GRUNDY

Anybody remember the horses that Franca Vittadini won the Ladies Race at Ascot on?

Too wine induced to look in the books but think aforementioned Cracking Form is one of them.
On the subject of Orange Bay - does everyone remember the old Schweppes Calendars before they spoilt them with 'action' photographs from the late 80's onwards. Originally each month would have a horse on the lawn in the yard with jockey up in silks. Just 12 horses for the year, split between NH and flat and most were deserving. However, I think PT Walwyn had the second luckiest to get included - St Leger placed Classic Example -the luckiest was Stoute's Schweppshire Lad, owned by the firm themselves.

Here is a great article by Alistair Down on Peter Walwyn.

Peter Walwyn is a cult figure among those who abhor the petty tyrannies of the politically correct. Some of his views might have the more liberal denizens of Hampstead choking on their muesli of a morning but there are two things to bear in mind about Walwyn. First, there is a rugged kindness that underpins his outlook and, second, he is a very fine character actor and the role he has become quite brilliant at is playing himself.

And to talk to him is to take great leaps back in British history. His father fought in the Boer War and on the Western Front and must have been a notably courageous officer, as he was awarded the Military Cross and DSO and was mentioned in dispatches on three occasions.

It is incredible to relate that Walwyn's grandfather was at the Second Relief of Lucknow during the Indian Mutiny of 1857, an engagement of such unbridled ferocity that on November 16 of that year more VCs were won - a total of 24 - than on any other day in military history.

Walwyn says: "My father was a far better horseman and horse master than I have ever been. He was involved in the opening artillery barrage of the war in 1914," and by way of proof he pops into the next room and returns with the polished brass casing of a 13-pounder shell. You might think Walwyn's National Service rank as corporal in the Intelligence Corps marked something of a disappointment in terms of a military career, but he says: "I had back trouble which meant I was refused a commission, but that actually rebounded to my advantage. "I had undoubtedly led something of a sheltered life as a boy but suddenly I was thrust into a different world with people from absolutely every walk of life. It gave me insight and understanding into ordinary, everyday people and the lives they lead. It was invaluable." His first job in racing was with Geoffrey Brooke in Newmarket. Brooke had been private trainer to Major Lionel Holliday, a hugely successful Yorkshire owner-breeder of fiery temperament and a choleric disposition. One day Holliday rang up and said: "Brooke, what happened to my filly at Ripon last night? One of my friends said she didn't run well and she didn't look well either." Brooke replied: "I did not know you had any friends" and put the phone down.

If that was brave, he showed it was no flash in the pan by taking on Walwyn as his first pupil-assistant when he set up on his own in 1952. Walwyn says: "I was in charge of the bottom yard, which was a sea of mud and populated entirely by completely wild Irish lads. But we had a wonderful head man, Bob Ruttle, and I began to learn about feeding and dealing with problem horses. "In those days a lot of horses still went to places like Doncaster and Manchester by special train with a carriage for the travelling head lads, then the horses and a guard's van on the back." Out of the blue Walwyn was approached by his first cousin Helen Johnson Houghton, sister of Fulke Walwyn, to join her at Blewbury. Her husband Gordon, an immensely promising trainer, had been killed in a hunting accident back in 1951. As women were not officially allowed to train, others had held the licence for her, and now she wanted Peter to do so.

Mrs Johnson Houghton was a horsewoman of towering reputation and Walwyn stayed for five successful years before the moment came to strike out on his own. Peter and Bonk were married in January 1960 and later that year they bought Windsor House in Lambourn and for pounds 12,000 got a nice Georgian house and two cottages which included a hostel, 30 boxes and 11 acres. HE RECALLS: "Our first winner was with our second ever runner, Don Verde ridden by John Lawrence [now Oaksey] in a novice hurdle at Worcester when, despite making a hash of the second-last, they won by eight lengths." In 1961 a yearling arrived who would become one of Walwyn's stalwarts. From 1963 Be Hopeful won every year for a decade and landed his last triumph at Brighton in 1973 at the age of 14. He trained many finer racehorses but none more durable. But it is Seven Barrows that became the yard indelibly associated with Walwyn and he bought it off Henry Candy's father, Derrick, in late 1965. Walwyn says: "It was a fabulous place but it needed a huge amount doing to it.

The lads' hostel had more rats than the Pied Piper led out of Hamelin and the stables needed complete renovation with new floors. "We had our first winner, Crozier, from Seven Barrows at Easter 1966 and training is only about winners because it is winners that keep owners and stop them looking over their shoulders to see if the grass is greener elsewhere." In just a couple of years the yard took off and by 1969 he was approaching the pinnacle of his profession. Lucyrowe won the Coronation Stakes at Royal Ascot - where Town Crier took the Queen Anne - then the Nassau Stakes. Humble Duty, with stable jockey Duncan Keith up, took the Lowther and the Cheveley Park before sealing her greatness by taking the following season's 1,000 Guineas, Coronation and Sussex Stakes. Walwyn says: "Once a year I still read George Lambton's famous book 'Men and Horses I Have Known' as you always find something more in it. I never forgot his dictum to trainers, 'curb your curiosity', by which he meant don't keep going and asking them questions at home that should only be answered on the racecourse. It is very easy to do, particularly on the hills round here." It was Grundy who provided Walwyn with the zenith of his career.

