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Yesterday on Betfair Sportsbook I placed a £5 each way double on the two Hunter Chases, Ardea in the 4.20 @ Doncaster and Mr Mercurrial in the 4.45 @ Ludlow.
Ardea finished second 3/1 (5 ran) and Mr Mercurrial won 9/2 (only 4 ran as late N/R).
It was settled as a return of £18.59.
I queried this via 'chat'. I was asked which horse won, when I said Mr Mercurrial, I was asked what was my source for this information.
I was then told Ardea's race had only 4 runners so my bet was a loser, they even sent me a link to Sporting Life results.
I explained that the result link showed 4 finishers and one other was PU. I was told that this 'counted as a 4 runner race'.
Unbelievable, so I sent an email complaining.
The response from the 'racing traders' was that I should only have received £8.75 as the second leg(Mr Mercurrial) had only 4 runners, there is no place betting so it is void!! And that the original settlement was wrong.
I've been betting a long time, does anyone else agree it should be return £48.12 or £48.13 if they feel generous.
I accept mistakes are made, I make them on a regular basis, but once a mistake is made and highlighted please get it right.
Ardea finished second 3/1 (5 ran) and Mr Mercurrial won 9/2 (only 4 ran as late N/R).
It was settled as a return of £18.59.
I queried this via 'chat'. I was asked which horse won, when I said Mr Mercurrial, I was asked what was my source for this information.
I was then told Ardea's race had only 4 runners so my bet was a loser, they even sent me a link to Sporting Life results.
I explained that the result link showed 4 finishers and one other was PU. I was told that this 'counted as a 4 runner race'.
Unbelievable, so I sent an email complaining.
The response from the 'racing traders' was that I should only have received £8.75 as the second leg(Mr Mercurrial) had only 4 runners, there is no place betting so it is void!! And that the original settlement was wrong.
I've been betting a long time, does anyone else agree it should be return £48.12 or £48.13 if they feel generous.
I accept mistakes are made, I make them on a regular basis, but once a mistake is made and highlighted please get it right.
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If the winner had finished 2nd (out of 4), you would have received nothing. You need to challenge this. If youd done an e/w single 5 runners and then 1 gets taken out, its all up. Therefore the same for the 'place' part of the each-way double. The place odds are the full win odds cos you have to finish 1st. The betting regulator would consider this a no-brainer.
I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong in this and wish you all the best should you proceed further..Good Luck..
Apologies to TTP, who according to Koral rules in correct .....
All bets are settled in accordance with our SP place betting terms and not at the time that the bet is placed. For example, if your bet has been placed when there are 5 runners, but only 4 horses come under “Starters Orders” then your whole stake will go on the selected horse to win.
All bets are settled in accordance with our SP place betting terms and not at the time that the bet is placed. For example, if your bet has been placed when there are 5 runners, but only 4 horses come under “Starters Orders” then your whole stake will go on the selected horse to win.
escalations@betfair.com
email the above and it will get resolved without having to wait for IBAS
email the above and it will get resolved without having to wait for IBAS
Should have put it on the exchange especially as any non runner was going to cause a problem
21.7Place Terms
Each-way bets (Win and Place) are offered for the majority of races. For all horse races (at Early Price, Show Price and S.P) the each-way terms are affected by the type of race and the number of runners taking part and these terms are as follows:
Race Type No. of Runners Place Odds No. Places
All Races 4 or less Win Only Win Only
All Races 5-7 1/4 1,2
Non-Handicaps 8+ 1/5 1,2,3
Handicaps* 8-11 1/5 1,2,3
Handicaps* 12-15 1/4 1,2,3
Handicaps* 16+ 1/4 1,2,3,4
[* ‘Handicaps’ include all Handicap and Nursery races]
The ‘Win’ and ‘Place’ part of each-way multiple bets are settled separately (that is, win-to-win and place-to-place).
Once opened, the number of winners in 'to be placed' markets may be affected by further non-runners.
If the number of placed horses is less than the number of potential winners, the winners will only be the placed horse or horses.
If any race is reduced to four runners or less, all each-way bets will be taken as ‘all-to-win’ given that there are no places.
Each-way bets (Win and Place) are offered for the majority of races. For all horse races (at Early Price, Show Price and S.P) the each-way terms are affected by the type of race and the number of runners taking part and these terms are as follows:
Race Type No. of Runners Place Odds No. Places
All Races 4 or less Win Only Win Only
All Races 5-7 1/4 1,2
Non-Handicaps 8+ 1/5 1,2,3
Handicaps* 8-11 1/5 1,2,3
Handicaps* 12-15 1/4 1,2,3
Handicaps* 16+ 1/4 1,2,3,4
[* ‘Handicaps’ include all Handicap and Nursery races]
The ‘Win’ and ‘Place’ part of each-way multiple bets are settled separately (that is, win-to-win and place-to-place).
