The Sun -declaring Leave

I remember about your business paganin, but most people don't have very much to lose as they see it, and the potential for a better way of life.

That is why it is different for all Saddo, and why not all people will vote for the same reason on both leave and reamin.

People saying the NHS will be better off if we leave are completely clueless. 1. The economy is sure to crash. Virtually every independent economist recognises this, the markets recognise this. The only people who don't are the blind leavers. 2. We will have a government led by Johnson, Gove and IDS none of whom even believe in a free health service.

In addition this is about moving forward in a integrated peaceful Europe where we all work together to provide a better future. It's not about division led by right wing tabloids and Farage with his Nazi style propaganda.

No its about furry rabbit socialists who have destroyed the prospects of the youth of Europe based on their crazy world of correctness.

A tiny part of me would love to see what Boris does if it does happen. Probably beg to rejoin! I am still waiting for a last minute switch of sides from him if he believes remain will win. All for his career I am afraid.

Paganin when you have a bet and you are turned away do you give up or go elsewhere? Exactly.

6m
Britain Elects‏ @britainelects
EU referendum poll:
Remain: 48% (-)
Leave: 49% (+1)
(via SurveyMonkey / 17-20)
Pollster not a member of BPC.

Johnson without doubt on the leave side for his career. A chance of becoming PM. Don't see him switching now though even if he thinks he can't win.

The economy crashed in 2008 yet the NHS survived so scare mongering doesn't work.

We need more skilled labour to put good money into the Exchequer and use less resources than the masses of unskilled. cheap labour who put little into the Exchequer while being a heavy drain on resources. It is not rocket science.

And the only way we will attract more skilled labour while curbing the mass of unskilled labour is to LEAVE.

Apparently all the independent economists are wrong and Brigust is correct on his assessment of the economy. It's a simple maths equation. If the economy is doing much worse there is less money to go into services. (especially with a right wing government)

Gordon Brown making speech Edinburgh,45 mins

You keep saying "It's not rocket science".

But where do you answer the simple question; who will do the jobs that migrant workers currently undertake?

My company employs 2,500 temp workers a year; mainly unskilled and semi-skilled. I can never get more than 5% of the workers we need from the indigenous stock. And, yes, we pay everyone properly and comply with all obligations as an absolute minimum.

Asparagus how do you work that out. It is REMAIN nonsense.

Boris has chosen a side that at the time had no chance of winning and he was backing a system against the status quo. He would have had much more chance sticking with the REMAIN side and waiting until Cameron resigned ffs. By choosing the LEAVE side he and Gove have possibly sunk their chances of being PM.

I wonder how many of the REMAIN MP's are only doing it for their careers and not the country?

brigust1    21 Jun 16 15:47 
The economy crashed in 2008 yet the NHS survived so scare mongering doesn't work.

We need more skilled labour to put good money into the Exchequer and use less resources than the masses of unskilled. cheap labour who put little into the Exchequer while being a heavy drain on resources. It is not rocket science.

And the only way we will attract more skilled labour while curbing the mass of unskilled labour is to LEAVE.





Agree with all that.

But we are not getting the money from low skilled, cheap labour ffs.

I guess the reason you can only get 5% from the indigenous stock is that they cannot live on the wages you pay. That needs to change. Either someone is taking the cream off the top or the price of product they are producing is being keep artificially down.

This may be good in the short term, but is not sustainable.

The EU and the British government is using the same system. 'System working well send more money'.

Brigust- the bet analogy is obviously a stupid comment and has nothing to do with the referundum.

Cyclops is exactly right and I see the same on the workforce. On the manufacturing shop floor in lower skilled jobs Uk people would rather not take it.

You have a simplistic view of things Brigust from an economic perspective. There is absolutely no guarantee that the NHS wont be worse and you think its a done deal. Lots of skilled migrant workers have helped the NHS massively too.

As for Boris- oh please. Even the most ardent leave supporters know it suits him in his quest for number 10.

