Timeform Rep on RUK

Jaysus, shes having a go at Frankel now ffs

And she makes some relevant points.

I find the suggestion that Arrogate would beat Frankel on turf ludicrous tbh.

Rachel won that on points i reckon

The 2 horses Timeform rated below Frankel Sea Bird and Brigadier Gerard achieved far more. And I saw all three of them.

I didn't see them. Frankel the best by miles in my living memory. But I think it is hard to make direct comparisons over very different eras. Frankel with the exception of one race where I feel the rider completely misjudged the race (and he still won) looked unbeatable. He destroyed numerous Group One winners. I find it hard to believe the other two horses were far better, though I guess it depends on your criteria.

Desert Orchid achieved more than Sprinter Sacre as an example. I would still say the latter was the more outstanding horse.

Frankel may well have achieved more if connections had allowed him to run in more competitive races. He never ventured further than York and almost always with a pacemaker. Brigadier Gerard and Sea Bird ran in all the top races whereas Frankel ran in just one classic.

good evening sparrow

both the brig and sea bird only ran in one classic also,regarding big races the dewhurst,the st ja

st james palace,qe2,lockinge,queen anne,benson and hedges {brig beaten in}and the champion stakes are pretty big races throw in a couple of sussex stakes he had a fair record.

Evening foxy, I was wrong about the classics but you and I both know that Frankel was not campaigned competitively. You can't compare his racing record with the other 2 in terms of the opposition he faced.  That 2000 guineas field Frankel beat was one of the weakest in many years.
We shall never know how good Frankel was due to the races he should but never ran in.

How was he not campaigned competitively? 10 Group One wins? Ok, he didn't run in the Derby and for my money the horse may not have been as effective at 12f. I don't believe it detracts from his greatness.

i totally agree about his 2,000 guineas and would even admit that the opposition that day were ridden to finish 2nd at best,however his performances as a 4 year old at royal ascot and york were outstanding his queen anne performance the best i have ever seen his juddmonte win only bettered by troy in the 79 derby and the 86 arc he was around for 3 seasons and was champion 2 year old something neither the brig or sea bird were,sea bird finished 7 from 8 the brigadier of course had a fine record beaten only by a derby winner at york ,i never saw either brigadier gerard or sea bird but dont for one minute think they were anything but top class but frankels run of wins in the style he did it was something i wont see again.

Where is brigust1?

The Brigadier was not as effective at 12f but it never stopped him running and winning the King George. He ran over trips from 5 to 12f. Frankel was running over a mile as a 2 year old and was bred to get 12f. Had he run in either the Arc, King George or Breeders Cup then we would have known just how good he was.

I was thinking the same crepello. He would put the case far better than me for the Brigadier.

indeed crepello i keep promising myself not to get involved in frankel debates anymore but cant help myself sometimes.

almost 5 years since we last saw him i would have thought by now everybody would have accepted he was the best racehorse ever to race

Sparrow, I am very confident of how good he was at 8f and 10f. Monstrously so. Would wining a top 12f race automatically make him a better horse?

brigadier was less impressive than frankel in the st james palace a 4 runner race one had won the thirsk classic trial and the diomed stakes one was last in the 2,000 guineas the other had won a maiden,the brigadier got up in the last few strides.

I wanted to see him out of his comfort zone, barton. I just don't think he met the quality of opposition that the other 2 horses came up against. Horses such as Mill Reef and My Swallow were different class to what Frankel came up against. Sea Bird slaughtered some great horses in his time. Here is a quote.......          In their book A Century of Champions, John Randall and Tony Morris rated Sea-Bird the greatest racehorse of the 20th century, one pound ahead of Secretariat and two pounds ahead of Ribot and Brigadier Gerard.

7 seconds slower than frankel as well in that race.mind you kingman was more impressive than the pair of them in that particular race.

You have picked probably his worst ever performance there foxy. Look at what the Brigadier beat in his other races.

