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"The female jockeys are very, very competent riders but perhaps a woman should receive an allowance like a filly does in a race. It's a very physically demanding sport and they're not going to be as physically strong as a bloke. They can't be.
Tactically they can be as good but if it comes down to strength in a finish, a woman is not going to be as strong as a man. There aren't many sports where women compete against men and on a day to day basis are women as physically strong as men? No they're not. It's just fact."
Opinions?
Tactically they can be as good but if it comes down to strength in a finish, a woman is not going to be as strong as a man. There aren't many sports where women compete against men and on a day to day basis are women as physically strong as men? No they're not. It's just fact."
Opinions?
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Absolute ballox.
If they are not stong enough in a finish ,find something eles to do.
Whats the riding fee £150-£180.
Good money for being poor.
Why not pay them £50 per ride.
If they are not stong enough in a finish ,find something eles to do.
Whats the riding fee £150-£180.
Good money for being poor.
Why not pay them £50 per ride.
But in the media we are constantly told that the female riders are every bit as good as their male counterparts and it is only prejudice that prevents them from getting the top rides and winning the big races on a regular basis.
Hayley would have won a few more Group 1s with 7lbs,,,
please Tony - you got away with being the most over rated jockey of all time . I very rarely watch channel 4 but now you are on it i will NEVER watch it again . So if Diego Maradona says games should be 80 instead of 90 , we have to listen .
BOLOX - keep shush , we aint interested in your opinions
BOLOX - keep shush , we aint interested in your opinions
Strange that this - rather ill-thought-out opinion - should emanate after a FEMALE has just WON Australia's richest race..... WITHOUT any, "allowance."
In fact - There ARE far MORE FEMALE Jockeys in Australian racing, than anywhere else - and they currently do very indeed - WITHOUT any, "allowance."
Winona Costin - for example ...
Winona Costin is a apprentice jockey.
Overall Stats
Career Starts 1st 2nd 3rd Win Place Avg Win Odds ROI
Career 2090 211 204 198 10% 29% $7.89 -20%
Yearly Breakdown
Starts 1st 2nd 3rd Win Place Avg Win Odds ROI
2012 141 14 11 8 10% 23% $10.9 8%
2013 523 45 51 47 9% 27% $7.34 -37%
2014 741 87 79 72 12% 32% $6.76 -21%
2015 685 65 63 71 9% 29% $9.13 -13%
In fact - There ARE far MORE FEMALE Jockeys in Australian racing, than anywhere else - and they currently do very indeed - WITHOUT any, "allowance."
Winona Costin - for example ...
Winona Costin is a apprentice jockey.
Overall Stats
Career Starts 1st 2nd 3rd Win Place Avg Win Odds ROI
Career 2090 211 204 198 10% 29% $7.89 -20%
Yearly Breakdown
Starts 1st 2nd 3rd Win Place Avg Win Odds ROI
2012 141 14 11 8 10% 23% $10.9 8%
2013 523 45 51 47 9% 27% $7.34 -37%
2014 741 87 79 72 12% 32% $6.76 -21%
2015 685 65 63 71 9% 29% $9.13 -13%
How many sports do men & women compete in off equal terms ?
They don't face off against each other though do they ?
Level weights round a course individually isn't really the same thing.
Level weights round a course individually isn't really the same thing.
Strength in a finish?
What exactly do they mean by that?
If that were the case, then even a male lightweight jockey can never be as good riding the top weights as a male heavier jockey would be.
Because a fit light jockey won't be as strong as a fit heavier jockey.
So why don't all stables have two main jockeys?
A light jockey for riding the lightly weighted horses, and a heavier muscle man on the higher weighted nags?
They don't do they?
Which knocks McCoys idea on the head straight away.
What exactly do they mean by that?
If that were the case, then even a male lightweight jockey can never be as good riding the top weights as a male heavier jockey would be.
Because a fit light jockey won't be as strong as a fit heavier jockey.
So why don't all stables have two main jockeys?
A light jockey for riding the lightly weighted horses, and a heavier muscle man on the higher weighted nags?
They don't do they?
Which knocks McCoys idea on the head straight away.
Go and watch some videos of Tony McCoy presesnting a horse at a fence ..absolutely awful .
Tom Scu said that when Tony McCoy tells him you didnt do this or do that you have to take note !!!
What do you mean Scu ? There are many jocks better than him , his judge of pace was never the best either .
