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15 years ago Betfair paraded a coffin in London announcing the end of bookmakers. Today there is news of Betfair merging with one of the biggest recreational bookmakers in the world. How did it all go so wrong?
The original idea was brilliant. Punters bet against themselves directly so the bookmaker takes no risk. Punters loved the new idea. They came in there tens of thousands to bet at bigger prices, lay horses they didn’t fancy and to trade on price movements. We all told our friends and they told their friends. We were all in it together fighting the establishment who was trying to shut Betfair down. Many customers worked for free helping Betfair build its case to stay in business. People like Andrew Black, Mark Davies and Mick Stone understood the change they were making to the world of betting. It was truly a revolution.
As the company grew liquidity grew. All was good. During the 2000s three major problems occurred. (1) Some punters were winning too quickly and (2) International expansion was stopped by increased protectionism (3) They failed to educate punters how to use the exchange.
Betfair has two options to deal with some punters winning too quickly. Either, assess who was winning and take measures to make the exchange fairer to stop them or charge the winners more money. No action was taken to make the website fairer. To this day you have in running betting on racing with a 1 second delay whereas the TV pictures can be over 5 seconds delayed. The on course players are cleaning up. The same applies in tennis. This unfairness drives the recreational punters away.
Their preferred option was the much hated Premium Charge. 40%-60% of winners’ money taxed. The result was the much loved company became hated. It was up there with the rest of them taking every last penny it could with Betfair. But nothing was done to stop the losers losing too quickly. To this day the on course players and courtsiders are still creaming off their supernormal profits. The only difference is Betfair now takes a bigger slice of those profits.
The result of the charge was a quick win for Betfair. But it started the long term decline of the stage. Figures (see ‘THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED’) show that non-inplay betting has been decimated by the Premium Charge. Side markets in all sports have all but disappeared. One of the unintended consequences is some bigger markets have grown due to big players churning money to avoid the charge.
Betfair have no idea how big the exchange would have been without the Premium Charge. 10%-20% annual growth in the horseracing pre-play markets stopped overnight. Without the charge would the average a race be over a million now? We will never know because they took the greedy short term choice rather than deal with the heart of the problem and making the exchange fairer.
It was natural that with the side markets gone, the exchange growth stopped, the Betfair educational department gone and other countries closing the door Betfair would go with sportsbook idea. The new CEO has done a great job for those that hired him. Share price flying and now a merger with his old firm.
But where does this leave the revolution? Those of us who have stuck with the exchange for fifteen years have been betrayed. All the founders left years ago and Betfair is now just another greedy corporation serving its shareholders and top management. The sportsbook is great for them. It brings in the mug money through bait offers like ‘best odds guaranteed’ and free bets. But no one that has a clue can place a bet. Like all the others it is not a bookmaker. It is place where losers hand over part of their pay check each week and winners are not welcome.
It was not supposed to be like this. Andrew Black set out to revolutionise betting not become a bookmaker. It was a good business making tens of millions a year in commission as an exchange. But somewhere along the line they got greedy and wanted more. They got more but the revolutionaries are now firmly part of the old establishment. There were several attempted revolutions in France before the monarchy finally fell. Will there ever be a second betting market revolution?
The original idea was brilliant. Punters bet against themselves directly so the bookmaker takes no risk. Punters loved the new idea. They came in there tens of thousands to bet at bigger prices, lay horses they didn’t fancy and to trade on price movements. We all told our friends and they told their friends. We were all in it together fighting the establishment who was trying to shut Betfair down. Many customers worked for free helping Betfair build its case to stay in business. People like Andrew Black, Mark Davies and Mick Stone understood the change they were making to the world of betting. It was truly a revolution.
As the company grew liquidity grew. All was good. During the 2000s three major problems occurred. (1) Some punters were winning too quickly and (2) International expansion was stopped by increased protectionism (3) They failed to educate punters how to use the exchange.