Once opened, the number of winners in 'to be placed' markets may be affected by further non-runners.
If the number of placed horses is less than the number of potential winners, the winners will only be the placed horse or horses.
If any race is reduced to four runners or less, all each-way bets will be taken as ‘all-to-win’ given that there are no places.
Its just wrong that in order to be paid at 1/4 odds his horse has to win, Therefore If any race is reduced to four runners or less, all each-way bets will be taken as ‘all-to-win’ given that there are no places
So according to the bottom rule above your place bet from the first horse to run should have all gone on the second to win
As I said earlier, glad to be proved wrong, as that means GtW will get paid more, and I've learnt something as well..For that I thank you..
Betfair's rules:
If any race is reduced to four runners or less, all each-way bets will be taken as ‘all-to-win’ given that there are no places
The problem is that a double is just a double, the order of the events should be irrelevant. If you go with the 4 horse race first, it becomes a win double and loses. Go in the actual order of events, you have a place bet in a race which doesn't have place betting.
Def one for IBAS more to see what logic they use to refuse to pay out...
If any race is reduced to four runners or less, all each-way bets will be taken as ‘all-to-win’ given that there are no places
The problem is that a double is just a double, the order of the events should be irrelevant. If you go with the 4 horse race first, it becomes a win double and loses. Go in the actual order of events, you have a place bet in a race which doesn't have place betting.
Def one for IBAS more to see what logic they use to refuse to pay out...
if the wnr would have run 1st,the bet would
be
£55/2 £27.50 E/W on the 3/1
still returns £48.12
be
£55/2 £27.50 E/W on the 3/1
still returns £48.12
dave1357, two bets here win portion lost , place portion £8.75 all on to win.
Looks like the bet was underpaid, good luck GTW. As Aladdin stated, I also learnt something ref 4 runner field settlement.
I cant believe I'm reading all this, its like something out of fawlty towers, the worry is no-one in the race room & I repeat no-one can see the return on this bet is over £48 is frankly unbelievable 
Feb 23, 2017 -- 7:40PM, mmmalushka wrote:
dave1357, two bets here win portion lost , place portion £8.75 all on to win.
I know that. My point is if the bet is settled in reverse order, the 4 horse race becomes a win only double, not an each way double.
Doubles shouldn't be order dependent.
doubles aint order dependant,
it's how many runners go to post.
it's how many runners go to post.
Thank you for the replies, I will try the escalation route suggested by mmmalushka, thanks.
Pumphol, I did make that point to them, which is when I was advised by them to contact IBAS.
Good evening everyone.
Pumphol, I did make that point to them, which is when I was advised by them to contact IBAS.
Good evening everyone.
agree pumphol. just cant believe there are so many who do not understand e/w rules
£48.12 is the return anyone who does not get it should not be betting imo
£48.12 is the return anyone who does not get it should not be betting imo
dave1357, how would settle the bet if Arbeo had won?
I know nothing, Mr Fawlty, but would go with the £48.13
price of n/r makes no difference as those are returned sps - what is staggering is that this has not been resolved in op s favour and tells you all you need to know about the knowledge of these guys at betfair towers regarding the rules of settlement in such circumstances
Totally laughable and no way will Betfair allow this to go to Ibas cos they wud laugh them out of "court"
Totally laughable and no way will Betfair allow this to go to Ibas cos they wud laugh them out of "court"
@penzance in this case they are order dependent, as I said, if the 4 horse race went off first, the first leg of the each way double becomes a win double because it is now 4 runners, but in the actual order of events you can argue that the place bet becomes a win bet.
Imagine if 5 horses had gone to post, he would have been settled place place it wouldn't matter which race went first.
@mmmalushka that's just the same question. Because if you settle the bets in reverse the 4 horse race becomes win only, so it's a win double.
My only point here is that settling a double in a different order gives a different result, which really shouldn't happen with a double.
Imagine if 5 horses had gone to post, he would have been settled place place it wouldn't matter which race went first.
@mmmalushka that's just the same question. Because if you settle the bets in reverse the 4 horse race becomes win only, so it's a win double.
My only point here is that settling a double in a different order gives a different result, which really shouldn't happen with a double.
smirnoff just beat me to it...as pumpy said hard to believe what i'm reading and surprised their is ANYBODY on this forum that disagrees with the £48.13 return..sharp minds indeed
Its irrelevant which horse runs first, it should also be irrelevant if you pick a horse in a four horse race & do an ew double, one race is just all up to win if the horse comes second the whole bet is beat if it wins you have the same amount going on the win as you would the place.