Where the hell is brigust. He has forgotten more than I know about Brigadier Gerard.

Fair enough sparrow. They are better qualified to rate horses from those eras than I am. Would argue that being the best horse of the 20th Century (rightly or wrongly judged) does not necessarily make him better than the best horse of the 21st Century though.

cirrus,nathanial,farhh,st nicholas abbey,twice over,excellabration,strong suit,dick turpin,canford cliffs,dream ahead,and treasure beach maybe not mill reefs but not a bad bunch who won plenty of top races.

That might be Arrogate yet, barton. But we will never know and in years to come people will have other things to say. At least I can say that I saw Arkle who hardly anyone would doubt.

i know i did sparrow could not resist it,it would be nice if we could see something 1/2 as good as these three over the coming flat season.

Canford Cliffs was the second coming according to some until Frankel put him firmly in his place.

See him live, Sparrow?

regarding arrogate some right rubbish has won that dubai world cup and as for american racing well i am afraid that doesnt count.

Well we can but hope, foxy.

Don't think anyone would claim that Arkle isn't the best NH horse of all time. I slightly raise my eyebrows about the top horses from that generation being rated quite so far ahead of the likes of Kauto Star and Denman but his record speaks for himself.

Not live I'm afraid barton. My father saw Golden Miller who won 5 gold cups and he said Arkle was in a different league.

sparrow

it would have been interesting to see arkle v kauto at kempton.

Arkle would have sorely tested Kauto's jumping foxy. I think he would have broke his heart as he did with Mill House in the end. He was relentless.

kauto was at the top an awful long time sparrow and on the whole he was a good jumper.

Trying 12f might not have made Frankel a better horse, but it would have given him the opportunity to become a great one. The greatest thoroughbreds for me are the ones who are asked to do the business in adverse conditions, and still find a way to win, even if the ratings they produce are a stone below the ones they've achieved in perfect conditions.

Nijinsky's Leger, Desert Orchid's Gold Cup, the Brigadier's King George ... they were races where horses of the highest class in terms of ratings were all out to get home from second-raters, yet those were also the races which sealed those horses' greatness. The Triple Crown and that endless Doncaster straight, the Gold Cup, left-handed in the mud, and taking up the challenge of the mile and a half trip which has made the breed what it is.

I can understand all sorts of reasons why a great horse might not necessarily make it to post on Derby day itself. But to duck the 12f challenge at every stage, even without the added difficulties of the track, date and atmosphere offered by Derby day itself to contend with, that's just a waste of a good horse.

Yes he was foxy but he wasn't giving 2 and 2 and a half stone to horses like Stalbridge Colonist who himself was placed in 2 gold cup's.

excellent example with nijinsky screaming,a horse often forgotten when people talk about the greats ,nice of ballydoyle to have a crack with camelot hopefully i will see a triple crown before i pop it,saw oh so sharp but that was not quite the same.

sparrow i am fighting a losing battle regarding arkle

Camelot was unfortunate in light of what we now know about the trainer of the winner of that Leger.

Got my doubts that there will ever be another Triple Crown wnner. There's not much respect for the St Leger these days in relation to the Arc.

I remember backing Petoski each way when he beat Oh So Sharp in the King George. I almost felt guilty. 

i had given up on it barton but we nearly got one in 2012 so you never know,if john gosden can get a 2,000 guineas winner he might have a crack at it,ballydoyle as proven in 2012 might have another go.

remember the day well sparrow the king george back then was always a great occasion.

You could argue that another US Triple Crown winner was even more unlikely, considering how weird 12f for a 3yo in June is in the context of American racing. Yet it finally happened.

But you're right that lack of respect (or more accurately fear of defeat) weighs on the Leger. For a nation which supposedly celebrates coming first above all else, it's funny how Americans at the same time seem to respect trying and failing. You only have to compare the numerous failed attempts at the Belmont before American Pharoah with the dreadful way Hamdan ducked the Leger with Nashwan.