He says: "We went to Overbury, the Holland-Martin stud in Gloucestershire, and there was this flashy looking bugger, but he had great style about him and their very knowledgeable stud groom Peter Diamond said, 'This is a horse you should buy'. "Usually it took a month to break a horse in but Grundy was boisterous and he took two. It is all about steady perseverance, getting their mouth right and their deportment and never, under any circumstance being cruel. "He looked encouraging in his early work, so one morning I worked him with a three-year-old who had won a handicap on the heath day of Royal Ascot. "You sit there all those mornings on your hack and perhaps six or eight times in a lifetime one will go past that sends that cold shiver down your spine. It is the fascination of excellence - seeing a horse you have broken in from nothing suddenly change into something else in front of your eyes. Grundy was the most marvelous mover and as tough as old boots." If there is one place Walwyn loves as deeply as he does Lambourn it is Epsom on Derby Day.

A lifelong water colourist who still goes to lessons once a week, he says: "William Frith's magnificent painting Derby Day captures it all - toffs, touts and tarts, a complete microcosm of life. "I had already trained the runner-up twice before Grundy won. I watched it from Lord Derby's box and I am sure I deafened the lot of them and after the race we all went up to be congratulated by the Queen, which was marvelous. "It turned into a very long day. On the way home we stopped as a pee was needed and there was some graffiti on the wall which read 'the future of England is in your hands' and on that day I remember thinking that it probably was.

"We had a great party when we got home and one of our oldest friends, who was quite mad, turned up at midnight in a black cab still in his top hat with yet another case of champagne. He was still here three days later and when we finally got rid of him he got on the wrong train and ended up somewhere in Somerset rather than London." And, of course, Grundy's defeat of Bustino in the King George was yet to come. It is hard to define why many believed it to be the race of the century. After all there have been even closer finishes in the big race and greater winners, though not many.

But ask anyone who watched it and they will tell you of the immediate certainty they felt as they trooped down from the stands that there had been something primal and almost savagely noble about the struggle they had witnessed. Everyone just knew in their marrow that Grundy and Bustino would be talked about as long as there were people left on the planet to whom hard battles between horses on high summer grass were matters of importance. OF COURSE, Walwyn's black and white persona inevitably led to the occasional drama and disagreement with owners, none more so than with the Wildensteins, whom he regards with a cordial loathing to this day. The horses came to Walwyn from Angel Penna in France, and mastering his distaste Walwyn says: "One day there should be a party for the former trainers of the Wildensteins and I think the Albert Hall would be a very suitable venue. Alec Wildenstein was always the most troublesome of them all. After Buckskin, who had the most awful feet in the world, was fourth in the Gold Cup they said that Pat Eddery was not to ride for them again. Having counted to about 100 I told them that if Pat couldn't ride 'em they could go and take their horses with them. They went the following morning." It was perhaps the skirmishes with the Wildensteins and others that led Walwyn to invent his famous bus that is always on its way over Beachy Head packed with those he would happily never see again. He says: "That Alec Wildenstein is the driver and Willie Carson is the conductor. And the other people I don't get on with each has a seat in the window with the best view as they go over the cliff. Job done." For all his occasional bombast Walwyn has been hugely touched by having had nearly 500 letters of congratulation since the announcement of his MBE. Lameness apart, he is in good form, but even if he wasn't he would never let on. Three years ago he had a major scare, but even that has passed into legend, and Bonk takes up the tale: "We were coming back in the car from seeing the grandchildren and he was mumbling away a bit more than usual. I said 'Peter, are you having a stroke?' and he replied 'I don't know, I've never had one before'." She adds: "Another time when he had a bad fall out hunting he went a very odd colour, so we shot him into hospital. Eventually, before they let him out, a very serious doctor came to me and said 'Mrs Walwyn, I am afraid he may not be quite the same as other people. He could be a bit tricky, have mood swings and jump up and down and shout a bit'."

History does not relate whether the doctor was surprised or reassured to receive the reply, "Nothing new there then". It is unlikely that Lambourn ever had a greater benefactor and friend than Walwyn and last Monday there was a not-much-of-a-surprise party for him at Oaksey House with more than 90 on hand to celebrate his forthcoming gong. Bonk says: "It was a marvellous and, I must admit, an emotional occasion. His mother and father weren't too keen on him going into racing - they thought it was a 'bit fast' as they used to say. But we've been here in Lambourn 52 years, have survived and still love it and its people. "He is so chuffed about his MBE, completely thrilled. Mind you, our daughter Kate and I have had to have new outfits for Windsor Castle and when he sees the inroads we've made in his cheque book he may be lost for words for once! But life's about laughing - at least it always has been here."