Betfair has two options to deal with some punters winning too quickly. Either, assess who was winning and take measures to make the exchange fairer to stop them or charge the winners more money. No action was taken to make the website fairer. To this day you have in running betting on racing with a 1 second delay whereas the TV pictures can be over 5 seconds delayed. The on course players are cleaning up. The same applies in tennis. This unfairness drives the recreational punters away.
Their preferred option was the much hated Premium Charge. 40%-60% of winners’ money taxed. The result was the much loved company became hated. It was up there with the rest of them taking every last penny it could with Betfair. But nothing was done to stop the losers losing too quickly. To this day the on course players and courtsiders are still creaming off their supernormal profits. The only difference is Betfair now takes a bigger slice of those profits.
The result of the charge was a quick win for Betfair. But it started the long term decline of the stage. Figures (see ‘THE PREMIUM CHARGE MUST BE SCRAPPED’) show that non-inplay betting has been decimated by the Premium Charge. Side markets in all sports have all but disappeared. One of the unintended consequences is some bigger markets have grown due to big players churning money to avoid the charge.
Betfair have no idea how big the exchange would have been without the Premium Charge. 10%-20% annual growth in the horseracing pre-play markets stopped overnight. Without the charge would the average a race be over a million now? We will never know because they took the greedy short term choice rather than deal with the heart of the problem and making the exchange fairer.
It was natural that with the side markets gone, the exchange growth stopped, the Betfair educational department gone and other countries closing the door Betfair would go with sportsbook idea. The new CEO has done a great job for those that hired him. Share price flying and now a merger with his old firm.
But where does this leave the revolution? Those of us who have stuck with the exchange for fifteen years have been betrayed. All the founders left years ago and Betfair is now just another greedy corporation serving its shareholders and top management. The sportsbook is great for them. It brings in the mug money through bait offers like ‘best odds guaranteed’ and free bets. But no one that has a clue can place a bet. Like all the others it is not a bookmaker. It is place where losers hand over part of their pay check each week and winners are not welcome.
It was not supposed to be like this. Andrew Black set out to revolutionise betting not become a bookmaker. It was a good business making tens of millions a year in commission as an exchange. But somewhere along the line they got greedy and wanted more. They got more but the revolutionaries are now firmly part of the old establishment. There were several attempted revolutions in France before the monarchy finally fell. Will there ever be a second betting market revolution?
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The use of bots is a big contributor to the introduction of PC.and is responsible for several of the problems
I can't beat the bots, especially the Betfair bots. Stuck 200 on a horse today at 2.84. 450 available at that price, but as soon a I push submit, gone, and it never came back. (even though it lost)
I can't beat the bots, especially the Betfair bots. Stuck 200 on a horse today at 2.84. 450 available at that price, but as soon a I push submit, gone, and it never came back. (even though it lost)
Frog2 great great post.The best I have ever read since I joined the so called 'revolution ' in 2000 as Lottaluck.I really think we should all meet up
at racetrack soon and have a good discussion about the future and how we have all been shafted.As you say many of us including myself gave many many years of free time
to helping build up Betfair from scratch.I have met almost everyone at Betfair at Hammersmith and in a corporate hospitality and many racetracks around the country.Listen
to this Frog 2 I have many stories but I once gave Betfair/Flutter about £25,000 in about 2001/2002 not sure but very early days when they really needed the money.
I gave this from my account as they had made a massive mistake in the pricing of beaten distances of each race which I made large sum from.
At that time they rang me up pleading with me to donate the cash to them as many 'Betfairians' had lost a great deal on Betfairs mistake.
I gladly offered the money back every penny and Betfair thanked me and took it back.
I loved Betfair so much at that time and believed in the vision of the founding fathers Andrew Ed and mark that I gave the cash.
Probably was worth in todays money several million pounds.
