But including the owners premiums paid to locally trained horses, he's collected 431,000 euros in prize money.
I reckon a horse with that rating here would have to win at least 50 races to match that total!
thats some difference, our racing is so diluted and far too many getting a piece of the pie.
many thanks again and good luck over the weekend
many thanks again and good luck over the weekend
i only read the RP report but seems like WEE JIM ran a strange race or was given a poor ride?
I think TA said you can watch replays from the site he linked, will have a look later tonight. It does read strange on RP and in the end he wasnt beaten that far. €2.5k for finishing 5th so i suppose that easily pays the expenses with one to run
i tried that link dealer but failed miserably(computers and french not my strong point)
I've downloaded it from Equidia, here's a link:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qtCiDpohGWxFnUboUn0HtjFoIp3fjfcA
Odd race all round, run at a much quicker early pace than normal in France, winner came from pretty much last to first, but they still all finished in a heap. Wee Jim certainly not given a good ride, although he didn't look to be helping the jockey much either.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qtCiDpohGWxFnUboUn0HtjFoIp3fjfcA
Odd race all round, run at a much quicker early pace than normal in France, winner came from pretty much last to first, but they still all finished in a heap. Wee Jim certainly not given a good ride, although he didn't look to be helping the jockey much either.
Cheers TA you're a star
Many thanks again for your input.
Many thanks again for your input.
Some decent, knowledgeable posters on this thread, WD guys.
Here's the text commentary on the closing stages:
13:58:34Provisoire : 5/8-7-4-1
13:58:28Victoire our Maifalki en principe, mais photo
13:58:13peut-être
13:58:095 vient gagner à la fin
13:58:05mais 5 vient fort
13:58:028-5-7-4-1
13:57:588-5-7
13:57:558 repart facile
Which means 8 (French King) leads going easily, but then 5(Maifalki) comes strong to win in a photo - then 4 seconds later he puts 'perhaps' !
Maifalki confirmed the winner - great stuff for connections and just shows how weak some of these French races are for those that take the chance. Goodness knows what the UK handicapper will make of that!
13:58:34Provisoire : 5/8-7-4-1
13:58:28Victoire our Maifalki en principe, mais photo
13:58:13peut-être
13:58:095 vient gagner à la fin
13:58:05mais 5 vient fort
13:58:028-5-7-4-1
13:57:588-5-7
13:57:558 repart facile
Which means 8 (French King) leads going easily, but then 5(Maifalki) comes strong to win in a photo - then 4 seconds later he puts 'perhaps' !
Maifalki confirmed the winner - great stuff for connections and just shows how weak some of these French races are for those that take the chance. Goodness knows what the UK handicapper will make of that!
really pleased for them, he has always thought a lot about the horse and he turned down a very decent offer after it won the 2 races at 3. seem to go backwards after that but Ward looks to have got him back.
That was a seriously good ride to win - connections of French Risk must feel they were mugged as he looked sure to collect. Here's the film:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L5tI3VJRo1VA-2cZEQtOVL5MLnPElTyX
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L5tI3VJRo1VA-2cZEQtOVL5MLnPElTyX
great ride, dont know how that got up
many thanks again
many thanks again
He also raised Wee Jim to 92 the previous week(from 80 I think) for his fifth place. Both very harsh imo, UK handicapper unable to recognise the different level for Listed races here from those in France. It's a big price to pay for the initiative shown by connections.
In the case of Maifalki, he's simply assumed that French King ran exactly to his French handicap rating of 45.5 and put Maifalki on the same mark.
In the case of Maifalki, he's simply assumed that French King ran exactly to his French handicap rating of 45.5 and put Maifalki on the same mark.
blog on Ann Duffields site linking the R Hughes RP article re handicapping, worth a read
FOLLOWING THE FRENCH?
10-September-2018
by Hayley
Richard Hughes wrote an interesting article for the Racing Post, featured yesterday, in which he expressed his views regarding handicapping.
“My first preference would be to limit ratings rises in handicaps to winners.”
Racing can be an incredibly rewarding but frustrating sport in equal measures. Horses that win races go up in the handicap and horses that lose races go up in the handicap, only the latter don’t collect the winning prize money or the coveted ‘1’ next to their name.
“The main problem with the way we handicap horses in Britain and Ireland is the system encourages people to cheat.”
The problem is, when you honestly and openly campaign a horse that consistently runs well but without winning, the horse will find it very difficult to win a race when it is continually hiked in the weights and punished for running well but ultimately losing.