What they say about Peter Walwyn ... He is a curiously difficult man to assess and all that Basil Fawlty stuff belittles him and his record. Back in the 1970s it was Peter and Henry Cecil who were always hammering on each other's door in terms of big races and championships.

Henry had the advantage of being the younger man and there was a fierce degree of competition between them and not much love lost, although I don't know exactly why. Peter achieved a huge amount, particularly in the glory days of Humble Duty and Grundy, and for some years he seemed to win just about every Classic trial going. He was remarkably consistent and hugely successful, although as everyone knows he lost a few owners along the way. Towards the end of his career he suffered, rather like me, from owners growing old, falling off the perch or taking to strong drink! But he has been a splendid turfiste of very long standing and, like many others, I am delighted for him that he has got this MBE. He has been blessed with the most splendid wife and I have great admiration for the pair of them.

P Walwyn is lucky in that he doesn't really care what the rest of the world thinks. He has a huge heart that means well, but there is an element of "my way is the right way" and everyone else is just wrong. It is all black and white with him and that can come over as arrogance in remarks like "my horses are too fast to catch a virus", which was something of a hostage to fortune and wouldn't endear him to anyone struggling with sick horses. Yet he couldn't care less where someone has come from, or that they have a humble background, because he has always wanted to be a giver and seeing the good side of people is an important part of him - just look at all the work he has done providing housing in Lambourn. And his staff loved him and many stayed with him for donkey's years.

And Bonk is a miracle - just like a second heart pumping away next to Pete's. As in all great marriages she makes a virtue of his faults as well as enjoying his gifts - she's always jolly and makes everything fun. If Pete lost a dog in the mincer she'd make a great story of it, which would always be accompanied by a decent gin and tonic. He and Bonk adopted two children and that is all about having a big heart as well, isn't it? I've said before that he is someone to celebrate because he is a character who has the self-belief to stay one. And, most of all, his enthusiasm is enduring and undimmed - something that is rarer and more admirable than you might think.

COPYRIGHT 2012 MGN LTD
No portion of this article can be reproduced without the express written permission from the copyright holder.
Copyright 2012 Gale, Cengage Learning. All rights reserved.

Sadly his wife Bonk has passed away since the article was written.

He was a wonderful trainer and is a great character of the Turf.

Yes VL, I remember the Schweppes calendars well. Some terrific photos on the old ones like you say. A bit like this one below of Glint Of Gold

fine article by Down. I particularly like the Grundy quote from Walwyn....

"He looked encouraging in his early work, so one morning I worked him with a three-year-old who had won a handicap on the heath day of Royal Ascot. "You sit there all those mornings on your hack and perhaps six or eight times in a lifetime one will go past that sends that cold shiver down your spine".

Yep, just like that' something nostalgically warming about them. There were actually some action photos in the 70's - Davy Lad jumping last in the Gold Cup, Red Rum jumping the last in the National - Night Nurse and Monksfield in action too, plus home gallop ones - Godswalk and The Minstrel( but not together of course) - however, from the late 80's they were all action, some zoomed in too close, soulless photos . As if they thought, jockey in silks on horse at home is something outdated like cigarette cards.
Great Down article, there was also plenty of good PT Walwyn stuff in 'Pat On The Back' published end of 75 or early 76, a good read if you can forget the Claude Duval is the author. The PT Walwyn biography is an OK read too though imo no better than that. Lots of stuff left out.

I remember the Schweppes calendars because my uncle worked in the Schweppes distribution factory in Sidcup, so always had the calendar up on the wall of their house. He and my aunt both had betting accounts with Copes, then Hills (so had back copies of the Copes yearbooks). I loved looking through the colour pictures. Black and white TV in those days (very early 60s) made the colour pictures seem very special.

ged - good stuff, and reminded me that my complete and mint collection of Schweppes Calendars went to a "silly" offer from a friend. Never got around to replacing them although they are easily available. I have still got all my Uncle Jack's Cope's Encyclopaedias though!!!

blackbarn, have you got the complete set of Copes? Do you know when they started publishing and when they ended? They were great little books. Hardback too. No cutting corners back in the day. The internet has killed off these wonderful little year books that were great to get.

I think PW doesn`t like WC. I got that impression after reading the article

COPE'S Racegoers's Encyclopedia - First published in 1939 - then again in 1940.

No editions during rest of Second World War

Resumed in 1946 up to 1962

The pre-war issues are seasons 1938/39 and 1939/40. The post war copies are titled according to the following racing season year. Starting with 1946 and ending in 1962. I think!!

Onlooker - I believe we are in violent agreement.