Anyway great post frog2 the best I have ever read and would be great to contact you sometime.
at racetrack soon and have a good discussion about the future and how we have all been shafted.As you say many of us including myself gave many many years of free time
to helping build up Betfair from scratch.I have met almost everyone at Betfair at Hammersmith and in a corporate hospitality and many racetracks around the country.Listen
to this Frog 2 I have many stories but I once gave Betfair/Flutter about £25,000 in about 2001/2002 not sure but very early days when they really needed the money.
I gave this from my account as they had made a massive mistake in the pricing of beaten distances of each race which I made large sum from.
At that time they rang me up pleading with me to donate the cash to them as many 'Betfairians' had lost a great deal on Betfairs mistake.
I gladly offered the money back every penny and Betfair thanked me and took it back.
I loved Betfair so much at that time and believed in the vision of the founding fathers Andrew Ed and mark that I gave the cash.
Probably was worth in todays money several million pounds.
Anyway great post frog2 the best I have ever read and would be great to contact you sometime.
I gladly offered the money back every penny and Betfair thanked me and took it back.
mind boggling..and you're a known fantasist.
mind boggling..and you're a known fantasist.
25k in 2001 would now be worth several million pounds?
have I got my daft worzel head on...does that really say that?
the story sounded fairy tale stuff and then capped it all with £25,000 in 2001/2002 now worth several millino pounds
The founders of Betfair used some clever marketing to grow their brand in order to make themselves money - pure and simple.
im still trying to figure out how 25k would be worth millions 4yr later tho 
Will 'THE BETFAIR EXCHANGE COFFIN'Come out at Royal Ascot?I remember been told in the early days that it is 'death of the bookmaker'
I am sure you can find all them old videos on the internet.Betfair at that time wanted to send a clear message to punters who had been ripped off
and received poor value from the bookmakers for years to join the 'REVOLUTION'
Maybe time has come to bring the coffin out but change the colours.
I am sure you can find all them old videos on the internet.Betfair at that time wanted to send a clear message to punters who had been ripped off
and received poor value from the bookmakers for years to join the 'REVOLUTION'
Maybe time has come to bring the coffin out but change the colours.
just been rereading that post for the last 5 mins trying to make sense of it,care to explain further pmbet?
£25,000 in 2002 is worth around £37,000 in todays money.
Sparrow I meant as how much Betfair needed the money at that time.
Remember Flutter ran out of cash then they merged with Betfair.
£25,000 in 2001/2002 now worth several millino pounds
maybe to Wonga dot com
maybe to Wonga dot com
If there was a credible alternative we'd all be off. Be interesting if somebody had the balls to go back to those old precious principles wouldn't it and set it up? Purple is fecked and past its sell by date and nothing will reserect that including Lazarus. From small shoots ...
there is a credible alternative daq..one of the mysteries of my life why all the in runners aint switched.
It's up to the big players such as yourself to make the first move.
needs to be a mass migration...aint even been discussed...ming boggling.
The problem seems to be that the main people concerned don't seem to talk to each other.
I'm up for mass migration which would seem sensible but surely not credible alternative and would rather top myself than bet with those numpoes.
I've never used ****, what is seen as the pros and cons with moving to them?
We would be going from a Beano to a Dandy or might even by a Tammy. What about customers because nobody gives a **** about us. Where's the old BF site gone for numpties like me who enjoy simple things like Dom Pom. That's progress. So was Ratners once.
both companies have turned the proverbial back on any customers with half a clue, and the profits roll in. the merger will work because the man at top is different class. Wouldnt have much faith in corals and crookes merger though.
RBoyd86 26 Aug 15 18:59
I've never used ****, what is seen as the pros and cons with moving to them?
no PC.
I've never used ****, what is seen as the pros and cons with moving to them?
no PC.
ok negative? must be one as we havent moved there yet. (i don't pay PC atm to be honest)
RBoyd86 • August 26, 2015 7:11 PM BST
ok negative? must be one as we havent moved there yet
that is the negative!
ok negative? must be one as we havent moved there yet
that is the negative!
dont know any negs really..gruss has a daq ba..plenty liquidity pre race..but in running is hopeless. as i say..nothing much baffles me but this does.