That is such rubbish. How can Boris or Gove stand to be PM is he loses the referendum? It's total nonsense.

What you are telling me is that if we leave you haven't the ability to steer your company successfully. Is that what you are saying?

So if we vote to LEAVE you are just going to give up. Leave it out.

Hopefully if we vote LEAVE the people who have been making hay off the backs of cheap labour, illegal immigration etc will feel the pinch. They have driven a whole generation of this country into non home owners to suit their own ends and the ends of their profiteering paymasters. Shame on them.

Why do you think the rich have got richer and the poor, poorer?

Boris has led leave so that if they win he thinks he will become PM! He has Identified it as a way into power. I am amazed you can't recognise that he sees this as his opportunity.

You make running a business sound very simplistic. If you sell to European governments and those governments stop buying then of course you have a problem Brigust. For governments read any company in fact. As for steering its not like driving a car either! External things out of your control often lead to massive problems.

Of course I am not going to give up but why would I want to make it more difficult for myself if I can't actually see any definite and real benefits of leaving.

brigust, your argument is based on an incorrect premise.

You say wages at the bottom are so low, Brits won't work for them, ignoring the fact that our minimum wage is now the highest in Europe, with the exception of Luxembourg. And it is due to rise by around 8% pa until 2020.

Wages at the lower end have risen, and continue to rise, sharply, allied with an increase in the tax thresholds, so that the lowest paid are far better off than a few years back. And still, Brits are unwilling to undertake such work, so we need migrants.

And we now have "full employment" so, in economic terms, there wouldn't be enough people to do the work if you cut down on migration. How would that help anything?

Xenophobia can blind people to the facts and has done throughout this campaign.

There are no definite benefits to leaving. A few guesses, a lot of unknowns and a massive downside according to independent economists.
The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer because we have a Conservative government (and before that a new labour government who were virtually Tories in disguise). I'm not saying that's wrong necessarily but that is clearly the reason for the widening gap. It has very little relevance to leaving or staying in the EU.

I wonder if any of these economist have ever worked out how much a migrant arriving here with a wife and 2 kids must earn to be a net contributor to the country. That is taking into account housing, health care, schools, social services, child allowance etc. It could be an interesting calculation.

Xenophobia and people getting immigration confused with asylum seeking Cyclops.

On immigration if we leave, don't you think that people will flood in over the next two years or so while they still can. Numbers will go up rather than decline while we stay in and 2 years wont be it. Gove himself says 4.Immigration shouldnt be an argument to leave.

Pag that was a much bigger gamble than waiting until after the referendum and DC to leave. It is that fact that convinces me he is genuine. Unlike Teresa May as one example.

Don't insult me Cyclops, I haven't insulted you.

If we have full employment why, please tell me, do we need another 300,000 immigrants next year, and the year after, and the year after. 

The health service will not get better, it is at breaking point now. The schools and prisons are fully and there is a huge housing shortage. The Government is cutting everything from children's services to women's services, libraries, you name it. And you want more of the same?

Boris genuine!!!! You cant seriously believe that. He was an open supporter of the EU only a year or so ago. Come on Brigust. Some of your arguments are valid and I respect your opinions but Boris genuinely wanting to leave the EU....

We are continually told that unskilled migrants are going menial jobs which could go to skilled workers - why would an employer pay somebody more for doing a similar job?

The EU introduced either directly or indirectly legislation which protects workers and I can guarantee that the likes of Johnson, Gove et al would quickly erode employee rights if we left with their philosophy of free market enterprise

I'd vote to stay in the single market. I'm in favour of the single market," he told Sky News. "I want us to trade freely with our European friends and partners."

A Boris quote from 2014!!!!

To say that we will no longer have access to the European labour market if we leave is a total nonsense.

We keep hearing about the thousands of migrants without whom the NHS would be in dire trouble and I agree.

However,if we leave what is to stop us doing what countries like Canada and Australia have done for ages,

and hire qualified people from other parts of Europe?