The rules would state in any betting shop, if there are not enough runners its all up to win on that selection.
The fact no-one from the powers that be can see this does not bode well, this just goes to prove that the betting industry on the whole is now being run by incompetents, it comes over as though almost everyone working in the industry hasn't a damn clue on how to settle a bet.
The rules would state in any betting shop, if there are not enough runners its all up to win on that selection.
The fact no-one from the powers that be can see this does not bode well, this just goes to prove that the betting industry on the whole is now being run by incompetents, it comes over as though almost everyone working in the industry hasn't a damn clue on how to settle a bet.
So how would you settle the bet if the times of the race were reversed?
no they are'nt,no matter what order
they go off a 4rnr race becomes win only
(split stakes after).
they go off a 4rnr race becomes win only
(split stakes after).
Don't mean to be rude Dave but how long have you been betting?
ive posted on here earlier,they both come to the
same.
£48.12.
same.
£48.12.
@twizzle don't mean to be rude, but you can't even write English.
To answer the question what if Ardea had won too,
you would have a £5 win double at 3/1 and 9/2 of £110.
and a £5 place double at 3/4 and 9/2 of £48.12.
Total £158.12.
For anyone to argue that race order matters would also have to argue that 8x5 is not the same as 5x8, and I look forward to deciphering the logic of anyone who tries ...
you would have a £5 win double at 3/1 and 9/2 of £110.
and a £5 place double at 3/4 and 9/2 of £48.12.
Total £158.12.
For anyone to argue that race order matters would also have to argue that 8x5 is not the same as 5x8, and I look forward to deciphering the logic of anyone who tries ...
penzance, the rule quoted (I quoted it as well) states that an ew bet becomes a single on 4 or less runners. I want you to quote me the rule that states if that happens in the first leg of a double, the returns are split for the second.
I can visualize it now, twenty people at Betfair Towers all saying " but its not £48.12 " 
only idiots will come on now and say settlement is correct
I think thurnscoe thunder has returned as dave1357.
I don't know for sure but my logic would be if the horse had finished second in the 4-runner race, the bet would be a loser.
Therefore the only possible outcome is the winner is settled at its odds of 9-2.
Therefore the only possible outcome is the winner is settled at its odds of 9-2.
dave 1357 up untll now I thought you were one of the sensible ones . how wrong I was
Dave if I had £5 ewd on two 4/1 shots one a five horse race the other seven, in the first leg there is a late nr, hence the £5 win goes on the horse at 4/1 & so does the place money, there is no place on four runners, horse wins he now has £25 running on the next horse to win he also has £25 going on the second horse to place ( at evens )
In essence because the there is a nr the £10 goes on the first runner to win only, anywhere but first the bet is a loser, after the first horse wins the place part of the bet comes into play.
Its always been settled this way & there is absolutely no reason it should ever change, unless you get a settler or in this case multiple settlers that don't understand basic rules of betting & in the end they are just that, basic rules.
In essence because the there is a nr the £10 goes on the first runner to win only, anywhere but first the bet is a loser, after the first horse wins the place part of the bet comes into play.
Its always been settled this way & there is absolutely no reason it should ever change, unless you get a settler or in this case multiple settlers that don't understand basic rules of betting & in the end they are just that, basic rules.
I have been settling bets in betting shops for 40 years, I can say without a shadow of a doubt the return on this bet is £48.12 or £48.13 depending on the settlers mood.
pumphol If you say that's the way it would be settled if the race times had been reversed, I'll take your word for it, but would have thought that there would be a rule somewhere
2 posts in 16+ years ......... must work for Betfair settlers considering tonights dismal performance
hmmm ok verified pumphol's rule with a trustworthy 3rd party. So the order is irrelevant.
Sadly times have changed, hardly anyone in the industry actually settles a bet anymore & because this is far from a regular occurrence common sense does not prevail.
When I first went to settling school as you did back in the day you were given a multitude of different bets to settle like this winning 50p yankee
15/8 winner
100/30 winner dead heat
11/4 winner with 20p rule 4
and finally a non runner
I wish you luck with the total, Twizzle will probably be feverishly working it out I suspect
When I first went to settling school as you did back in the day you were given a multitude of different bets to settle like this winning 50p yankee
15/8 winner
100/30 winner dead heat
11/4 winner with 20p rule 4
and finally a non runner
I wish you luck with the total, Twizzle will probably be feverishly working it out I suspect
Layerslayer I remember someone I knew way back used that name on here but you have only just started posting, do you know Twizzle ?
go to war ; if pumphol and others say the return is £48.13 you can be reassured that's the correct amount.Take it to IBAS and let us know how you get on.