Tom Scu said that when Tony McCoy tells him you didnt do this or do that you have to take note !!!
What do you mean Scu ? There are many jocks better than him , his judge of pace was never the best either .
Absolute drivel, if that's the best he can come up with maybe he should have kept riding.
McCoy got beaten regularly in tight finishes.
Seems like he must have had an issue with his strength in a finish as well.
He should know, he certainly rode enough losers.
Seems like he must have had an issue with his strength in a finish as well.
He should know, he certainly rode enough losers.
are people really slating Tony McCoy as a jockey?
Unreal, the guy was a great jockey, best over the jumps for many years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJ7XOWWFrM
could anyone else have got witchita lineman home in that race?
Unreal, the guy was a great jockey, best over the jumps for many years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flJ7XOWWFrM
could anyone else have got witchita lineman home in that race?
wichita lineman - brave inca etcetc 
is this the same divvy that got beat on best mate, denman , barracouda , kauto star etc etc ?/
the ones that need a good horseman and not smashing to pieces ???
is this the same divvy that got beat on best mate, denman , barracouda , kauto star etc etc ?/
the ones that need a good horseman and not smashing to pieces ???
Like to see him say that to Cathy Gannon live on air , she'd punch his lights out
and so nearly got beat on master minded at ascot , dreadful ride 
could anyone else have got witchita lineman home in that race?
I dunno, perhaps someone else could have got the horse running and jumping without so much fuss?
And McCoy got the horse on the floor in its next race.
I've seen plenty of rides similar to that from claimers. Yet they usually attract little attention.
I dunno, perhaps someone else could have got the horse running and jumping without so much fuss?
And McCoy got the horse on the floor in its next race.
I've seen plenty of rides similar to that from claimers. Yet they usually attract little attention.
"women jockeys should get an allowance"
correct.to do the shopping,housework and keep the garden well maintained
correct.to do the shopping,housework and keep the garden well maintained
I know one thing.
If women jockeys got a weight allowance there would be an awful lot of male jockeys out of work.
If women jockeys got a weight allowance there would be an awful lot of male jockeys out of work.
Theres no such thing as strength in the saddle. The power you hit your mount with the whip has a negligable effect on the horses performance imho (Presuming its not feather taps) The only and most important factors are balance, pace judgement and tactical awareness
It all depends on what was behind him saying it and whether they were positive or negative reasons, but what most seem to be totally overlooking was that he actually said perhaps and his full quote was:
"The female jockeys are very, very competent riders but perhaps a woman should receive an allowance like a filly does in a race,"
So it seems from that he's suggesting it to be helpful and not in a denigrating way. There doesn't seem to be too many reasons for owners and trainers to book a female jockey off levels rather than a male jockey and so the allowance would act much like it does for apprentices (now why does that sound familiar?) and could give the horse's connections the incentive to give females more rides in races.
Allowances for apprentices offer connections an incentive and allows them to get rides to prove what they can do on their way to becoming established. Yet if you did away with apprentice allowances then which connections would be wanting to put a young kid up on their horse when riding off levels against experienced and established jockeys who have already proved what they can do?
As for the point about lightweight and heavier jockeys having different strength levels, that's an insignificant argument considering the bodyweight difference between jockeys is fairly negligible and there would generally only be a few pounds between them either way, so it's not like you would get a 7 stone and a 11 stone jockey riding in the same race.
As for McCoy being overrated, sorry but that doesn't even deserve a response and strength in the saddle is several other things and not just how hard you hit with the whip.
"The female jockeys are very, very competent riders but perhaps a woman should receive an allowance like a filly does in a race,"
So it seems from that he's suggesting it to be helpful and not in a denigrating way. There doesn't seem to be too many reasons for owners and trainers to book a female jockey off levels rather than a male jockey and so the allowance would act much like it does for apprentices (now why does that sound familiar?) and could give the horse's connections the incentive to give females more rides in races.
Allowances for apprentices offer connections an incentive and allows them to get rides to prove what they can do on their way to becoming established. Yet if you did away with apprentice allowances then which connections would be wanting to put a young kid up on their horse when riding off levels against experienced and established jockeys who have already proved what they can do?
As for the point about lightweight and heavier jockeys having different strength levels, that's an insignificant argument considering the bodyweight difference between jockeys is fairly negligible and there would generally only be a few pounds between them either way, so it's not like you would get a 7 stone and a 11 stone jockey riding in the same race.