I am not saying immigration should stop. I am saying we must be more selective at this time to balance the ship. If we keep refusing skilled labour the companies needing skilled labour will leave set up elsewhere.

A year ago Cameron said he was going to Brussels to get massive changes. He sold it to me and he sold it to you but he came back with less than nothing it was a complete con. He even watered everything down before he went. If he thinks immigration should be in the 10s of thousands, which he did, why is it OK now?  That is why Boris thinks we should leave.

I'm in favour of the single market as well. But why should I have to pay to be in it and also pay tariffs on other countries imports just because I am a member?

The EU is just like pyramid selling it is a money making exercise for an elitist group to control others. Not for me.

I'm in favour of the single market- so are you voting remain then?

brigust:

"If we have full employment why, please tell me, do we need another 300,000 immigrants next year, and the year after, and the year after". 

Because, if the economy grows, more jobs will be created. The economy will not grow if there are insufficient people to do the work, skilled or unskilled.

from the guy who sold gold

Staying in the EU will create 'up to 500,000 jobs' in the UK, former Prime Minister Gordon Brown

Do you really think leaving the EU club means leaving the single market Pag? Do you seriously think BMW, Volkswagen etc well not want to sell us their cars? Do you really think that.

What the EU is really afraid of is that we can manage very nicely without them thank you. They are dinosaurs but don't yet know it.

Wrong Cyclops. What we will end up with is a back street country providing masses of cheap labour for big businesses who will make all of the profits and they will not be in this country. They are not our businesses they are foreign businesses. We will be the workhouse of Europe.

By LEAVING we will be able to bypass the middleman, the EU establishment. We will be trading directly with the big and small businesses in Europe and doing it very nicely thank you.

The middle ma, the EU establishment, will crumble and fall as it has been for the last 25 years.

Why do you keep talking about cheap labour when, as I mentioned, we have the highest minimum wage in Europe?

Brigust- you are ignoring some important facts. I dont disagree that the EU needs massive reform at going forward it is essential this happens. I only hope that we can be a part of that and change things for the better.

There are many other smaller companies than BMW etc that will be effected. As always people focus on the headline making companies and ignore the smaller ones who dont have the brand and size but do still employ and pay people.

If we leave the EU do you seriously think we will be welcome to do trading deals with open arms. As much as I dont like her Merkel was fairly conclusive when she said we wouldnt be at the front of any queue! We wont be at the table so wont have much say. I do think we sometimes think the UK is irreplaceable in all areas of business. I am not so sure Brigust

We will be directly trading with people in the EU. From this can I conclude you havent ever directly traded abroad? It really really isnt that simple and trust me it is far easier to sell to countries in the EU than those outside it. Being part of the establishment as you put it makes doing business a hell of a lot easier.

The minimum wage Cyclops is an accountants dream. Giving the low paid spenders, not savers, more money helps business. They spend more, generally all they have because it is only small therefore creating more turnover therefore creating more lower skilled jobs. It's a cycle that only helps those at the top. You then get more people in spending more small amounts of money creating more low skilled jobs servicing their requirements. The problem is unless the numbers are huge it doesn't work and the infrastructure buckles under the strain. And that is where we are today.

Germany has made hay out of this situation that is why Merkel is pro EU. But the German businesses will not stand back when it comes to trading and Merkel will have to go with the flow or step aside.
And the small businesses, so far weighted down by regulation, will still want to trade with their existing customers.

Brigust- how do businesses just give low paid spenders more??!! Again I dont get this. Market conditions dictate wages etc- do you think companies will just double wages so Bob has more to spend in the pub!!?? Its not the real world mate.

Small companies are not weighted down by regulations when trading with EU countries. That is propaganda and nonsense and I can say that categorically. We do it every day and there is no red tape. Selling to Norway is a different however....

Market conditions? Double wages? What are you talking about. The minimum or living wage wasn't brought in because of market conditions it was supposedly brought in to foil rip off merchants. Apparently.