HUMBLE DUTY


POLYGAMY


HABAT

HUMBLE DUTY


DUNCAN KEITH

Polygamy is a fond memory. My sister in law looked after the Queens horse Highclere who met Polygamy twice as a 2 year old. The first time Polygamy beat her 3 lengths but next time she showed she had improved because she beat Polygamy at Ascot. Highclere then won her next race and was put away for the Guineas. Polygamy won again and won her Guineas trial. Highclere went straight for the Guineas without a run and wore blinkers for the time.
Over the winter a number of us backed Highclere at 33s for the Guineas with Lads and a couple of us also doubled up with Red Rum at 10s for the Grand National. She had the beating of Polygamy on form, wore blinkers for the first time and Polygamy was favourite. She only won by a short head but she then went on to win the Prix Diane and finish 2nd to Dahlia in the King George. And to put the icing on the cake Polygamy won the Oaks. Happy days.

good morning brigust

nice story as you say happy days.

we all know who you think is the best horse you ever saw ,but who do you think was the 2nd best ?

brigust - were you there in '66, and if so do you remember Persian War being there? It says on his Wiki page that Astor studs switched him to Tom Masson as a 3yo for whom he won staying handicaps at Salisbury and Wolverhampton, but according to the Glasgow Herald newspaper, he was trained and ridden by Dick Hern and Joe Mercer when he won at Wolverhampton on Aug 2, 1966 over 2m1f at 11/4, and given the comment and the price, I'm presuming that was the 2nd of his wins as a 3yo.

Morning foxy good question. Mill Reef, Sea Bird 11 and Dancing Brave/Nijinsky in that order.

Ged I didn't go there until 68, the year before Sir Ivor beat Remand in the Derby. By best mate from those days was an apprentice and the first horse he rode was Persian War. He went on to win 2 maidens that year but he thinks the stable jockey Reg Cartright rode him to both maiden wins. It was a long time ago and I haven't my form books here to check that out.
About Persian War he was my favourite hurdler and when BG ran in the 2000 Guineas I backed him at 12s ante post and doubled up with Persian War in the Champion Hurdle. Sadly PW finished 2nd to Bula that year. I did singles as well though so no complaints.

brigust those were my highlight years as well it was Sea Bird the Brigadier then Mill Reef and Nijinsky but who cares they  were great days and great horses glad i saw them

ged - Re Persian War.  The Wolverhampton win was the first of his two flat wins that season.  The Salisbury(?) race was after and was over 12f.

blackbarn - thanks. That seems surprising. The Herald result has him winning at Wolver by 6 and 12.

Ged - I was using Timeform data, from the 1968 Annual. I do not have the 66 one!, and the records for his 1966 season (in the 68 book!) show 10s 13.3s 16.9d(4th) 16.9(*Won) and finally 12s (*Won) which led me to believe the Wolves win was first.  Just for info, he only ran two more times on the Flat, 6th over 10 furlongs in 67 and 3rd over 2 miles in 68.

Hi dod. The first Derby I went to was Relko and I saw nothing the crowds were amazing. I saw Grundy win because after his Guineas run we thought he was a good thing and backed him right up to the race. What I do remember is returning home after the race and having a heated disagreement with my sister about the referendum to join the common market. It must have been any day then.
I wonder what the media of today would have thought about the old greats?

Blackbarn Persian War won two maidens, I believe, that year can you tell me who rode him to those two wins?

^sorry B our posts overlapped.

blackbarn - yes that must be right, assuming the Wiki info is to some extent correct (there are other errors in the piece about the horse). Just seems odd that he would go back to 12f after winning by 6 and 12 over 2m1f (in a 14-runner field).

I remember his run over 10f, to some extent. It was at Newbury I think, and Pat Eddery rode, then star apprentice, and it was generally assumed that the horse had improved since he had developed into such an outstanding hurdler. I think he carried about 7-10 and went off fav, but was well beaten.

I'm wrong about Eddery riding him - the years don't add up. Memory fail there.

Ged you are right about Eddery riding him. It was Newbury in the Autumn Cup over 2m where he carried 7-10 and finished 4th at 4/1 2f.

Sept 13th 1969 to be exact. Knotty Pine R Hutchinson won by 8 lengths at 9/2.

Ah - conflated the 2 races. thanks.

thanks for the reply brigust i had a feeling mill reef would be the answer i can only go back to what i saw 77 the minstral was my first year your modern day call dancing brave would have been my 2nd best.

modern day 30 years ago

ged and I forgot to look at my 69 Timeform.  He was well backed for that Newbury race apparently.  T are perhaps understandingly dismissive though - "Brilliant hurdler but is only a moderate staying handicapper on flat"

Early PERSIAN WAR Flat.