My father won a lot of money in the 1950s on Meld the filly who won their version of the Triple Crown. He backed the filly every time she ran and at ante-post prices.

Very true about the Americans, screaming. They never seem to duck a challenge with their horses.

nashwans exceptionally hard race in the king george seemed to finish him he was not the same horse in france,if he had ran in the st leger and got beat he would have been regarded higher than he ended up been, ending up in the arc trial,that said he was a great horse.

Hi guys, diverted here by Sparrow. I spend most of my time in France so miss much of what goes on on here. It's a bit of shell though, don't you think.

Where do I stand on the Brigadier Gerard v Frankel issue? Let me think.

Brigadier Gerard won over a wider range of distances.
He won on a wider range of goings.
He won more Group 1 races
He was unbeaten in 15 races, not 14.
He beat better horses including a Derby and two Arc winners.
He broke 3 course records.

Baffert referred to Secretariat who raced at the same time as Brigadier Gerard with similar credentials.
He won over a wider range of distance than Arrogate.
Won on turf and dirt.
Smashed more course records.
Won more top races.
Beat better horses.

Both Arrogate and Frankel were fortunate in that they were born lucky. The best horse Arrogate beat was California Chrome even the Sporting Life's Ben Linfoot says the other horse he has beaten are second rate.
The best horse Frankel beat was Cirrus des Aigles who had been beaten 27 times before Frankel beat him. A horse who couldn't win a top Group 1 race in the heat of the season only before May or in October. When he ran in races the top horse were trained o win he couldn't win one.

When Dancing Brave raced, like Brigadier Gerard the top horses at 5f, 6f, 1m, 10f and 12f were from the UK and France and Dancing Brave beat them all. When Frankel was racing the top 5f horse was from Hong Kong, the top 6f horse was from Australia, the top miler from the US, the top 10f horse from Australia and the top 12f horse from Germany. And Frankel never met any of them.   

Foxy in the St James Palace Stakes the going was heavy and they had a flag start. When BG met the 2nd horse, Sparkler, a multiple Group 1 winner, he gave him 7lbs and beat him 6 lengths in course record time.

Many, many times I've been asked how BG would get on against Frankel if they met and like everyone else I have no Idea.

So I look at the facts because that is all we have.

Brigadier Gerard won at 5f and Group 1 at 6 furlongs beating horses who won all the top sprint races. So Frankel couldn't out sprint him.
Brigadier Gerard won the King George over 12f on good to soft ground beating for classic winners so Frankel couldn't out stay him.

So on the facts we know there are no tactics Frankel could use to beat BG whereas if they went slow BG could out sprint him and if the went flat out BG could outstay him.

*four

Hope this helps.

As usual, brigust1, a fine defence of your champion ......

As I am sure most of us are, I am a massive fan of both these mighty beasts (and I was pretty good myself!!)

In spite of your evidence brigust1, I have my doubts about the Brigadier out sprinting Frankel ......

I must say the older you get the longer memory lane becomes and these threads bring back some great memories.
I have seen some greats if not at the track then on early tv.
Arkle, Freddie, Stalbridge, What a myth, Rondetto, to name just a few but to grade them is all about opinion as they can only beat what is put in front of them on any given day.
Tracks and fences have changes over the decades and so have the type of horse especially over the sticks with more speedier types introduced than would have run in say the 60s 70s so judging the merits of different era's is at best an educated guess.
Arkle left an impression that is indelible mainly because of distances won by and weight carried but not sure it was as competitive as today.
The flat is probably easier to grade but Time Form can be so misleading and while Willo loves his own opinion it has as many holes in it as anyone's.
From my own hunch I would say B.G is as good as anything I have ever seen but what is definitely true is all great horses are seldom tested because they have frightened the real opposition away and that usually makes for too many small and uninteresting races.
Nijinsky never seemed to be racing and that says quite a lot, Mill Reef much the same.  Anyway great memories.