But, as I said, it is an accountants dream. Small amounts of money going to low paid workers will be spent therefore that money will pass though businesses, wages etc. Say the extra bit of money is spent in Tesco's that will increase their turnover and staffing requirements with some going as profits and some back to the government in NI and tax and VAT.
It works providing the profit's are reinvested in the community and not going to shareholders.

Of course, what matters is not relative regulatory burdens but absolute ones.

In an imaginary world where everybody had a minimum wage of £20 an hour, and 20pc unemployment, the fact that we had  one of £19 and 19pc unemployment would hardly be something to boast about. The reality is that the UK is now saddled with far greater amounts of red tape – forcing up energy costs and making industry uncompetitive, for example – than used to be the case. The fact that other economies have made the same mistakes (in many cases because of the EU) is immaterial.  It is terrifying that a Tory Treasury no longer sees this.



And for those who wonder why the Labour Party supports REMAIN:

The Government’s second major concession was far more public.


David Cameron has done a deal with trade unions to back the EU
In an astonishing u-turn, the Prime Minister has done a deal with the trade unions to ensure that they back his Remain campaign.

Many of the proposed reforms to their power – contained clearly in the Tory manifesto – will no longer happen. Despite this, it remains hard for business leaders to come out in favour of Brexit; the majority of those who have declared, and almost all business lobby groups, have backed Remain. The peer pressure is all one, with endless utterly implausible scare stories on trade in particular.

So the fact that 110 business leaders, including HSBC’s former boss Mike Geoghegan, have just signed a pro-Brexit letter is a great statement of intent, especially given that they explicitly single out EU regulation as a major threat to the City.

It stinks! It stinks! It stinks!

I assume that is the same Mike Geoghegan who after being found involved in the 2012 Mexican money laundering scandal was sacked by HSBC and then who in April 2016 was named as one of the major clients in the Panama scandal! AN upstanding example to us all!!

He will be pro whatever pays him the most Brigust. Anyway nice chatting to you and all the best come Thursday evening and friday. Everyone has different opinions don't forget and everyone is entitled to their opinion however right or wrong you may think that is.

A good article in today's Standard, brigust, by Anthony Hilton which opposed your view and concludes:
"It is difficult to see how leaving the EU can do anything other than make British employment even more insecure and British workers even more worse off".

The rise in minimum wage here is to make it more attractive to unskilled EU migrants and to prevent them being totally exploited by employers here who welcome this cheap labour with open bank balances. It is purely to keep the EU cheap labour oversupply train running on time for businesses exploiting them to attain huge wage profits instead of paying fair wages to a smaller pool of workers already here.

Market forces ensures too many people seeking work leads to wage compression for everyone and drives company wage profits up. It isnt rocket science. The EU is a business owners dream leading to vast wage profits and a working mans nightmare towards ever lower wages and unemployment. The unemployment rate in EU countries is already soaring due to this. Wake up and vote OUT to protect the future of your children and their children.

Captain Christy:

"I was borm and live in the English midlands oldgit"
Why do I get the impression from some of your postings you are Irish?
I've moved so often that I no longer claim to be from anywhere.

Cyclops one of the reasons you may find it difficult to recruit low paid workers from the UK could be because they have gone to college. Where school leavers etc would go into work and only a small percentage went to college now that number is huge because then the Government doesn't have to include them on the unemployment list and they leave college owning the Government thousands of pounds. Their details are then sold off to brokers for them to collect the money.

Another Government scam in spades.

I see dodgy Dave did an emergency plea today. He says we are in peril and face ruin, the prospect of such a fate did not bother him when he offered the referendum simply to buy another term in office.

We will be in the Shiite make no mistake and will look a right bunch of mugs grovelling to get back into it on THEIR terms not ours.

Most of the leave advocates have only ever had to think up to their next giro or weekly cheque from their employer little wonder they do not have any thought for the consequences.

And you think the remain voters get their living from where exactly, Cap'n?