It's unbelievable that within a generation the science of settling has been forgotten.
It's unbelievable that within a generation the science of settling has been forgotten.
Hi pumphol, as you can see I rarely post, I just happened to be looking on the forum to find out why settlement was taking so long and I spotted this thread. I don't believe I know Twizzle to answer your question. Glad there are still some old school settlers about, good luck to you.
Had to laugh layerslayer at your 'i rarely post'....understatement of the decade !
layerslayer
some good old school managers about but the problem is there cant sell scratchcards and connect cards so there face does not fit FACT
regards
ronnie
some good old school managers about but the problem is there cant sell scratchcards and connect cards so there face does not fit FACT
regards
ronnie
Same to you layer, you say you rarely post so you probably haven't posted since the upgrade but maybe used to post, wouldn't be Don would it ?
All the best.
All the best.
I'm pretty sure in the distant past that was his username, when was the original upgrade 2010 ?
Posts probably went back to Zero & its the first time he posted since.
If he asked me who I was I was going to say how many other people backed Norton's Coin in his shop
Posts probably went back to Zero & its the first time he posted since.
If he asked me who I was I was going to say how many other people backed Norton's Coin in his shop
You are correct pumphol & twizzle, see you in another decade who ever you are, may the punting gods be with you !
Ah ha Tony P hope you are well, I guess your doing well at this lark must be right up your street, or you still smashing up the distances with Sporting ?
How is Sean Layerslayer?...had any 23fold acca's up lately?
Don, stopped doing the distances around 10 years ago, manage to earn a few quid here & there, days of taking money off you & Twizzle are long gone 
You still live opposite King George's ?
You still live opposite King George's ?
MM or PS I cant decide, accas not been the same since they stopped doing the lay accas on the football on here they were great, tonight could be a good night with mu lucky 31 on the draws in the darts looking quite handy.
The latter Don...hope all is well with you Mrs D Layerslayer and little(not so now though)layerslayer
)layerslayer
Don't see him any more Tony, you still in the market if so will pop in next time i am in the area.
Hope all is well with you Paul, you still working ?
No Don all finished five years ago now, you still in the betting game ?
Yes still at it Tony, must go chaps got a bet to settle I reckon about £400 for my modest interest 25p lucky 31. Send me an email if either of you want to meet up for a drink/catch up, all the best boys.
Just 5 hours Sat/Sun at the OK CORRAL..well done on tonight's touch..hope you didn't have the bet with this lot coz they're be sure to fck it up.Will be in touch(send me a pm with your e mail) ive lost it
.Will be in touch(send me a pm with your e mail) ive lost it
Don sent you a message on here, well done with the darts tonight, speak soon.
Will pm you Paul, i still see Terry H quite a lot, I think he was trying to hunt you down for a game of golf.
Ok..I know where he lives..i will pop in to see him
To bring this to an end, the bet has now been settled with a return of £48.12 and has been credited to my account.
My thanks to all those who contributed to the thread.
My thanks to all those who contributed to the thread.
1 Do they still have Settlers in Betting Shops ?
2 Trawler Thread .
2 Trawler Thread .
^
Reretfully not, and worse still it seems there are no settlers in head offices.
In the 80's I was taught to settle long hand (pyramid blocks, crash blocks etc) Never trained on calculators. Genies came in followed by another machine whose name escapes me. OTT'S followed which were good, and the monitor could be shown to the argumentative punter exactly how the bet was settled.
Reretfully not, and worse still it seems there are no settlers in head offices.
In the 80's I was taught to settle long hand (pyramid blocks, crash blocks etc) Never trained on calculators. Genies came in followed by another machine whose name escapes me. OTT'S followed which were good, and the monitor could be shown to the argumentative punter exactly how the bet was settled.
Passed a Settling Course with Hlls Years ago then Another with Mecca ,The Old "genie" that brings back memories
Im sure the Bloke who was the Trainer at one of them was Called Bernie Winters
Nice that you got your just rewards in the end
I was a trainee settler with Maxie Parker's back in the 60s. I had to spend all day checking the previous days slips to see if they were correctly settled. I didn't stay working there very long.
Seeing that they have had computers for years now to settle bets and this bet was straightforward, the only conclusion you can come to is that they were trying to underpay you
Am glad you've got paid.....this thread is a good example of one of the benefits of the forum.
saxon farm... were you thinking of the sporting life settler, came in calculator style or if you were a spiv with loads of money the desktop version.
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