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09 Feb 18
17:05
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Date Joined:
22 May 02
At Betfair, we’re always trying to improve the betting experience. Furthermore, we believe we have one of the best Horse Racing products on the market, particularly when the race has already begun. Despite this, there’s still room for improvement. We’d like to enhance our offering further by removing the in-running bet delay, which is currently set to 1 second. We believe this would allow bets to be matched quicker and more frequently, whilst also improving the success rate of Cash Out and our new Auto Cash Out functionality.
We really value your feedback, so please comment with any considerations that you have on this topic below.
We really value your feedback, so please comment with any considerations that you have on this topic below.
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Call me a cynic but.............. Betfair interested in their customers opinion ?? The same customers who have been treated with utter contempt for years ?? Maybe you should ask our opinion on charges ranging from 22% to 62% based on some historical data that can go back further than ten years !!
Might just be a coincidence but the competition gathering pace and offering much better terms may have awoken the complacent beast from its slumbers.
You say we "have" the best in running product but that may soon be "had" and having zero delay on bet placement is a little like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic,in my opinion of course.
Might just be a coincidence but the competition gathering pace and offering much better terms may have awoken the complacent beast from its slumbers.
You say we "have" the best in running product but that may soon be "had" and having zero delay on bet placement is a little like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic,in my opinion of course.
Think this is a great idea. Too often I strike prices in the box and still there then wait the 1 second
and only part matched.......often for tiny amounts. Anyone playing late off delayed pics have no one to blame
bar themselves. I like to play mid-race or 2/3rds in. Will definitely make me play more often.
RUK pics are well playable inrunning imo.......those waiting for something clear cut will never make
it pay unless on course/facetiming pics.
and only part matched.......often for tiny amounts. Anyone playing late off delayed pics have no one to blame
bar themselves. I like to play mid-race or 2/3rds in. Will definitely make me play more often.
RUK pics are well playable inrunning imo.......those waiting for something clear cut will never make
it pay unless on course/facetiming pics.
Agadolphin the same price will still dissapear as the 1s who are taking them will still be taking them 1 second earlier than you. Nothing changes in that aspect.
I hope they do it, reducing the amount of time the BF bot has to determine value against what others are offering at any one time is a good thing.
Though I do wonder what it would be like. Those who think getting rid of it will save stay at home players on fallers havn't considered that at present on course bets also take 1 second to match, so they will still lose their money.
I think the prices will be all over the place, once markets are opened IR the money disappears anyway, the thing that people watch fluctuates and if prices match instantly then they will come and go in a flash. All those 2 quid bets will vanish about as soon as they appear and people might click on a price only for the price to have jumped to the next price that they didnt want.
But FI, lets do it, take the stabilisers off and lets all go down in a blaze of glory.
Though I do wonder what it would be like. Those who think getting rid of it will save stay at home players on fallers havn't considered that at present on course bets also take 1 second to match, so they will still lose their money.
I think the prices will be all over the place, once markets are opened IR the money disappears anyway, the thing that people watch fluctuates and if prices match instantly then they will come and go in a flash. All those 2 quid bets will vanish about as soon as they appear and people might click on a price only for the price to have jumped to the next price that they didnt want.
But FI, lets do it, take the stabilisers off and lets all go down in a blaze of glory.
More often the prices aren't taken but cancelled. To cancel a bet the 1 second delay doesn't apply.
So,in theory, it will be easier against the person who puts a price up and either manually cancels
or waits for fill or kill.
So,in theory, it will be easier against the person who puts a price up and either manually cancels
or waits for fill or kill.
People bet on what they see.
At home players would have to only bet upto within 4 strides of a jump.
At home players would have to only bet upto within 4 strides of a jump.
!) Remove it
2) faster live pictures
3) is it legal for a BF bot to stalk me when I enter a price ??
2) faster live pictures
3) is it legal for a BF bot to stalk me when I enter a price ??
Faster live pictures - YES (but never gonna happen)
Remove delay - NO.
The whole point of the delay was to give people at home some protection, imo.
Remove delay - NO.
The whole point of the delay was to give people at home some protection, imo.
if i try to place a bet on an in play football match they suspend and post goals that are going to be scored in 4 or 5 MINUTES time.
on in play horse racing usually they suspend and post the winner,but they allow me to back a loser every time.but never allow me to back the winner,their betting is miles ahead of anything they say is live.
on in play horse racing usually they suspend and post the winner,but they allow me to back a loser every time.but never allow me to back the winner,their betting is miles ahead of anything they say is live.