There is no credible alternative because the £20 and £50 punter will not move. The big players need these players to help make the the markets flow. Betfair got all the good press and word of mouth publicity in the early 2000s. They are betting exchanges.
This was a once in a generation chance to get punters into exchanges. When other firms fought back with account closures and gifts for losers Betfair joined them rather than promote the exchange. Instead of a big anti-bookmaker campaign saying how disgraceful retrictions to all but losers are Betfair introduced the Premium Charge and became a bookmaker themselves.
The market is now well and truely split. The exchange for people that might win and lots of offers and crazy prices for people that currently lose. If any of the current losers start to win they too will be banned by bookies.
The only way to stop this train is education. If people cannot win they should not be able to lose. There are so many flashing lights and options punters have no chance unless they get organised and focus on one or two areas of betting. Betting can be entertainment but surely it is more entertaining to try and use skill to pick a winner than bet on anything that moves.
This was a once in a generation chance to get punters into exchanges. When other firms fought back with account closures and gifts for losers Betfair joined them rather than promote the exchange. Instead of a big anti-bookmaker campaign saying how disgraceful retrictions to all but losers are Betfair introduced the Premium Charge and became a bookmaker themselves.
The market is now well and truely split. The exchange for people that might win and lots of offers and crazy prices for people that currently lose. If any of the current losers start to win they too will be banned by bookies.
The only way to stop this train is education. If people cannot win they should not be able to lose. There are so many flashing lights and options punters have no chance unless they get organised and focus on one or two areas of betting. Betting can be entertainment but surely it is more entertaining to try and use skill to pick a winner than bet on anything that moves.
Betfair Marketing Fuels Their Success
While Andrew Black once had a unique idea, he was never shy about sharing it. In fact, he pitched it to everyone under the sun, which perhaps, initially cost him landing venture capital and also increased the competition. By March of 2000, Betfair wasn't live yet, while other exchanges such as Betmart, Betswap, and a few others were. At this point they hired JoJo Pimrose who had formerly worked at Bloomsburg and News International. She had a 12-week deadline to come up with a marketing plan for Betfair's expected June 2000 launch.
Initially, Pimrose had nothing earthshattering to share. Her ideas were along the lines of "the eBay of betting" and "the NYSE of betting," which are rather simplistic pitches. She herself was frustrated and went to a marketing firm called Circus with only a £120,000 budget.
Circus agreed to help and came up with a unique idea. The company would spend £20,000 on a launch party, and then run a "death to the bookmaker" campaign. Ed Wray didn't like the idea, but he went along with it. He and Black appeared in gangster clothing, set up fake bookmakers picketing outside the launch party, and held a New Orleans style funeral running a coffin through the city of London. The media loved it, and there was a huge write up in the Sunday Times and other newspapers. Also, the Racing Post, which was very picky about whom they accepted advertisements from, approached Betfair on their own wanting them to be a sponsor.
While Andrew Black once had a unique idea, he was never shy about sharing it. In fact, he pitched it to everyone under the sun, which perhaps, initially cost him landing venture capital and also increased the competition. By March of 2000, Betfair wasn't live yet, while other exchanges such as Betmart, Betswap, and a few others were. At this point they hired JoJo Pimrose who had formerly worked at Bloomsburg and News International. She had a 12-week deadline to come up with a marketing plan for Betfair's expected June 2000 launch.
Initially, Pimrose had nothing earthshattering to share. Her ideas were along the lines of "the eBay of betting" and "the NYSE of betting," which are rather simplistic pitches. She herself was frustrated and went to a marketing firm called Circus with only a £120,000 budget.
Circus agreed to help and came up with a unique idea. The company would spend £20,000 on a launch party, and then run a "death to the bookmaker" campaign. Ed Wray didn't like the idea, but he went along with it. He and Black appeared in gangster clothing, set up fake bookmakers picketing outside the launch party, and held a New Orleans style funeral running a coffin through the city of London. The media loved it, and there was a huge write up in the Sunday Times and other newspapers. Also, the Racing Post, which was very picky about whom they accepted advertisements from, approached Betfair on their own wanting them to be a sponsor.