Let's say that the leave voters are somewhat 'intellectually challenged'.

Let's say that the leave voters are somewhat 'intellectually challenged'.

Well i'm certainly not. The UK government has decreed I can't vote, but if I could, it would be a definite out.

At the moment they seem to be challenging the intellectuals, the irony eh.

Well I guess you've been living in Sweden for too long.

No, W. Yorks here.

Captain Christy, you are coming across very poorly suggesting leave supporters are intellectually challenged. There are some great economic brains, great business leaders and generally clever people who want to leave and many for reasons that don't even include migration.

I have an Economics degree, speak 3 European languages and strongly believe that Brexit is clearly the best option for the UK. Don't confuse Farage with the other arguments, he is probably the reason we will lose and that is a nightmare for people with vision.

Captain Christy    21 Jun 16 20:21 
Well I guess you've been living in Sweden for too long.

My third time here and this occasion since 2007; best thing I ever did. I get back to UK regularly and i'm happy to return here. England is not the country I was born in and used to know (sadly).

Farage and Ukip is the reason we are getting a vote like him or not.

Unfortunately, the British public are a danger to themselves as they lack the intellect to know what is good for them.

It is obvious that well founded arguments of Leave are defeating Project Fear hands down however the British public will do as they are told by the propoganda machine. Depressing isnt it.

Seems like every fcukwit i know is a leave voter.. And why the fcuk someone living in fricking Sweden thinks they should have right to fcuk  a country up that they don't even live in.. I'm lost for words.

Left wingers like Captain Christy will be the downfall of our country and will definitely be the first to go quiet when it all goes wrong.

Hi Andrew. How are you? Did you have a good Ascot? I came back for a couple of days at Ascot then stayed to vote. Leaving again on Friday morning.

I just cannot believe the lengths Cameron, the Labour party and the unions have gone to to screw up the country. I have no problem with a fair debate and a fair fight but they never intended that to happen right from the start. I wonder why?

Why the fcuk someone living up his own ar*e with the same name as a brilliant chaser .... i'm lost for words

Andrew,

The Captain is just acting the kernt, he's ok really.

Hi Brigust, long time, no chat. Ascot was good, specially Quick Reflection and a couple of very classy 2 year olds.

Cameron and Blair before him must be the worse leaders we've had in a very long time.

Holywell

Half the fcuckers think that if only we didnt have the european court of human rights the country would be so much better off. I think their ideal is a fourth reich led by Farage.

Captain Christy you obviously dont like freedom of speech you would have that in common with a reich.

"intellectually challenged" coming from Captain Christy! That is ripe.

My main bet was Found, sadly. I couldn't have the favourite and the she was the only danger so backing her instead of laying him seemed logical.

I backed the Gold Cup winner and because Henry Candy gets his paper from the same shop I backed Twilight Son. That wasn't the only reason of course but it helped.

If I hear take back control once more..... Absolute no policies but just a slogan.

This worries me more than anything. The faith the people put in idiots like Boris.  They have absolutely no plan at all.

Dimbleby showing his bias as always.

Its hard not to be biased Eric. Watching this is painful. I feel for genuine leave voters as you can't possibly be happy with this. Absolute nothing offered in terms of any definite policy. Just take back control, take back control....... what the hell is that!!

I would be embarrassed if i was Remain. No arguments at all just Project Fear and the ultimate self destruction of the unions taking place in front of us. They used to stand for the working man now they stand for the multinationals and political elite. They will be gone within decades.

Project fear- another slogan! If we leave I want to be confident we have the people in place so we can trade with the rest of the world- including the EU- I want to know what immigration levels will be, I want to know what will happen to exchange rates and the cost of living. They cant even give any stats on what they want for immigration!!

It is so so worrying this. Independent experts saying the economy will crash and yet we have no policies to combat this just take back control......

Its awful Eric and the vote is yours but my god does this scare me if we leave.