Debut - Oct 6th 1965 - Lingfield - Edenbridge Maiden (2yo) 1m
Finished out of first 10, of 26 - ridden by R Cartwright*7 - 33/1 others

Nov 16th - Newmarket - Chesterton Maiden - 1m
out of first 10, of 33 - ridden by Joe Mercer - 20/1

1966 - ran 5 times - won final 2 outings

out of first 10, of 21, on Heavy - Newbury, May 5 - R Cartwright (no claim - must have become too old) - 33/1 others

Newbury  June 23 - 1m5f Maiden
out of first 10, of 17 - R Cartwright (no claim) - 33/1 others

Wolverhampton (Soft) - July 16  - Marathon Maiden Plate 2m 192yds
4th, of 20 0 beaten neck, head, 10 lengths - R Cartwright (no claim) - 33/1 others
(2nd entering straight, ran on one pace)

Wolverhampton (Soft) - Aug 2nd - Bilbrook Maiden Plate 2m 192yds  - £345
Won - by 6 lengths and 12 lengths - from Fib (6/5 FAV), and Mimoy
ridden by Joe Mercer - 11/4 2nd fav - 14 ran - (slow by 15 secs)
(took lead 5 out, drew clear straight)

Salisbury (Soft) - Aug 10th - Manton Maiden (at closing) 1m4f - £395
Won - by 2 and a half lengths, and 5 lengths - from Doushika (Evens FAV, from 6/4), and Carrymore
ridden by Joe Mercer - 9/4 2nd fav (from 3s) - 9 ran - (slow by 11.62s)
(led after 2 furlongs, comfortably)

Trained throughout by Major W Hern ... But listed in Index of 1966 From Book as (Masson) - so, probably sold at end of season 'Horses in Training' Sales.

Owned throughout by J J Astor
Breeder - Astor Studs

Thanks Onlooker that's great. Mind you I now have to convince a friend the Reg didn't win 2 races in him. Thank you.

did it rain all summer in 66 ?

Thanks Foxy. Can I say they are not my picks emotionally I do actually think that is what the ratings should show. If these horses were all running today what would have happened?
Well BG would not have run in the Juddmonte because he was clearly a sick horse and the scopes, we never had them then, would have shown that. Also he wouldn't have had to carry penalties in the Lockinge, Prince of Wales Stakes and QE11 because they are now Group 1 so it is likely he would have won these more easily and by further. 
Mill Reef would have swerved the Coronation Cup because he was found to be suffering from the virus going round his stable.
Nijinsky was suffering from ringworm at the time he won the Leger so he may have missed that given today's restrictions and could possibly have won the Arc instead.
Sea Bird, Dancing Brave and Frankel no change required.
So I think achievement wise the list I gave you is just about right and if the ratings guys were honest they would show that as well. But please don't tell anyone eh?

visually from watching old videos/tapes,nijinsky looked majestic on his day however i am not really sure how good stintino ,gyr,and sassafras were, obviously bg beat a proper horse in the 2,000.

Tf have DB and Nij on the same rating today so I guess had Nij won the Arc, and through Blakeney who finished 4th, he clearly should have done then I guess he would have edged DB. The BHA for 30 years had DB on a rating that put him ahead of Fr until they recalibrated (hugely suspect) imo. Sea Bird 11 did well over a short period but deserves to be up there whereas BG and MR proved themselves over a wider range of distances and a longer period. So when you pull it all together you have BG, MR, SB, Nij/DB and finally Fr.

blimey that would be a shock to frankels system he has yet to see a horses arse when crossing the winning line now he has to see 5 in one go.

GYR was well-regarded, especially by the press - as were all French challengers at the time - partly because he was one of Sea-Bird's first offspring.

He had won his two French trials before the Derby - and went on to win the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud following Epsom.

NIJINSKY actually beat GYR (4th) a length further in the Arc, than at Epsom, when GYR was runner-up.
--------------

Nijinsky’s winning the Triple Crown was a magnificent achievement, but it came at a price.

“The Leger would not have helped his preparation for the Arc,” O’Brien reflected, and 22 days later, Nijinsky was controversially beaten in Paris – his first defeat following 11 successive wins.

For Piggott, the writing had been on the wall before the race.

“Longchamp on Arc day is always packed, but in 1970 it was heaving with people who had come to see Nijinsky,” he recalled. “Too many of these worshippers were inside the paddock, and with camera crews and photographers fighting in a desperate scrum to get shots of the most famous horse in the world on his biggest day, Nijinsky became very stirred up. By the time I walked into the parade ring, he was pouring sweat, and there was a look of panic in his eye.”

The Triple Crown winner was beaten a head by Sassafras, and argument raged about whether Piggott had left too much ground for Nijinsky to make up in the short straight. The rider was characteristically unapologetic.

“Certainly Nijinsky would have won had he not swerved almost in the shadow of the post, and certainly he would have won had his initial finishing run not been blocked on the final bend,” Piggott said.

But no matter how many times you studied the replay of that contentious contest, Nijinsky had been beaten, and with retirement beckoning, Engelhard and O’Brien agreed that the colt should have one more race, in order to end a famous career on a winning note.

Thirteen days after the Arc, Nijinsky was at Newmarket for the Champion Stakes, and again Piggott entered the paddock to an alarming sight.