The delay was introduced to protect slower picture feed bettors, but it was never any use in practice because the pic delay is more than 1 second. So for most people it only functions as an irritant, imo.
It might as well be removed, but the real crux of the matter is obtaining faster pictures. Until that happens, the minority will continue to profit from the majority, delay or no delay.
It might as well be removed, but the real crux of the matter is obtaining faster pictures. Until that happens, the minority will continue to profit from the majority, delay or no delay.
so are bf going to decide by whats peoples opinion in this thread are?
when you look at the live pictures you think its live,but they can slow it down or speed it up and you will not know that its being delayed because the buffer(think thats the word)continues where it was delayed not showing the stall in time.if you can understand.
lcredd 10 Feb 18 13:02
The whole point of the delay was to give people at home some protection, imo.
That is the point of the delay, but to what extent it is effective is debateable.
with the delay:
a slow picture punter puts in a bet, something significant happens, if the significant is good for him, because of the delay his bet isn't accepted, bad for him his bet is taken.
a slow picture punter has an unmatched bet, something significant happens. It is possible that the 1 sec delay allows him to cancel, but I'd have to be convinced that this happens much with slow picture punters, in any case I'm pretty sure that fast picture punters manage to cancel a lot more.
Without the delay (in theory*) the prices that people see they get and those prices are going to be led by fast picture players. So even though they don't have fast pictures they should be unaffected if they take a bet ie the prices should be "true" (even if the information that the slow picture player is using isn't). So without the delay the slow picture player doesn't get disadvantaged. They still get scooped if they leave bets up, but some fast picture players do as well by the fastest of the fast fingers.
Overall I think the it won't make much difference. People who leave bets up for a long time are going to lose under both conditions, but people wanting to bet what is available won't be so disadvantaged and won't get frustrated when they bet something, don't get taken and the horse wins.
*The major problem here is the tech set up of different users might mean that they still don't get the price they click on.
The whole point of the delay was to give people at home some protection, imo.
That is the point of the delay, but to what extent it is effective is debateable.
with the delay:
a slow picture punter puts in a bet, something significant happens, if the significant is good for him, because of the delay his bet isn't accepted, bad for him his bet is taken.
a slow picture punter has an unmatched bet, something significant happens. It is possible that the 1 sec delay allows him to cancel, but I'd have to be convinced that this happens much with slow picture punters, in any case I'm pretty sure that fast picture punters manage to cancel a lot more.
Without the delay (in theory*) the prices that people see they get and those prices are going to be led by fast picture players. So even though they don't have fast pictures they should be unaffected if they take a bet ie the prices should be "true" (even if the information that the slow picture player is using isn't). So without the delay the slow picture player doesn't get disadvantaged. They still get scooped if they leave bets up, but some fast picture players do as well by the fastest of the fast fingers.
Overall I think the it won't make much difference. People who leave bets up for a long time are going to lose under both conditions, but people wanting to bet what is available won't be so disadvantaged and won't get frustrated when they bet something, don't get taken and the horse wins.
*The major problem here is the tech set up of different users might mean that they still don't get the price they click on.
ALL BEEN PROPER HOOKED IMO
STRANGE EVERYOTHER THREAD OF THERES STAYED ON TOP
WELL PLAYED LOL
STRANGE EVERYOTHER THREAD OF THERES STAYED ON TOP
WELL PLAYED LOL
dustybin: people might click on a price only for the price to have jumped to the next price that they didnt want.
That's nothing to do with any delay in placement. That's down to whichever refresh rate you've set. This particular change won't make any difference.
That's nothing to do with any delay in placement. That's down to whichever refresh rate you've set. This particular change won't make any difference.
This is good news for those on faster pictures but not for the vast majority. IR on racing is already a restrictive game, this just makes it easier to hoover and possibly more premium charge for betfair in the short term.
My betting IR has been greatly reduced due to the difficulty of getting matched due to the seemingly drop in liquidity, this will just means fewer people will leave bets up and make matters worse, a horse breaking down will mean all orders will be immediately swept up and also orders/lays will need to be cancelled further from fences etc than currently.
As said, pictures need to be speeded up to the minimum delay and a processing delay kept in place that protects the orders/lays from being swept up by those watching on close circuit pictures.
My betting IR has been greatly reduced due to the difficulty of getting matched due to the seemingly drop in liquidity, this will just means fewer people will leave bets up and make matters worse, a horse breaking down will mean all orders will be immediately swept up and also orders/lays will need to be cancelled further from fences etc than currently.