Take Rosina for example. As a two-year-old, Rosina won three races and finished a creditable sixth in an Ayr Listed race won by Quiet Reflection. Her opening mark was 73 – she ended the season on 90, a climb of 17 pounds. This is not a criticism of the handicapper, she’d had a great season and her rating reflected as much. However, her three-year-old season did not go so well. As a result of her decent rating and now chucked in with the older horses, Rosina struggled. She ran well and went close on several occasions but a win remained elusive. She had eight starts during that season and didn’t win any of them. She had slipped by only eight pounds by the end of the year. Her owner Jen, who had a capable filly that enjoyed her racing, was then faced with a difficult decision to make – to keep in training a horse that was struggling to win, send her to the sales, or go to stud. Happily, she kept her in training and as a four-year-old, after two more fruitless races, Rosina returned to the winner’s enclosure - and was promptly raised back up the handicap. She has since won again at five but we remain in the vicious cycle – such is the nature of handicapping in this country.
“What I'm calling for is what already happens in France. There, if you finish second in a handicap at Longchamp, Chantilly or anywhere else, you don't go up in the weights. The same applies to all losing horses. It is only the winner's mark that can be increased.”
Rosina is quirky, she often has a mind of her own which is apparent for all to see – it’s very clear when Rosie wants to win and when she’d rather sulk out the back, but she is always there to do her best. Something which has both helped and hindered her way to the winner’s enclosure.
“Owners are involved in the sport because they want to win. Not enough get to win, or feel they have a realistic chance of winning. That needs to change. My way of changing it would be rebuilding the handicap system so that in handicaps only winners can have their ratings increased.”
“Part of the problem is the prize-money dished out to placed horses is so poor. Prize-money in general isn't great, but the overall situation would be made much better if the cake was split differently.”
My first preference would be to limit ratings rises in handicaps to winners. If that cannot be done I would love to see prize-money distributed more fairly, so there is no longer such a chasm between what you earn when you win and what you earn when you nearly win. If we could do both, so much the better.
You can read Richard’s article here.
What are your thoughts?
FOLLOWING THE FRENCH?
10-September-2018
by Hayley
Richard Hughes wrote an interesting article for the Racing Post, featured yesterday, in which he expressed his views regarding handicapping.
“My first preference would be to limit ratings rises in handicaps to winners.”
Racing can be an incredibly rewarding but frustrating sport in equal measures. Horses that win races go up in the handicap and horses that lose races go up in the handicap, only the latter don’t collect the winning prize money or the coveted ‘1’ next to their name.
“The main problem with the way we handicap horses in Britain and Ireland is the system encourages people to cheat.”
The problem is, when you honestly and openly campaign a horse that consistently runs well but without winning, the horse will find it very difficult to win a race when it is continually hiked in the weights and punished for running well but ultimately losing.
Take Rosina for example. As a two-year-old, Rosina won three races and finished a creditable sixth in an Ayr Listed race won by Quiet Reflection. Her opening mark was 73 – she ended the season on 90, a climb of 17 pounds. This is not a criticism of the handicapper, she’d had a great season and her rating reflected as much. However, her three-year-old season did not go so well. As a result of her decent rating and now chucked in with the older horses, Rosina struggled. She ran well and went close on several occasions but a win remained elusive. She had eight starts during that season and didn’t win any of them. She had slipped by only eight pounds by the end of the year. Her owner Jen, who had a capable filly that enjoyed her racing, was then faced with a difficult decision to make – to keep in training a horse that was struggling to win, send her to the sales, or go to stud. Happily, she kept her in training and as a four-year-old, after two more fruitless races, Rosina returned to the winner’s enclosure - and was promptly raised back up the handicap. She has since won again at five but we remain in the vicious cycle – such is the nature of handicapping in this country.
“What I'm calling for is what already happens in France. There, if you finish second in a handicap at Longchamp, Chantilly or anywhere else, you don't go up in the weights. The same applies to all losing horses. It is only the winner's mark that can be increased.”
Rosina is quirky, she often has a mind of her own which is apparent for all to see – it’s very clear when Rosie wants to win and when she’d rather sulk out the back, but she is always there to do her best. Something which has both helped and hindered her way to the winner’s enclosure.
“Owners are involved in the sport because they want to win. Not enough get to win, or feel they have a realistic chance of winning. That needs to change. My way of changing it would be rebuilding the handicap system so that in handicaps only winners can have their ratings increased.”