Finally as we are in the final days of the exchange people are coming together.Reminds me of the very early days of Betfair.
The death of Betfair exchange is here and the coffin is in the undertakers.
The death of Betfair exchange is here and the coffin is in the undertakers.
Nice post, Frog. Although I had to laugh at your apparent belief that the creation of Betfair was to bring the established firms to their knees and benefit punters? Betfair was just another business being set up and run for nothing but personal gain. The success of it meant expansion was inevitable, and that was always going to be the downfall of the exchange that once was. For how was the "middle man" supposed to expand without increasing commission on big winners? and opening up their own book with all that virtual nonsense and **** casino games that all its competitors have?
Like all big businesses, Betfair couldn't give a **** how many people they inconvenience with change, as long as any change they implement increases their profits.
Betfair was just another business being set up and run for nothing but personal gain. The success of it meant expansion was inevitable, and that was always going to be the downfall of the exchange that once was. For how was the "middle man" supposed to expand without increasing commission on big winners? and opening up their own book with all that virtual nonsense and **** casino games that all its competitors have? Like all big businesses, Betfair couldn't give a **** how many people they inconvenience with change, as long as any change they implement increases their profits.
So when I put my £1.46 ew on at 20/1 with paddy power will the price still automatically change to 16/1 or will the new super organisation be big enough to absorb the potential hit..
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Appformat 19.30 "Only for the golf Sparrow", really? a few examples,note the gulf between back and lay.
P Harrington bf 440-500 bd 310-655
S Piercy bf 270-290 bd 176-440
J Dufner bf 280-290 bd 180-440
Plenty more examples like above for admittedly longer priced players,a while ago bd were matching what was up on bf for a long time(before takeover) but while it is only conjecture on my part there is only a certain amount these days and that figure is very small, as the ad says when it's gone,it's gone. You have a choice of putting in an order at the same price or even a tick or two less and tbf it does get matched quite often but what a shocking mean looking disparity between the two exchanges and the wonder is are them prices there so that a mug takes them and the bd "bot" takes the bf price,no prizes for the answer to that.
P Harrington bf 440-500 bd 310-655
S Piercy bf 270-290 bd 176-440
J Dufner bf 280-290 bd 180-440
Plenty more examples like above for admittedly longer priced players,a while ago bd were matching what was up on bf for a long time(before takeover) but while it is only conjecture on my part there is only a certain amount these days and that figure is very small, as the ad says when it's gone,it's gone. You have a choice of putting in an order at the same price or even a tick or two less and tbf it does get matched quite often but what a shocking mean looking disparity between the two exchanges and the wonder is are them prices there so that a mug takes them and the bd "bot" takes the bf price,no prizes for the answer to that.
lets all stage a march pass Icon One, Lytton Way, Stevenage, Hertfordshire, SG1 1AG, United Kingdom. with our little wooden coffins
will everyone move to the purple site then????very surprised the purple mob,before they flogged it to ladbrokes,never made the inroad into betfairs market after the premium charge
Bookmakers are too clever and have the Gov't im there pocket and punters are too stupid, constantly amazed that people still use bookmakers when betfair is available and how weird is it that there is a legion of forum users that jump up and defend bookmakers on here. There will be a time soon when another exchange can come in take the market
does unbiased work for betfair?
http://community.betfair.com/horse_racing/go/thread/view/94102/28817889/has-the-voler-la-vedette-fiasco-subsided?post_id=514582443#514582443#flvWelcomeHeader
unbiased • January 4, 2012 5:06 PM GMT
How many races traded over the years?
How many major sporting events traded over the last few years?
How many footie matches traded over the years?
How much money traded over the years?
A LOT,WITHOUT TOO MANY HICCUPS,then the Leopardstown race happens and many are turning it into a major catastrophe for players and this exchange.