As said, pictures need to be speeded up to the minimum delay and a processing delay kept in place that protects the orders/lays from being swept up by those watching on close circuit pictures.
who leaves bets up these days? is bot orientated nowadays.
other than those doing the keep bets, probably a very small % of what it could be, but i do, sometimes, depending on the bet, but only in the 'safe' windows that will become narrower
its no longer a big deal mind, when home users lose pictures the visual impression of liquidity generally doesnt seem to change much, would i be compensated by getting matched, i doubt it
its no longer a big deal mind, when home users lose pictures the visual impression of liquidity generally doesnt seem to change much, would i be compensated by getting matched, i doubt it
Willie Shafter.
who leaves bets up these days? is bot orientated nowadays.
Value seekers, DOB-ers, reverse DOB-ers, pre-race backers, some pre-race layers, and I'm sure many others.
Anyway, what difference does it make who puts them up and why?
who leaves bets up these days? is bot orientated nowadays.
Value seekers, DOB-ers, reverse DOB-ers, pre-race backers, some pre-race layers, and I'm sure many others.
Anyway, what difference does it make who puts them up and why?
willie any thoughts on the speed of ruk for ireland when it switches?
SIS will be passing the pics to RUK so could be slower was my guess
very few on track players in Ireland so as long as its on a par with LV should be ok
I think Leicester and Taunton still send their pics via sis to ruk and they are ok, same as rest of ruk pics.
That's not 100% though so might be wrong..
That's not 100% though so might be wrong..
lol not slower than atr (is that even possible) but even 2 secs would be a disaster.
tips - lots of facetime action in ireland
not sure about leicester and taunton - they were slower than usual on RUK for a while werent they. Still raw feeds for those tracks so maybe SIS is involved.
tips - lots of facetime action in ireland
not sure about leicester and taunton - they were slower than usual on RUK for a while werent they. Still raw feeds for those tracks so maybe SIS is involved.
Aye I think they were slower 1st few meetings they moved over to ruk from atr but have now speeded up.
the technology is there to send it down the broadband route, sky are going that way for the future trying to cut down on the use of dishes, aren't irish tracks mostly fibre optic, no brainer
ruk norm run their platform on the same speed -1.3 ish...the feed at leic is behind ruk so they still use fibre there. Ire will become playable when on ruk (if they use fibre & fibre is already there)
plenty track players/callers in ire.
plenty track players/callers in ire.
Remove the delays in horse racing markets and half time football markets
Very much in favour of removing the delay. Long overdue imho.
Should have been removed years ago as it is more of a hindrance than anything else. Hopefully this happens soon to give us a chance to test things out before Cheltenham.
what difference will this make to home players there been no delay , how can you beat track players and the army of facetimers , the horse racing inrunning will continue to decline without the introduction of faster feeds available to all
Excellent idea. The delay is outdated and only favours those who hoover up during events in races. Long overdue
Thank you for your feedback – it really is appreciated.
Whilst we asked about the delay, there has clearly been two other topics, which we have replied to below:
1. Can we get racing pictures in full screen?
a. We have a contractual obligation set by our content providers around the maximum size the video can be. We are aware of other operators who are not following these requirements. As it was correctly pointed out, we do show fullscreen video for US racing, but that is because we receive US Racing pictures from a different provider to UK and Irish Racing.
2. The latency of Live Video pictures needs to be reduced to make In-Play racing a more attractive betting proposition.
a. A point that frustrates us here too. As you are already aware, the pictures don’t come directly from Betfair, they come from our providers. We see around a 2 second latency on our desktop feed for both RUK and ATR. Incidentally, our live video from ATR licenced tracks is consistently ahead of the ATR TV channel. We are continuously working with our providers to attempt to reduce the delay as much as possible, however, the delays we see on Betfair are in-line which what we see from our competitors too. We are also looking at alternatives to pictures to improve the in-running experience.
We are continuing to discuss the proposed changes to the delay with our customers and remain open for feedback. What we can confirm, is that we will trial the change before implementing anything permanently.
Whilst we asked about the delay, there has clearly been two other topics, which we have replied to below:
1. Can we get racing pictures in full screen?
a. We have a contractual obligation set by our content providers around the maximum size the video can be. We are aware of other operators who are not following these requirements. As it was correctly pointed out, we do show fullscreen video for US racing, but that is because we receive US Racing pictures from a different provider to UK and Irish Racing.
2. The latency of Live Video pictures needs to be reduced to make In-Play racing a more attractive betting proposition.
a. A point that frustrates us here too. As you are already aware, the pictures don’t come directly from Betfair, they come from our providers. We see around a 2 second latency on our desktop feed for both RUK and ATR. Incidentally, our live video from ATR licenced tracks is consistently ahead of the ATR TV channel. We are continuously working with our providers to attempt to reduce the delay as much as possible, however, the delays we see on Betfair are in-line which what we see from our competitors too. We are also looking at alternatives to pictures to improve the in-running experience.