Good morning Crepello, I hope your legs are a lot better now.

I understand your questioning BG's ability to out sprint Frankel but can I remind you that when BG ran at York in the now named Juddmonte International a week before the race there was a lot of rain and the going looked like being soft at best so in order not to let down the racegoers at York BG was entered in the 5f Group 1 Nunthorpe Stakes to be run on the Thursday. That's how fast he was and don't forget he had just won the King George at Ascot over 12f.
Could you see Frankel ever doing that?

Only the very nostalgic could possibly think Brigadier Gerard was a better horse. The one thing that could have got Frankel beat early on in his career was his tendency to be too keen. Once he had learnt to relax (I'm sure helped by the incredible skill of Sir Henry) he was bombproof. The 4-y-o Frankel wouldn't have just beaten Brigadier Gerard, he would have battered him.

Thanks for your good wishes brigust1 !!!!

We just have to disagree - Frankel had speed to burn - Henry protected his champion and who can blame him for that given where he was at at the time .....

Great champions the both of them - just thinking about them puts a smile on my face.

Arrogate may only have run on dirt but Frankel only ran on turf and never outside England. Arrogate has been all over the USA ( equivalent to Europe ) and now Dubai.

That's OK Crepello we all have our favourites. I try to base my opinion only on the facts not on my opinion, unlike Asparagus.

The facts tell me that Henry Cecil was a top trainer so I suggest running a horse first time out over a straight mile on soft ground does not point to him having speed to burn. Similarly HC never ran him over 12f because he must have thought he would be vulnerable in the stamina department. To think otherwise is not to trust the trainer's judgement. BG did have speed to burn and took on winners in a conditions race over 5 furlongs first time out winning by a hard held 5 lengths and he did run over 12 furlongs on rain softened ground at potentially the stiffest 12f racecourse in the country.
Any other suggestions are purely conjecture and personal opinions. Nothing wrong with that of course but the facts don't back it up.

asparagus
Frankel was held up last in both the Royal Lodge and Dewhurst as a two year old.

One thing I will say in Frankel's favour is that he had to endure the services of Tom Queally. I don't want to be unkind but he was only ever brought over as a job jockey for Barney. He would not be within 7lb of the likes of Mercer etc.

The Brigadier was probably the horse that prompted my interest in horse racing and I have the utmost respect for the top horses from that era. Arkle was before my time but I know the history and would never dream of arguing that any horse was better than him.

That said it isn't difficult to slant any argument. Arrogate was really impressive because he won easily from a position of adversity. Frankel never did anything similar and The Brigadier fell over the line on more than one occasion when tackling soft ground. Over a mile and a half he was at the end of his tether to hold what was not much more than a decent stayer.

Is the thoroughbred bloodline progressing? Ie do they run faster now, than they did say 20 or 30 years ago? Or is that noting to do with progression and just down to the fact that they have no desire to do so like a human would drive them self to run on and break a record?

or that humans have discovered pharmaceuticals

People are saying BG is better than Frankel. What sort of horse would BG have been with todays modern technology and advanced training methods? Also given, technology, training, blood testing feed etc have all advanced, has the racehorse got faster? Are racetimes faster now than BG's or previous eras? Would Sir Roger Bannister be as good as Seb Coe or worse?

It is difficult to know the answer to that McCoy Carp. Until the late 70's the racecourses were set with concrete post and rails so the races were run over exactly the same distance but now they have plastic rails which are moved around ensuring fresh ground and changing race distances every day. Watering has changed as well and the grass is cut much more often now than it used to be. It wasn't unusual for racecourses to let the grass grow to ensure a safe surface to race on. Now with watering everywhere the grass grows more quickly so has to be cut more often. Added to that, racecourses like Ascot, York and Doncaster have had new surfaces relaid and drainage improved.
All I know is when a US journalist on RUK for American Pharoah's Belmont Stakes race said they have enough evidence now to know that the American racehorses are not as fast as they used to be.