It wasn't a major catastrophe,it was a glitch that didn't affect many,yet they want to put the boot in,and turn it into something it isn't.
You should speak as you find,and I have traded large sums since the early days of Betfair when they had much smaller premises and only a handful of staff.No problems over those years whatsoever,and no,I don't work for them,but am a shareholder.
How many have had any serious problems?I would imagine very few,and when you think of the amount transacted on here they would be highly insignificant.
http://community.betfair.com/horse_racing/go/thread/view/94102/28817889/has-the-voler-la-vedette-fiasco-subsided?post_id=514582443#514582443#flvWelcomeHeader
unbiased • January 4, 2012 5:06 PM GMT
How many races traded over the years?
How many major sporting events traded over the last few years?
How many footie matches traded over the years?
How much money traded over the years?
A LOT,WITHOUT TOO MANY HICCUPS,then the Leopardstown race happens and many are turning it into a major catastrophe for players and this exchange.
It wasn't a major catastrophe,it was a glitch that didn't affect many,yet they want to put the boot in,and turn it into something it isn't.
You should speak as you find,and I have traded large sums since the early days of Betfair when they had much smaller premises and only a handful of staff.No problems over those years whatsoever,and no,I don't work for them,but am a shareholder.
How many have had any serious problems?I would imagine very few,and when you think of the amount transacted on here they would be highly insignificant.
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Fulham-WHITE-adults-football-shirt-2002-03-Adidas-NEW-SIGNED-BETFAIR-SIZE-M-L-/181820316378
collectors item one day ?
collectors item one day ?
its a pity bf didnt ring pmbets after the vlv fiasco,he could have given them a few million then i would have got my £20k instead of the offer of a commission free bet on the chinese volleyball.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
37,621.70
37,621.70
Responding the OP - Agree with almost everything in the post. I used to work with bf in the early days 2002-2004. The problem was in the early days even though the number of users was growing fast bf wasn't really making much money and once the free acquisition of new players dried up they had to look at other options. This is where they made key mistakes in trying to expand too fast in new markets that cost them lots of money rather than continue with their solid growth that was eating into the bookies share.
I didn't have a problem with their expansion into games, poker etc but that should have been done one they had captured a bigger share of punters via the exchange. Once they started expanding too fast and the costs became too high they started with the PC and other changes in commission points for more revenue. Yes, they needed to address the fact that some people were winning too quickly (fairly or unfairly) but they needed to do it an another manner that made the game fairer and incentivised liquidity providers and straight punters and charged traders more (they've always had the best deal with bf).
Idealistically many of us are disappointed that bf didn't turn out to be what they said they set out to be but from a business standpoint they've been a huge success.
I didn't have a problem with their expansion into games, poker etc but that should have been done one they had captured a bigger share of punters via the exchange. Once they started expanding too fast and the costs became too high they started with the PC and other changes in commission points for more revenue. Yes, they needed to address the fact that some people were winning too quickly (fairly or unfairly) but they needed to do it an another manner that made the game fairer and incentivised liquidity providers and straight punters and charged traders more (they've always had the best deal with bf).
Idealistically many of us are disappointed that bf didn't turn out to be what they said they set out to be but from a business standpoint they've been a huge success.
...and then this happened...
1 - create a membership forum
2 - elect steering committee
3 - create business structure based on 'not for profit'
4 - write constitution based on 'by the customer for the customer'
5 - start-up funding via crowdfunding
6 - build pilot exchange
7 - develop exchange to commercial standard
8 - begin commercial operation
9- carry betfair coffin through street
1 - create a membership forum
2 - elect steering committee
3 - create business structure based on 'not for profit'
4 - write constitution based on 'by the customer for the customer'
5 - start-up funding via crowdfunding
6 - build pilot exchange
7 - develop exchange to commercial standard
8 - begin commercial operation
9- carry betfair coffin through street
"pmbets 26 Aug 15 19:31
Finally as we are in the final days of the exchange people are coming together.Reminds me of the very early days of Betfair.