We are continuing to discuss the proposed changes to the delay with our customers and remain open for feedback. What we can confirm, is that we will trial the change before implementing anything permanently.
Betfair Customer Services, something I would like to know is this, LV feeds are produced independently of ATR for their tracks (clearly they need to be), yet for RUK tracks the LV feeds are taken from the RUK feed (and doesnt short circuit them as with ATR), this must create an addition delay
Do you know why this happens? and have you tried to take a more direct route with RUK tracks?
Do you know why this happens? and have you tried to take a more direct route with RUK tracks?
We see around a 2 second latency on our desktop feed for both RUK and ATR.
We are continuously working with our providers to attempt to reduce the delay as much as possible
if Mr Smith can point a phone at on-course pictures and stream them to people at home with near zero delay , surely betfair the billion pound company in conjunction with RUK and ATR could come up with something similar but in a more professional way . we know it can be done , which is more frustrating for us the customers to see no improvements in picture speeds for 10 years or so .
however, the delays we see on Betfair are in-line which what we see from our competitors too
in fairness , the delay makes no difference to your competitors and they do not provide in running betting in the same way as betfair do , your competitors only concern is to suspend betting on time so they do not take bets after a furlong or so has been run in a race .
if Mr Smith can point a phone at on-course pictures and stream them to people at home with near zero delay , surely betfair the billion pound company in conjunction with RUK and ATR could come up with something similar but in a more professional way . we know it can be done , which is more frustrating for us the customers to see no improvements in picture speeds for 10 years or so .
however, the delays we see on Betfair are in-line which what we see from our competitors too
in fairness , the delay makes no difference to your competitors and they do not provide in running betting in the same way as betfair do , your competitors only concern is to suspend betting on time so they do not take bets after a furlong or so has been run in a race .
. We are also looking at alternatives to pictures to improve the in-running experience.
We are continuing to discuss the proposed changes to the delay with our customers and remain open for feedback. What we can confirm, is that we will trial the change before implementing anything permanently.
Can you elaborate ? What alternatives ?
We are continuing to discuss the proposed changes to the delay with our customers and remain open for feedback. What we can confirm, is that we will trial the change before implementing anything permanently.
Can you elaborate ? What alternatives ?
Alternative will be someone shouting down a phone line and passed onto us 2 seconds later
They could have sold fast pictures for thousands to in-runners, now there is things like teamviewer so if one person buys them he can pass them onto others. Yet another reason THEY will deny the pics,,,,
our live video from ATR licenced tracks is consistently ahead of the ATR TV channel.
Worrying if they think that is something to brag about too.
Worrying if they think that is something to brag about too.
you're forgetting the pics arnt theirs to supply as live.
the pics are owned by bookmakers who dont want to aid in running.
Yes I'm in favour of removal of the IP Bet Delay. ASAP PLEASE
Can you also stop settling win markets so quickly.
This is stopping most people betting on possible stewards or photo markets, losing Betfair commission.
Well aware there is a another stewards market but not everyone is and the liquidity matched on these is piitance compared
to what gets matched when the original win market is re opened for them. tia
This is stopping most people betting on possible stewards or photo markets, losing Betfair commission.
Well aware there is a another stewards market but not everyone is and the liquidity matched on these is piitance compared
to what gets matched when the original win market is re opened for them. tia
Its funny how the narrative over the delay of pics gets attention when its out of bf's hands.
Yet PC was completely their creation and imo was the single biggest disincentive for people to use the exchange (the pic speed used to be much larger yet there was greater liquidity...and by liquidity Im not referring to the amount of money churned on the fave to offset PC)
Yet PC was completely their creation and imo was the single biggest disincentive for people to use the exchange (the pic speed used to be much larger yet there was greater liquidity...and by liquidity Im not referring to the amount of money churned on the fave to offset PC)
^Its funny how the narrative over the delay of pics gets attention when its out of bf's hands
BF "We are continuously working with our providers"
BF "We are continuously working with our providers"
the delay in football is annoying because sportsbook post their up to date, betting in play before the goals are scored,this allows any punter to check any in play bet on sportsbook and then flick back to the exchange and get suspended sign when they click on the team that has scored proving how far advanced your in play is delayed.
sometimes sportsbook adjust their so called in play betting before a game has kicked off ,letting everyone know of an early goal.and when sportsbook are giving real big prices on certain games we all know what is going to happen before it does.
