JOHN RICKMAN plus the ITV 7 -Golden Days or not ? 35 years ago .......

I remember just one channel.

One of the differences (imo) is that in the 'Rickman days', it was all about showing you the sport - yes it was all very amateurish (in many ways) compared with today's productions - but the presenters were almost irrelevant - now many see themselves as celebrities. (Rickman used to doff his hat to the viewer when introducing the programme, and again when saying goodbye. Maybe he was a tw&t in real life, but the attitude was that they were providing a service for the viewer, not that you were lucky to be able to hear pearls of wisdom drop from their lips). Now, the presenters are a big part of the show - and it reached its nadir (for me) with Andrew Franklin and the C4 team 'having lots of fun and inviting the viewer to tune in and watch them having lots of fun' - well good for them, but I want to see as much of the horses as possible.

Also, the modern obsession with constant repetitive 'highlights packages', self-promotions (of channels), and 'close-ups' of horses in races and in finishes - all detract from the sport itself - so are all backward steps from the old days (for me) rather than forward steps.

..and one more comment, brought to mind by the word 'static' - and I'll go back 50 years, not 35, though this is about the BBC. I remember watching the BBC coverage of the Epsom spring meeting in 1966 on a weekday afternoon in April, and Peter O'Sullevan and Julian Wilson reviewed all the races, in slow motion, from start to finish - every single stride - discussing the way the races played out. (A particular subject of interest was how the Derby fav Pretendre handled the track in the Blue Riband Trial under Paul Cook, a young jockey who had, I think, just ridden out his claim, and who some were thinking might not be able to handle the big horse on the big day. As it turned out, he just gone done in a photo in the Derby by Charlottown, but he acted fine on the track, as far as I remember, both in the trial, which he won, and in the big race itself).

I would agree with much of what ged says - I started watching racing in early 70s & whilst they did not have the technical gimmickry they concentrated on the horses almost exclusively with odd jockey or trainer interviews - C4 and the like are now all about the presenters and how they are the focal point of the presentation - it detracts completely from what the programme should be about

Perhaps younger viewers see it differently but the "joie de vivre" spirit they seem to try and exploit on the screen fails miserably

my memories of itv racing are somewhat sepia tinted ...the reality was showing racing at Sedgefield,Catterick and the like.All the main meetings were on the bbc.

Blimey GED that BBC prog of 50 years ago with the wonderful Peter O and the Eton toff Julian must have made a big impression on you to be able to recall it !
But the actual HORSE RACING on CH 4 these days often seems secondary to the self promotion and "showbiz" side of things .
Perhaps the new prog ,whatever it may be should go back to basics . Its the actual races and horses and jockeys we want to hear about and not all the misc stuff that detracts the attention ?

GED -you mention PAUL COOK. Well he provided me with my biggest ever win on horse racing when he won the ST Leger on Touching Wood trained by Thompson Jones in about 1982. I can still see it winning now with absolute clarity. It was a hot day as well because I remember my wife was sunbathing in the back garden when I broke the good news . We booked a holiday in Mexico the week after which took at least half the winnings !

It's true ITV mainly showed the gaffe tracks,though they had Sandown,but an addict like myself used to go home for lunch from school to watch a selling hurdle at Plumpton     

I think we might be talking about a golden age of racing in the 70's, but not really in terms of presentation.

Having said that it is a very well point about the numerous gravy trainers giving the impression that they are almost more important than the stars of the sport, which of course are the horses.

Well in terms of presentation, I'd say it was superior. On BBC coverage, they'd have one meeting, and you'd watch all the horses walking round the paddock for the whole time they were in it - real time - not paddock shots packaged up and slotted in afterwards. You'd also see them walking to the paddock, and leaving it. It was much more like being at the racetrack than it is now. So, imo, that is superior to a 'preesenter-based' coverage.

I agree ged and certainly on the BCC it took two people to present it ( and I suspect the backroom staff were far fewer too ).

ITV should state that they will not be interviewing jockeys, trainers or owners (and will not have any on a morning line type program as well)before or after races as they are they are likely to criticise and well as praise and that does not go down well with the racing fraternity.
Without the publicity and exposure, people like McCoy would probably never got any awards, soon see how long it takes before they start bleating they're not getting enough coverage. TV exposure is vital for new trainers to get new owners etc so it would be interesting to see if ITV took this stance what would happen.
Unfortunately we know they wont.

"I remember John Rickman very well -always well dressed with neatly trimmed moustache."

Hope they resurrect the old itv midweek racing theme............what a tune that was..........da da da daa da da da da da da da dada dada

seem to remember Rickman tipped as Gimcrack in the Daily Mirror.