The woman with the mic is removing it from Leavers before they make their point ha ha BBC

The racecard is well out here. Welcome to shut up Britain.

One I heard today was that Germany are taking us over through Europe because they didn't win the war ffs

Another reason for the fcukwits is that paedos apparently escape sentences simply by appealing at the European Court of Human Rights FFS

Never seen the Khan geezer before. Shouty repetition, make a good darts commentator wac.

What you all doing watching that when there's football on?

He is the Mayor of London Saddo- did you miss that??

His prolonged row with Boris is painful however. Ruth Davidson covered herself best by miles

It had lost my bet by half time McCoy so switched over!!!

Not been a bad match.

2-1 to Croatia

Spain look brilliant on the ball as always but dodgy defensively especially from crosses.

I did  paganin. Don't do politics really but do think democracy= accountability and EU is no democracy.
Also unmentioned in all this is where do we go when our southern border is in the desert. Has to be east and Ukraine. Are we hoping to bribe Russia to join eventually or do the USA see us as the perfect buffer zone for a new cold war?

brigust1    21 Jun 16 20:58 

I backed the Gold Cup winner and because Henry Candy gets his paper from the same shop I backed Twilight Son. That wasn't the only reason of course but it helped.

The GC winner looked a bit special (sadly I didn't back it, had the 2nd EW though). He could be another Sagaro or *eats and win several. It may be going for the Melbourne cup, if so, it would have a serious chance although it will be carrying a fair bit of weight . I was impressed with Quiet Reflection, she looks very useful, a good turn of foot. Good luck Brigust, I guess you are still living in France ?.

In or out, with the major growth in poverty, people will not be able to escape it, no matter what shore they move too. It is shocking to enter any city in the UK and witness  people sleeping rough in daylight hours, was this the post-war dream, is this what Aneurin Bevan had planned ( I think not)  The elite and rich  have spread their word of greed so much that all have become self-centered moral-less psychopaths  driven by the need for more at any cost. Population growth is of no concern to those who sell products, it just means more hands capable of buying, self-destruction is imminent as is a major war.  The city naturally spreads outwards, those that hide in the rural communities will have their peace invaded.

Good morning Andrew & MJ, goodness I thought I was up early.

I also backed the third in the Gold Cup Sheikhazaderoad (or something like that). I think £13 for a burger and £95 for a bottle of fizz was a bit steep though.
Yes still dividing my time and loving every minute.
I'm finding it all a bit off this year. Not sure quite how good the Guineas and Derby winners are but the sprinters are looking like a goodish bunch. Minding obviously stands out but her form is falling to bits. Order of St George did look good but an Arc winner? Not in my mind.

The bit that surprised me was learning of the deal DC made with the unions if they supported his REMAIN campaign. In 2015 manifesto the Tories were voted in on Union reforms then agreed with the union leaders to shelve it if they backed him. That was the game changer and how many people know?

DAVID CAMERON climbed down on controversial trade union reforms to secure union support for the EU referendum Remain campaign in an echo of the "cash for questions" scandal, a leading Eurosceptic has claimed.

Bernard Jenkin claimed No 10 instructed ministers to offer concessions on the Trade Union Bill over members opting in to political funds after discussions with union representatives in order to get their support for Remain.

The Conservative MP said it amounted to "the sale of Government policy for cash and political favours" and put the Government at the "rotten heart" of the European Union.

It was Ted Heath( conservative) that signed up for Europe, conservatives and capitalists have pursued a bureaucracy, where change is  made difficult and slow or even against the new corporate laws that are passed. It was an anti-socialist platform, and the Tory boys and girls loved the idea.

America backs Europe (say no more)

I think Cameron has done a deal with the BBC, at one point it looked like they where going to lose the license fee. Now all is forgiven thanks to their support.

The left have been hounded by America since the end of World war 2 - https://youtu.be/nJzV6-wJ3SQ

Don't bring your European socialism here was the message, and now they back Europe. THEY HAVE CONTROL!