why can you not just run the games in real time and i mean real time,and if its your providers fault ,sack your provider and get a provider that is up to date ,because everyone knows what is going on and it only a matter of time before you lose every customer you have.
now there's real true from the heart feedback but as usual you will not listen ,just like when we all told you about paul cutter and his inovative ideas about improving the exchange.
sometimes sportsbook adjust their so called in play betting before a game has kicked off ,letting everyone know of an early goal.and when sportsbook are giving real big prices on certain games we all know what is going to happen before it does.
why can you not just run the games in real time and i mean real time,and if its your providers fault ,sack your provider and get a provider that is up to date ,because everyone knows what is going on and it only a matter of time before you lose every customer you have.
now there's real true from the heart feedback but as usual you will not listen ,just like when we all told you about paul cutter and his inovative ideas about improving the exchange.
and the fact that the OP suggests that you believe that you are the best just about says it all,have you ever tried betting on other sites "you may learn a thing or two,.
i think that is the main problem YOU BELIEVE /. YOU THINK YOU ARE THE BEST.well believe this"everyone knows what is going on"
i post all this to help not hinder,take the advice i give or carry on as usual,its your company,but please don't shoot the messenger and please don't try to pull the wool over your customers eyes "we know what is going on"thank you for allowing me to post this feedback.
i think that is the main problem YOU BELIEVE /. YOU THINK YOU ARE THE BEST.well believe this"everyone knows what is going on"
i post all this to help not hinder,take the advice i give or carry on as usual,its your company,but please don't shoot the messenger and please don't try to pull the wool over your customers eyes "we know what is going on"thank you for allowing me to post this feedback.
Today would be a good day to trial this, or some day this week with only the AW on.
I think BF should change the name to "Delayed Live Video".
Trade Description ??
Trade Description ??
What exactly are they waiting for? It would have been good to have the delay removed before Cheltenham to have our bets matched more efficiently with all the big fields there.
imo they should also put a TWO SECOND minimum before you can cancel a bet. Why should you be able to change your mind so quickly? It just ruins it for other people who click on a price that gets cancelled if there's even the slightest difference in the horse's chance.
i backed a horse on the place market it was 4.6 - which was on the ungenerous side but i thought i'd click anyway as i hoped it was idling. 4.6 layer cancelled as mine dropped FURTHER back and i got 1.33 
Maybe this comment on page 1 made them think again:
Willie Shafter. 09 Feb 18 19:59 Joined: 15 Jul 04 | Topic/replies: 8,794 | Blogger: Willie Shafter.'s blog
its xmassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
(I'm not arguing against the change: just wondering whether that kind of glee from that kind of winning punter might have been counter-productive.)
Willie Shafter. 09 Feb 18 19:59 Joined: 15 Jul 04 | Topic/replies: 8,794 | Blogger: Willie Shafter.'s blog
its xmassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
(I'm not arguing against the change: just wondering whether that kind of glee from that kind of winning punter might have been counter-productive.)
it benefits those with bets in the system..not with those trying to take them.
They are probably fine tuning and testing the algorithms on their bots before they remove the delay.
Betfair Customer Services 09 Feb 18 17:05
"We’d like to enhance our offering further by removing the in-running bet delay, which is currently set to 1 second."
"We really value your feedback, so please comment with any considerations that you have on this topic..."
Dear Betfair,
You've had 6 months to think about it so would you mind getting back to us?
Thanks.
"We’d like to enhance our offering further by removing the in-running bet delay, which is currently set to 1 second."
"We really value your feedback, so please comment with any considerations that you have on this topic..."
Dear Betfair,
You've had 6 months to think about it so would you mind getting back to us?
Thanks.
Getting rid of the 1 sec delay is a move forward but if u want to increase liquidity ten fold just bring the pictures up to speed
There will always be opposition from the bookies against that happening across a broad range of sports (poss not such an issue with racing, if the saddle cloth / GPS thing ever hits the ground).
SIS is bookmaker owned , so they don't really want to help betfair out with faster streamed pics for horse racing.
at a guess , sky probably own the rights to sports such as tennis, football , golf, etc .
so why has there not been improvement in picture speeds for these sports using betfair live video ?
at a guess , sky probably own the rights to sports such as tennis, football , golf, etc .
so why has there not been improvement in picture speeds for these sports using betfair live video ?
Not sure, PF, but I know for a fact that the picture speeds on BFLV (and other bookie sites) are slowed down to match the Eurosport speed when snooker is shown exclusively on that digital channel....
My assumption would be so that they can protect their exposures and maximise their profits.
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