Not Daily Mirror - they always had Newsboy and Bouverie. Daily Mail perhaps, or Daily Sketch. He owned a horse called The Wig, I think. I remember it running on the programme when he was fronting it. I think it got placed several times as a 2yo, not sure it ever won.

I think he was Robin Goodfellow.

I say that because it was stated in his obituary but , like Posy, I had always thought he was Gymcrack .
Ged, what can you tell me about Mr Rickman's associate George Doby? Perhaps it was Dobbie .

I think posy's right in saying he tipped as Gimcrack (he may also have had a spell as Robin G), but I can't remember which paper that was in, though I'd have a little bet on it being the Sketch before that paper disappeared.

dunlaying - nothing I'm afraid - I'd have to go googling.

''And they all go as in your morning paper''

Robin Goodfellow was Daily Mail....thought he was Peter O'Sullivan but probably wrong.

Peter O'Sullevan was Daily Express, (he just tipped under his own name I think), along with Bendex (Charles Benson, the backgammon player), and The Scout (Clive Graham) - at least that's how it was when I was reading it as a kid. O'Sullevan used to produce some terrific lists of horses to follow - unraced horses - I remember horses like Motacilla and Favorita (sp) from Wragg's, Double Cream (Elsey), Knighton House from Gordon Richards - they almost all won races, and several won good class races. Given that he probably kept the best for himself, he must have had excellent connections.

Bob Butchers was Newsboy in The Daily Mirror and his Nap selection was a popular choice in the shops.
Who was Bouverie, any ideas?

Dun. Charlie Fawcus?

Certainly felt more like you were watching a programme about racing, rather than a load of presenters that think they are more important than anything else.

Tim Richards was also in the Daily Mirror - northern correspondent

Thank you Pinhooker. I will investigate further.

he,s a little tale from the itv 7 days,in them days we had a nice little bozzer over the rd from bookies and a good crowd would spent sat afternoon in there back and forth to the betting shop,ex boro legend [LOL] TERRY COCHRANE GOT THE ITV 7 UP,but laddies couldnt pay him in out in cash but let him bet in credit for the rest of the day,by the last race he was borrowing of lads in pub for a last bet,all gone, LOL

Arthur Salter was the Daily Mail's R Goodfellow in the early '70's, succeeded by Jack Millan (who I think was Captain Hath before he got the main job) and then Sam Turner I believe

Captain Heath

O'Sullevan used to give a treble in the Express; Heath did likewise for the Mail

The Daily Express was very fortunate to have two top class journalists writing for them at the same time .Peter O,Sullivan and the Scout -alias  Clive Graham.
My dear old Mum used to send me every Saturday morning to the local bookies with her bet -it was always the Scouts Double . She seemed to win quite often because I had to collect the winnings and I got extra pocket money !
What days they were . So simple and trouble free !

Anyone remember a Daily Mail bet under the name  Roll Up ...there wasn't a bet every day and from memory the idea was to try to select (can't remember how many) consecutive winners. Most of course were very short prices and I recall horses like Flyingbolt,Dickey May and The Laird being selections.I used to follow it avidly and remember my housemaster thinking I at age 13 was taking a keen interest in the news because at morning break he always saw me reading the paper. Used to go to the local village bookie (which was just someone's front room) where the bets were collected and taken to a nearby town for settlement and winnings were ready the following day.

Maybe the most worthwhile newspaper tipping item ever was Betting Spy in The Sun nearly 40 years ago. Didn't last long though - don't know why it suddenly vanished.

Who can forget Cayton in the Morning Star

Who remembers super nap was an excellent tipster for the sun I think

The false added in galloping sounds...

posy, remember the Daily Mail roll up the aim was to get 20 winners in an accumulator, don,t think they ever did it however lots of fun.

thank you tiger...from memory they certainly had winning runs in the teens.

Spotform(?) ratings in the Daily Mirror were good too in the 60s and 70s.

The original Newsboy was probably worth taking notice of. I didn't know at the time, I thought he was just another newspaper tipster, but his uncle trained a Gold Cup winner, and Carrickbeg, and he himself was a jockey with Tom Masson and George Todd

...(that post went before I meant it too)...

...and he was good friends with Bill Rees and Bob Turnell, and others in the racing fraternity, so in doing the job for nearly 40 years, he had plenty of genuine contacts, and was a proper racing man himself.

Was that Bob Butchers, Ged?