“The moment I saw Nijinsky in the parade ring, I could tell that he had not got over the Arc experience: He was a nervous wreck, and the huge crowd, which had turned out to bid him farewell, just made matters worse. In the race, he never gave me the old feeling, and when I asked him to go on and win there was precious little response.”

Nijinsky was beaten a length and a half by Lorenzaccio – according to Piggott, “a good horse, but one Nijinsky in his prime could have picked up and carried.”

i do have a full length video of nijinsky onlooker would you believe orsen wells is the one presenting it ,i have never seen a triple crown winner although i was at doncaster when oh so sharp won the fillies version.

Thanks for the details on Persian War, onlooker.

He made his debut over hurdles on 26th October at Ascot, for Tom Masson, so perhaps that is why he is listed under his name at the end of the flat season. He was beaten on that debut, receiving weight, in a 5-runner race. Surprisingly (!), it was the 2nd division of a juvenile hurdle - the first div had 8 runners. The card was a mixed one. Joe Mercer had one mount on the card, in the following race, for Peter Walwyn. Coincidentally, Mugatpura, who became a rival for Persian War over hurdles, and won the Fighting Fifth, was running in a 7f race in the last race on the card.

Excellent stuff Onlooker, absolutely brilliant.  I only wish he was running today I wonder what the media would have made of him, he was a superstar.

Just imagine Nijinsky owned by Charles Engelhard, trained by Vincent O'Brien and ridden by Lester Piggott. Talk about a press frenzy.

the one none of will ever know as to the limits of his ability was harbinger.

Can't have it, sorry.  another Tf stitch up.

Onlookers post reminded me of an old Piggott quote.  I have never seen it written down but I have never forgotten it......

"He didn't speak well, but he always knew exactly what to say".

i am not for one minute suggesting he could compare with the greats you mention brigust but on his last performance you could never be sure how he would have gone on for the rest of his time racing.

B the only thing Lester said to me was after he rode a filly I took racing to Folkestone. I think her name was Falderol and it was a maiden, the last race. She used to pull like a train at home so while leading him round he was adjusting his irons I told him she pulled a bit and he just looked at me. I let him go and he flew down to the start on a long reign then came back tailed off. He was so far back instead of going the usual 'pulling up' route he came straight in the gate like a rocket. Then in his unforgettable style and accent he said 'not worth 2 f  cking bob'. Jumped off took off the saddle and left.

As if that wasn't bad enough Folkestone was then a 3 day meeting where you drove down on the Sunday after morning stables, raced on the Monday and drove back on the Tuesday morning. We arrived around 4 ish and went to the dormitory above the barn, it was a long room with beds either side and a washroom at the end. It was just me and Fred the box driver. He grabbed the corner bed and I chose the one next to him. We went to bed around 8ish, I was in bed whereupon Fred decided to go to the loo and what happened next I can still smell today. It was rank. Scarred me for life.

You could say that about Sea Bird, Dancing Brave, Mill Reef and Nijinsky but that would only be guesswork foxy.

Sorry I forgot you were talking about Harbinger. I suggest the owners knew exactly what they were doing by retiring him. Looking closely at the facts you couldn't blame them.

no you couldnt they all ran again after there best performances.

he fractured a cannon bone he could hardly have ran in the arc which was the plan.

Although he won 6 races in his career - Harbinger's greatness can only be judged on that one performance in the King George & Queen Elizabeth Stakes.

Rather like Hawk Wing's win in the Lockinge - by, a remarkably coincidental, similar 11 lengths.

Although, as foxy points out - who knows what Harbinger may have on to achieve.
------------

Whilst we are talking about 'double-digit' distance winners -

This thread has not thrown up SHERGAR, yet - 10 lengths at Sandown, 12 lengths in the Chester Vase, and 10 lengths, again, in the Derby.

great horse onlooker the only horse i ever saw applauded on the way to the start in the derby.

Onlooker that race in which you say promoted him to greatness was fatally flawed. I cannot for one single moment believe it was anything other than a scam by Tf and immediately put me on my guard from them and, true to form their deftness at inaccuracy continued.

looking back on harbingers king george cape blanco 2nd btn 11 lengths went on to beat rip van winkle 5 1/2 length in the irish champion stakes next time out,whilst the derby winner workforce 5th at ascot went on to win the arc next time out.

Yeah, I thought it Grundy and Bustino (1975). Surely, The Brigadier was a different era before then. I remember Grundy and a 10cc song being in the charts at the same time, 'Life Is a Minestrone.' Grundy was a really striking looking horse and goes down as one of my favourite Derby winners of all time. Have really liked loads of Derby winners and had luck backing them including Shirley Heights, Troy, Slip Anchor, Shahrastani (although Dancing Brave should have won), Reference Point, Lammtarra and Sea The Stars. One of my luckiest races, although recent years a bit lean

troy put up the best performance on derby day i ever saw and the form was also rock solid.

Foxy I sent a message.

Enjoy reading the posts from you lads about horses from the past.

My fav was Nijinsky. Thought VOB didn't cover himself in glory running the horse at the end of his career, when all was not right.