As for McCoy being overrated, sorry but that doesn't even deserve a response and strength in the saddle is several other things and not just how hard you hit with the whip.
Bad idea, would cause resentment (justifiable) and would be unsuccessful at whatever it was aiming to achieve (deservedly).
I think it is a bad idea, considering the giant steps female jockeys have made in recent years it wont be too long til we get a real top notch female jockey.
As for 'strength in the saddle', well here's Lester Piggot's answer as to what it means, in his own words, in an interview given in 1970. I doubt the principle has changed much since, and I'd guess he knows what he's talking about. He was a very thoughtful and intelligent jockey, as well as an extremely successful one....
"Well, you need muscular strength to hold a horse that's pulling for his head, a big horse and a real puller, on his way down to the post. And if a horse is big and broad, and he's lazy, and he needs to be squeezed and kicked along to keep him exerting himself, a small, tight jockey can't do it so well. But when you talk about a jockey being 'strong', or being able to ride a strong finish, it's a bit different.
It's like this: a lot depends on the horse's balance. If he loses balance, he loses speed and direction, and that might cost him the race. Part of a jockey's job is to get his horse running balanced, and keep him balanced, and this means you've got to be balanced yourself all the time to fit in with the horse.
The horse has his own centre of gravity just behind his shoulders. The jockey has a centre of gravity. But the jockey can shift his, and the horse can't. At every stride the horse's centre of gravity is shifting in relation to the jockey's. Getting a horse balanced means keeping your balance, every stride, every second, to suit his.
Where strength comes in is that to keep doing this all the time without throwing yourself around in the saddle needs a lot of muscle control - you've got to be holding yourself as still as you can while you're making the right movements. The more control you have over your body, the fewer movements you have to make - but the more muscular effort you need. You need more strength to stand still on one leg than to walk down the street.
No, I don't say it's the strength that bends iron bars. It's the strength of an acrobat on a tightrope. Or of a juggler.
In the finish of the race, as well as keeping your horse balanced you've got to be doing things with him. You've got to be encouraging the horse - moving your hands forward when his head goes forward, squeezing him with your knees, urging him on with your heels, flourishing with your whip, maybe giving him a crack, and all this without throwing yourself off balance, which means doing all these things and not letting yourself get thrown around in the saddle.
In a tight finish a strong jockey may seem to be doing nothing in the saddle except throwing his hands forward - that's all you'll see, but the horse is going flat out, and still going straight. In the same finish a 'weaker' jockey will be throwing himself around in the saddle, and his horse will be rolling about off balance. Keeping the horse balanced in the last hundred yards, and making him put it all in, can take a lot out of a jockey. It's got to be there to start with.
Weight and length come into it again. If a jockey is strong, and he's good, I reckon live weight is better than dead weight. If all of the weight the horse is carrying is live, and the jockey can put it in the right place at every stride, the horse runs freer than he will if part of the weight is in a fixed place, in a bag on his back."
"Well, you need muscular strength to hold a horse that's pulling for his head, a big horse and a real puller, on his way down to the post. And if a horse is big and broad, and he's lazy, and he needs to be squeezed and kicked along to keep him exerting himself, a small, tight jockey can't do it so well. But when you talk about a jockey being 'strong', or being able to ride a strong finish, it's a bit different.
It's like this: a lot depends on the horse's balance. If he loses balance, he loses speed and direction, and that might cost him the race. Part of a jockey's job is to get his horse running balanced, and keep him balanced, and this means you've got to be balanced yourself all the time to fit in with the horse.
The horse has his own centre of gravity just behind his shoulders. The jockey has a centre of gravity. But the jockey can shift his, and the horse can't. At every stride the horse's centre of gravity is shifting in relation to the jockey's. Getting a horse balanced means keeping your balance, every stride, every second, to suit his.
Where strength comes in is that to keep doing this all the time without throwing yourself around in the saddle needs a lot of muscle control - you've got to be holding yourself as still as you can while you're making the right movements. The more control you have over your body, the fewer movements you have to make - but the more muscular effort you need. You need more strength to stand still on one leg than to walk down the street.
No, I don't say it's the strength that bends iron bars. It's the strength of an acrobat on a tightrope. Or of a juggler.
In the finish of the race, as well as keeping your horse balanced you've got to be doing things with him. You've got to be encouraging the horse - moving your hands forward when his head goes forward, squeezing him with your knees, urging him on with your heels, flourishing with your whip, maybe giving him a crack, and all this without throwing yourself off balance, which means doing all these things and not letting yourself get thrown around in the saddle.