Yes. Should have mentioned his name. His uncle was Don Butchers. His grandfather also trained, and I think his father rode. (also, above, "meant it to*", not too. Bad forum habits I say)

Great video here involving Lord Oaksey.

https://youtu.be/Za4RWUydIuI

I've probably posted this before on here, but I can remember when the Sun first came out - must have been mid-60s. It was a broadsheet, with greyer print than other newspapers, that didn't come off on your hands as much as the tabloid Mirror, with an orange sun in the top left/right corner. I was in my early years in secondary school and used to have to travel up to London on the train every day, and my aunt worked in Bermondsey and she travelled on the same train, and she was a racing fan - she had a betting account with William H1ll (and before that with Alfred Copes). So she bought the Sun that first day - we were both only really interested in the racing pages. They had Templegate (can't remember who it was), and Sunny Jim, and Tom Pepper I think.

Daily Express also had Riddle-me-Ree - tip was in form of a rhyme that hinted at the horse's name. Carp, of course.

In those days I seem to remember the Sun also frequently had a short couple of paragraphs (can't recall the 'heading')  written by someone who seemed to know his onions...well remember one of these articles talking about how good a bet Persian War was for his 2nd run.

Generally speaking, racing correspondents in those days knew far more than the present generation who rely almost exclusively on computer data bases.

Waste of everybody's time.

I remember the first issue of The Sun and Riddle Me Ree . There was a cartoon tip in The Sun . On Derby day the drawing was of a gentleman pointing to his shoe. An old-timer in the office had to explain to a baffled Dunlaying that the tip was for Blakeney.

I remember the first roll up.They tried to get ten winners.I think they got to six.The problem arose when they tipped the unbeaten mummys pet.One of the other horses in the field was something called Brigadier Gerard.

sorry dunlaying you'll have to explain that cartoon tip.

http://theshoebuff.com/shoes/churchs-blakeney-suede-shoes/

Anyone remember Raymond Glendenning, i read his biography many years ago ,bit dry but quite interesting.
Found this online

As a pioneer in the art of live commentary Glendenning had his share of mishaps. His ‘hoodoo’ event was the Cambridgeshire race. In 1951 he managed to describe this from start to finish without once mentioning the winner, the aptly named Fleeting Moment. He had, though, a less than ideal vantage point in the stands and struggled to distinguish between forty-five riders, three of whom, including the winner, wore different combinations of the same colours, orange and purple.

Raymong Glendenning also commentated on boxing (along with W Barrington Dalby) as well as football, tennis and god knows what else - the Clare Balding of his day...

Theloungerontherrail - "I remember the first roll up.They tried to get ten winners.I think they got to six.The problem arose when they tipped the unbeaten mummys pet.One of the other horses in the field was something called Brigadier Gerard".

and then MP got beaten by an even better 2yo

Madhatter.
Was it not Cameronian's Three in the Daily Mail?
Peter O'Sullevan's Three in the Express always had a better priced EW selection that a lot of people followed.
The best paper was the Racehorse that came out on a Wednesday. It only had four pages but was packed full of information. Quinton Gilbey was one of its correspondents. It later merged with the Sporting Chronicle Handicap Book. 
One of the best writers at that time was ex trainer Tim Fitzgeorge Parker ( Marcus Tregoning's uncle) He wrote for the Mail and later the Handicap Book. He had been a pupil of Atty Persse who trained The Tetrach. Parker also wrote a brilliant little book Training the Racehorse.

anyone land the itv7...........never got near my self..........a workmate landed it but it was all jollies and probably the worst divi in the history of the bet

blackbarn that couldn't have been the first Roll Up as I was following it in 1965 !

Kerry LEE (daughter of Richard LEE and now a trainer) until a year ago worked on graphics for Channel 4 Racing. Marcus Armytage writes in todays Sunday Telegraph " In common with many racing professionals she was unclear of too many details of the ITV deal but she offered the opinion that it " could be very good for the sport." She, perhaps more than most of her colleagues, should know.

Even better than the brigadier blackbarn?.Mill reef maybe.I think i remember Cawstons pride being an earlier selection in the same roll up.Over five furlongs she would arguably have started favourite against them all as a two year old.

oldgit,
can't remember Cameronian, maybe before my time (b. 1958)?
Defo Captain Heath treble in the Mail (still exists today). Also the Wizard gave one or two selections everyday and there were unknown correspondents under the names of Northerner, Newmarket, Lambourn and Middleham who gave all horses from their training areas at the bottom of each card. Then there was, and still is, Formcast.

Talking of TV bets....no-one seems to have mentioned the BBC Triella? You had to pick 1st and 2nd in the right order in three BBC televised races. No idea how the dividend was worked out!

Also, there was that stupid Tote bet (can't remember the name, may have been Roll Up?) where you had to pick the first six home in the right order in the big handicap of the day......that didn't last long!!!!