Love the Lester stories - keep up the good work lads.

another horse who falls into the harbinger category as in his best performance was his last performance before injury was golden fleece impossible to say where he would of ranked among the great middle distance horses.

Morning Foxy.
When Golden Fleece won the Derby he looked exceptional but what happened afterwards has always rankled with me. Sangster had another Horse named Assert who was trained by Vincent's son David. Golden Fleece had beaten Assert having his first run as a two year old but Assert was clearly improving fast. GF met Assert again as a 3 year old but the press were not happy with the way Assert was ridden so tenderly. Under normal circumstances, had assert not been owned by Sangster I think he wold have run in the Derby but logically he was switched to the French equivalent. Assert won that then won the Irish Derby then was beaten in the King George by Kalaglow before bolting up in the Juddmonte. He then won a small race before finishing down the field in the Arc. He was favorite for both the King George and the Arc.
Golden Fleece never ran again due to the cough and later a leg injury but I'm not sure about that, money talks. I think they couldn't run again without taking on Assert therefore splitting Sangsters best horses when there was a better financial alternative. I think if they thought GF would beat Assert that would have been better for GF but not for Assert so they kept them apart the only way they could.
The Free Handicap had them 1lb apart and the International Classifications did the same. I think Tf got it right giving Assert 134 and Golden Fleece 133.

Nureyev going through the sales ring - was on his way to Seven Barrows

I never knew that VL about Nureyef starting out at Walwyns.

Should never have got disqualified in Guineas. Interfered with Posse, Dunlop`s runner, a long long way from home. Posse was owned by Ogden Mills Phipps the big American owner who won the 1000 with Quick As Lightning ridden by Brian Rouse, his only Classic winner.

Rouse gave Lester a lift to Brighton one day. On the way home Piggott tells him to take the second left leaving track as there was a great shop that sold the world`d best ice cream. It was a scorching day so Brian does so. Lester returns to the car with the biggest 99 Cone one had ever seen and plonks himself in the passenger`s seat. Rouse blows a fuse. "ffs Lester, I drive you to Brighton and back and don`t take a penny petrol money from you and you buy one f****** cone!" "Oh", replies Piggott getting stuck into the cone, "I didn`t know that you liked Ice Cream!"

Great pictures from the Schweppes calendar VL. Classic Example belonging to Hue Williams was a good un. Nice silks. He owned some crackers over the years. Imperial Family, second in Derby to Snow Knight, was his.

Will try and find and upload the Walwyn string from 1979 Horses In Training with Nureyev in. Think he was moved to Boutin's yard in May or June.

The following picture is taken from the September 1978 edition of Pacemaker - the same one reporting the Keenland Sales that Nureyev topped. This pic was from a Jeffrey Bernard article titled ' The Lads of Lambourn'. Perhaps those on here who have worked or associated around the Lambourn or wider Berkshire area will recognise themselves or one of their buddies - 38 years ago though.

1979 Horses In Training DOES list NUREYEV with Peter Walwyn - Horse number 83(2yo) - verbotene - excellent call ... at lot of people would have never known that - Nothing on Nureyev's  Wikipedia page, either.

Listed with Boutin, of course, in 1980 Horses In Training.

Boutin had 147 horses listed in 1980

Walwyn had 115 listed in 1979.

good thread ,talking of the old shcwepps calenders i have one from the late 50s early 60s , the pics of horses are present but someone has removed the months from the bottom ,just pics of 12  horses ,including oxo ,morcombe, agreement ,alcide,epaulette,etc nice nostalgic pics just apity its not complete , am chucking it out but if anyone wants it let me know.

Re Nureyev; Timeform 79 reports that he left Walwyn for Boutin in the "summer".  It seems that Niarchos' decision to move him may have been prompted by the virus prevalent at that time or perhaps by the English and French VAT differentials.  In England, he would have been charged 15% of the purchase price and in France charged only on the carcase value. They do go on to say that this latter reason seems unlikely as Niarchos would have been aware of the tax implications at purchase.

Re the $1.3m purchase,  Robert Sangster (or reps of) was the underbidder at $1.25m

good morning brigust

i saw assert win the benson and hedges if i remember correctly pat rode him with a problem with his arm or hand a situation where nowadays the doctor would stand him down.

i spent many enjoyable nights at the red lion back in the 80s we always stayed there for the hennersy meeting plus a couple of summer fixtures at newbury,jimmy gould  was at the time involved in the place,does anybody know the reasons why it closed down and in which year ?

Re Nureyev moving

The other Niarchos horses remained - including Vaguely Tender who ( I've just checked) cost $380,000 at the same Keeneland sale.
The yard was definitely a slow sinking ship at the time with many patrons preferring other handlers or were fading forces themselves.