“Part of the problem is the prize-money dished out to placed horses is so poor. Prize-money in general isn't great, but the overall situation would be made much better if the cake was split differently.”
My first preference would be to limit ratings rises in handicaps to winners. If that cannot be done I would love to see prize-money distributed more fairly, so there is no longer such a chasm between what you earn when you win and what you earn when you nearly win. If we could do both, so much the better.
You can read Richard’s article here.
What are your thoughts?
new owners, if they understood the handicapping system, which is where most will pitch, would never get involved ....
thanks for the article, really interesting reading.
Wee Jim probably going to Cologne next, Maifalki i believe may go to Saint Cloud, i would imagine with his size a few jump trainers might show an interest in him
Wee Jim probably going to Cologne next, Maifalki i believe may go to Saint Cloud, i would imagine with his size a few jump trainers might show an interest in him
Dealer,
I'm guessing that race at Saint Cloud would be the 1m 6f Listed Prix Scaramouche on Oct 5th. The problem with selling him for jumping would be his age, as most stables would reckon that buying a horse off the flat that turns six during the season would be too late to start a hurdling career. At the very least, it would limit the price they'd be willing to pay.
I'm guessing that race at Saint Cloud would be the 1m 6f Listed Prix Scaramouche on Oct 5th. The problem with selling him for jumping would be his age, as most stables would reckon that buying a horse off the flat that turns six during the season would be too late to start a hurdling career. At the very least, it would limit the price they'd be willing to pay.
Anorak
What is the current position with James Reveley?
I see he only has 2 rides at Auteuil, neither of which is for Maccaire
Has he eased off after winning the championship or is he simply out of favour?
What is the current position with James Reveley?
I see he only has 2 rides at Auteuil, neither of which is for Maccaire
Has he eased off after winning the championship or is he simply out of favour?
I don't have any specific facts, but my assumption is that Reveley has opted to reduce the number of rides he takes, maybe concentrating on the better horses and/or races, given that in France, almost all of the income for a jockey comes from his percentage of the prize money, not from riding fees.
This year, he's only had 120 rides in total, compared to almost 400 in 2016. But he's still collected 1.34M euros in prize money, so his share makes him much better paid than most NH riders here.
Macaire will always need to have multple rides available, as he has up to thousand runners each year all over the country. Reveley did ride two for him yesterday at Compiegne, which is near Paris.
This year, he's only had 120 rides in total, compared to almost 400 in 2016. But he's still collected 1.34M euros in prize money, so his share makes him much better paid than most NH riders here.
Macaire will always need to have multple rides available, as he has up to thousand runners each year all over the country. Reveley did ride two for him yesterday at Compiegne, which is near Paris.
Thanks for your update
I was unaware the majority of fees comes from the percentage of prize money , therefore it make sense to concentrate on the big money races
I was unaware the majority of fees comes from the percentage of prize money , therefore it make sense to concentrate on the big money races
Some useful info here on the finances of French racing:
http://www.ejoneillracing.co.uk/cms/why-finance/
http://www.ejoneillracing.co.uk/cms/why-finance/
see the 3rd at Craon won a group 2 at Longchamp on saturday and was promptly sold for £310K
Lot 26 ALIGNEMENT , winner of the Gr.2 Qatar Prix Dollar today at @paris_longchamp is bought for €310,000 by @ChantillyBstock, from @WertheimerSales
Dealer,
Yes, I noticed that - connections will be hoping the UK handicapper missed it, as Alignement has been raised another 4kgs by his French equivalent.
Also spotted that Wee Jim has been entered for the Newmarket sale at the end of this month.
Yes, I noticed that - connections will be hoping the UK handicapper missed it, as Alignement has been raised another 4kgs by his French equivalent.
Also spotted that Wee Jim has been entered for the Newmarket sale at the end of this month.
cheers TA was unaware that Wee Jim was going to the sales. i would imagine Maifalki may well go as well, if the price is right
Maifalki was just offered as a supplementary entry at todays Doncaster sale, but was led out unsold, faling to attract a bid at his reserve price of £100,000.
cheers TA, didnt know that, i think he thought he would get more for it.
Lot 26 ALIGNEMENT , winner of the Gr.2 Qatar Prix Dollar today at @paris_longchamp is bought for €310,000 by @ChantillyBstock, from @WertheimerSales
Previous connections got a good price and sold it at the right time.
Previous connections got a good price and sold it at the right time.
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