Some posters possibly a bit guilty of looking at past BBC and ITV racing coverage through nostalgic rose tinted glasses.

TV coverage has improved greatly over the years thanks entirely to Ch4's involvement in the sport and the existence of two dedicated subscription channels. That said there's clearly room for further improvement.  One lesson from the past that ITV would do well to heed is that sometimes more results in less, by which I mean that that there are too many presenters/pundits involved in Ch4's current offering and a number of them add very little and one or two detract from the viewers' enjoyment of the total package.

Madhatter:
I'm not sure when Cameronian's Three stopped but it was certainly way after 1958. Despite his name he was in the English and Scottish editions of the Mail. I can't remember his actual name but can still remember how he looked.
I have an old Mail for 19/06/1954 when the tipsters were Goodfellow, Dalrymple, Form, Craven (Newmarket Correspondent) , Cameronian, a one horse tip from GEN, a daily tip called A womans Fancy from an actress, a column of statistics by the Templars. Under each race for the main meeting, Ascot Heath they had a short Form Digest.
Four of the races were for £500, one for £1000 and the top race The Churchill Stakes for £1,200.

It's annoying when big meetings are covered.............. until it's time for Countdown etc., missing the last two or three races.

"Spotform(?) ratings in the Daily Mirror were good too in the 60s and 70s."

THEY ARE STILL GOOD.

Racing coverage back then was more stuffy and static than it is today.  Could never imagine Julian Wilson working alongside Big Mac , and think it's fair to say he didn't much like the idea of sharing the presenting in later days with a female presenter .

Hound 2.

If memory serves, Julian Wilson was responsible for McCririck getting his first break in tv at the Bbc circa 1980.

That was before Mac developed his public persona.

Not so Oldgit. Ask anybody who worked with him in those days.....especially at the Sporting Life.

Can anyone confirm that Mac was Wilson's '****' (or summat) when they were both at Harrow?  Sure I once read that somewhere.  I went to me local comp meself...

Dear me, all I put was a slang name for a cigarette.

@Shalimah -- Anyone remember Raymond Glendenning, i read his biography many years ago ,bit dry but quite interesting.
Found this online

As a pioneer in the art of live commentary Glendenning had his share of mishaps. His ‘hoodoo’ event was the Cambridgeshire race. In 1951 he managed to describe this from start to finish without once mentioning the winner, the aptly named Fleeting Moment. He had, though, a less than ideal vantage point in the stands and struggled to distinguish between forty-five riders, three of whom, including the winner, wore different combinations of the same colours, orange and purple.


Unkind perhaps, and I can't remember where it comes from, but ...

Raymond Glendenning
Rarely knew who was winning
But had invariably seen
That the course was wide and green.

The Pinhooker:
.....especially at the Sporting Life.
So C4 got what they wanted when they took him on ?

Oldgit. Yes, someone with a bookmaking background whose bizarre personality would hopefully attract a game show style audience.

"If memory serves, Julian Wilson was responsible for McCririck getting his first break in tv at the Bbc"

I think your right, and sometime after he got the sack from the Sporting Life C4 threw him a lifeline. Met him briefly a couple of times back in the early 70's when he was doing a Coursing column for The Greyhound Magazine. We thought he was a bit of an oddball, a bit eccentric, not part of the group and a bit loud, colourful character though !

In the early days I think he was good for C4 Racing and he did help bring it to a wider audience, but he went a bit bonkers in the end !  Then made a very bad decision taking them to court and the tribunal ruled against him. C4 claimed the only reason  he was dropped because he was "offensive" and "disgusting". His appearance on BB and other TV shows did become embarrassingly uncomfortable.

Left a trail of havoc wherever he went. But that didn't stop J McCririck having a rewarding career in television. On that account alone, the lad deserves a pat on the back in what is a massively competitive industry.

"...left a trail of havoc.." , one can imagine.

I still have a vinyl LP in the house which was brought out to celebrate the 200th Derby in 1979.It  contains 15 select old Derby commentaries starting with Hyperion in 1933 and ending with Shirley Heights in 1978.Glendenning does the early years, Bromley the late ones. Even without the benefit of mod cons Glendenning was absolutely shocking.

^ I've got 2 vinyl LP's. 1) RED RUM narrated by Lord John Oaksey, with all his 5 Grand National commentaries.

2) THE STORY OF MILL REEF - based on the film Something To Brighten The Morning, narrated by Albert Finney, Peter O'Sullevan and Geoff Lewis.

Haven't played them for a few years, sometimes I think I'll put them on ebay, but it's one of those things you don't really want to sell.