Louis Freedman - was now giving his stud's best yearlings to Cecil

Hue Williams family - were disappearing from the scene,

Captain McCalmont - was winding down - think Kampala was the last decent horse they had with Walwyn

The Goulandrais family( Hesmonds Stud) -  Walwyn had trained what was still probably their best horse, Formidable. They were starting to use other trainers

Oldrey - another owner breeder having less of an impact

Lord Howard de Walden - Was not using Walwyn anymore.

William Hill Bookmakers - who Walwyn had trained Sporting Yankee were leaving the scene as owners and had already turned to Stoute anyway.

Fond memories of Juliette Marny winning the Oaks in Grundy's year (1975). Had a golden spell those years in the Oaks too like Pawneese, Dunfermline and Bireme. Also particularly subsequently pleased with Bireme, Time Charter, Sun Princess and Oh So Sharp. However, like the Derby, pretty lean on the winners front in recent years

Oh Salsabil, Ouija Board and Light Shift

Just looking at the 1979 Walwyn string from 1979 - there is one notable absentee from the list that was not affirmed until after publication( I've written down in pen on my copy as had something of an obsession with the yard) - Jellaby, had gone to stud from Ryan Price's yard but was proving infertile and returned to training.

* string from Horses In Training

I know it is going back even further but does anyone know the merit of the horses that Ribot trounced in the 50's?

Ribot, like Arkle over jumps, was a freak of nature. Horses like them come along once every hundred years or so.

Here is a quality video of his final race winning his second Arc. Just copy and paste and video top right will play in a few seconds. I think his victims that day were French and Irish Derby winners and Washington DC winner. Someone can confirm. He destroyed the best around in Europe in 2 Arcs and a King George.

http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/youtube/56c24ce9becc47d4bbfe127f89839805

http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/youtube/56c24ce9becc47d4bbfe127f89839805

Whether it be the 1950's,60's or 70's, I think we would agree that racing was the better with the jam being spread more widely. Below is an example, the 1977 Yorkshire Oaks field from the racecard( my first visit to York). This day used to be unique in the sense that it was the only day in the Uk calendar with more than one G1 on the same card. All the runners in this race have no connection via ownership.The race was won by PT Walwyn's Busaca owned by Countess Esterhazy. This was the last time Walwyn would win this event.

PT Walwyn's 1979 string - things were going downhill already but you could not have predicted that down the line it would finish with him being propped up by Hamdan.
Of the older horses in this string, Camden Towm had been runner up to Try My Best in the Dewhurst, former Middle Park winner Formidable( arguably still the best horse Goulandris family/Hesmonds Stud have had)would find that 7 f was eventually his best trip - they had messed up badly with him, even running him in the Derby.
Of the 3 year olds Kampala would eventually win the Hungerford and sire Arc winner Tony Bin. New Berry would give some hope when beating Niniski in the Glasgow but ended up in handicaps the following year.And apart from Nureyev there is nothing of real note amongst all those juveniles.

This is an ante-post list prior to the beginning of the 1978 season.The Walwyn horses were less prominent than they had been for many years - all quoted at biggish odds - in the Derby he has Bolak, Formidable, Hills Treble and Huaralino. In the Oaks Flaming Leaves, Shorthouse and Seraphima ( think she eventually finished fourth and don't think the yard had another one so close from then on).
The rot was already setting in.

You don't see lists like that anymore cool more have seen to that.

On the Peter walwyn front does anybody remember the horse football

Trying to remember...did Leonardo da Vinci not burst onto the Derby scene briefly...was he trained by Peter Walwyn?1978 that is...my very first year following racing...I'm sure Shirley Heights beat him in the Dante but memory could be playing tricks

Julio mariner and le moss went on to fight out the finish in that seasons St leger

Correct lead on at the time pat had said he was the best horse he had ever ridden.

Ile de bourbon king George winner

Foxy - here is a link to Football - http://racingmemories.hk/hottopics/football-as134/

Appears that he was sold/sent to Hong Kong at the end of his 3yo career. Fourth on debut (Goodwood) and then unplaced (Clarence House at Ascot) in two runs at 2. Won three times (Pontefract, Windsor twice from five runs at 3.

It was ponte I remember him from Blackbarn had a friend who worked at seven barrows back then and always remember him rating football quite highly at a sensible level,Monday afternoons was always a trip to ponte back then only an hour away he got a right cheer that day smoking joe I think rode him.

Did da Vinci not win on his debut at Newmarket in the Wood Ditton? or was it another race? I know Wildenstein owned him.

TMM -yep, Wood Ditton, White Rose ( slaughtered Nicholas Bill) then beat in the Dante and the few weeks hype was over.

Amazing to think that when Oats finished third in the 1976 Derby - Walwyn would never again even have a placed horse in the event(not checked the books on that but sure thats right). And this at the time when every juvenile from the yard that won a maiden at a half decent track was a getting a classic quote. There was a 2 year old called Night Before who for a short while was 16/1 favourite for the 1977 Derby after winning a Lingfield maiden in 1976. He did make the field but was not fancied and bbv'd and was pulled up.