In a tight finish a strong jockey may seem to be doing nothing in the saddle except throwing his hands forward - that's all you'll see, but the horse is going flat out, and still going straight. In the same finish a 'weaker' jockey will be throwing himself around in the saddle, and his horse will be rolling about off balance. Keeping the horse balanced in the last hundred yards, and making him put it all in, can take a lot out of a jockey. It's got to be there to start with.
Weight and length come into it again. If a jockey is strong, and he's good, I reckon live weight is better than dead weight. If all of the weight the horse is carrying is live, and the jockey can put it in the right place at every stride, the horse runs freer than he will if part of the weight is in a fixed place, in a bag on his back."
If you gave Emma-Jayne Wilson an allowance at Woodbine all the male Canadian jockeys would emigrate.
As for the point about lightweight and heavier jockeys having different strength levels, that's an insignificant argument considering the bodyweight difference between jockeys is fairly negligible and there would generally only be a few pounds between them either way, so it's not like you would get a 7 stone and a 11 stone jockey riding in the same race.
Yes because that's how they operate.
Nevertheless you could easily have a stone and a half difference between jockeys in the hypothetical situation I suggested.
I don't know where you get a range of 4 stones from.
A stone and a half is a lot of weight to give away around that level when strength is involved.
So trainers obviously do not think that strength is too much of an issue or they would adopt the idea.
Yes because that's how they operate.
Nevertheless you could easily have a stone and a half difference between jockeys in the hypothetical situation I suggested.
I don't know where you get a range of 4 stones from.
A stone and a half is a lot of weight to give away around that level when strength is involved.
So trainers obviously do not think that strength is too much of an issue or they would adopt the idea.
Weight and length come into it again. If a jockey is strong, and he's good, I reckon live weight is better than dead weight. If all of the weight the horse is carrying is live, and the jockey can put it in the right place at every stride, the horse runs freer than he will if part of the weight is in a fixed place, in a bag on his back."
He would say that wouldn't he?
Lester Piggott was quite big for a flat jockey and part of his expertise was to get himself on the best rides.
You can imagine him mumbling away on the phone to an owner trying to jock another rider off a fancied horse.
''I'm bigger than him ain't I, he's got to carry more dead weight in the saddle than me don't he?
Dead loss that.''
I wouldn't trust the word of the tax dodger as far as I could throw him.
He would say that wouldn't he?
Lester Piggott was quite big for a flat jockey and part of his expertise was to get himself on the best rides.
You can imagine him mumbling away on the phone to an owner trying to jock another rider off a fancied horse.
''I'm bigger than him ain't I, he's got to carry more dead weight in the saddle than me don't he?
Dead loss that.''
I wouldn't trust the word of the tax dodger as far as I could throw him.
Dr Crippen 13 Nov 15 16:49
Nevertheless you could easily have a stone and a half difference between jockeys in the hypothetical situation I suggested.
I don't know where you get a range of 4 stones from.
Which is exactly my point. I don't get a range of 4 stone difference from anywhere because it will never happen and so if the weight range is always going to be narrower, then so you would imagine would be any differences in strength which makes it largely insignificant.
What I would say though is that an 11 stone NH jockey is likely to be significantly stronger than a 7 stone Flat jockey. I wouldn't really have thought though that a 8st 4lbs 4 jockey would be significantly stronger than an 8 stone jockey and again that was my point regarding weight differences being negligible.
I also think even a stone and a half weight difference between jockeys would be very rare too, bar maybe an odd occasion when a dual purpose jockey but predominately riding under one code has the odd ride in the alternative one.
Nevertheless you could easily have a stone and a half difference between jockeys in the hypothetical situation I suggested.
I don't know where you get a range of 4 stones from.
Which is exactly my point. I don't get a range of 4 stone difference from anywhere because it will never happen and so if the weight range is always going to be narrower, then so you would imagine would be any differences in strength which makes it largely insignificant.
What I would say though is that an 11 stone NH jockey is likely to be significantly stronger than a 7 stone Flat jockey. I wouldn't really have thought though that a 8st 4lbs 4 jockey would be significantly stronger than an 8 stone jockey and again that was my point regarding weight differences being negligible.
I also think even a stone and a half weight difference between jockeys would be very rare too, bar maybe an odd occasion when a dual purpose jockey but predominately riding under one code has the odd ride in the alternative one.
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