The death of Betfair exchange is here and the coffin is in the undertakers"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a load of kak."They've all got it in for us punters". Moan,moan,moan.Always look on the black side.Paranoia rules OK !They should call this forum the Moaners Forum.
Finally as we are in the final days of the exchange people are coming together.Reminds me of the very early days of Betfair.
The death of Betfair exchange is here and the coffin is in the undertakers"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
What a load of kak."They've all got it in for us punters". Moan,moan,moan.Always look on the black side.Paranoia rules OK !They should call this forum the Moaners Forum.
Artie, we can always count you to pop up for the defence. Is Paddy Power the best thing since sliced bread?
OK - there is a lot of pessimism surrounding this merger and rightly so. This is however an incredible opportunity for EVERYONE and what PP BF should do is this (sadly probably 'a million' to happen):
- Remove all restrictions from existing accounts.
- Offer to open a new account for customers that have been closed.
- Guarantee to lay any bet to any customer to a minimum liability of £1k. As neither firm guarantee to lay advertised prices to any worthwhile extent they wouldn't be exposed to seven figure liabilities beyond their control.
- Welcome arbers with open arms (see below).
The benefit to PP BF would be:
- Overnight they would become the largest Sportsbook in the world with unprecedented potential for growth worldwide.
- Increased turnover and profits.
- 'Marks' for every sport from informed customers - handy if running the world's largest Sportsbook.
- Reinvigorate the exchange liquidity with money from the Sportsbook arbers, after all with guaranteed commission taken into the account PP BF would in reality be laying the Sportsbook bet at under the odds 'taken'. This initiative would result in exchange growth which is currently considered highly improbable.
- 'Winners Welcome', a marketing dream (and the original BF ethos). No more need for giant pants and an alcoholic octopus. No real need to offer such outlandish sign up incentives (immediate saving there).
- Footfall - increased numbers of online customers would allow PP BF to push and grow other products such as casino, arcade, pools, Tote, foreign TAB etc.
PP BF would be taking on greater risk with the above strategy but if employing the best traders and odds compilers it could be manageable imo. Are you going to be aggressive or passive PP BF, world's largest Sportsbook or just one of the crowd?
- Remove all restrictions from existing accounts.
- Offer to open a new account for customers that have been closed.
- Guarantee to lay any bet to any customer to a minimum liability of £1k. As neither firm guarantee to lay advertised prices to any worthwhile extent they wouldn't be exposed to seven figure liabilities beyond their control.
- Welcome arbers with open arms (see below).
The benefit to PP BF would be:
- Overnight they would become the largest Sportsbook in the world with unprecedented potential for growth worldwide.
- Increased turnover and profits.
- 'Marks' for every sport from informed customers - handy if running the world's largest Sportsbook.
- Reinvigorate the exchange liquidity with money from the Sportsbook arbers, after all with guaranteed commission taken into the account PP BF would in reality be laying the Sportsbook bet at under the odds 'taken'. This initiative would result in exchange growth which is currently considered highly improbable.
- 'Winners Welcome', a marketing dream (and the original BF ethos). No more need for giant pants and an alcoholic octopus. No real need to offer such outlandish sign up incentives (immediate saving there).
- Footfall - increased numbers of online customers would allow PP BF to push and grow other products such as casino, arcade, pools, Tote, foreign TAB etc.
PP BF would be taking on greater risk with the above strategy but if employing the best traders and odds compilers it could be manageable imo. Are you going to be aggressive or passive PP BF, world's largest Sportsbook or just one of the crowd?
As strange is it sounds being profitable can come with an opportunity cost.
Although the exchange is obviously profitable,it's margin relative to sportsbook,casino,games etc is minuscule. The guaranteed profit on the exchange isn't relevant because their current strategy (ie losers only welcome) on each Sportsbook is also essentially a guaranteed profit model but with massively contrasting profit margins.
Data mining will be massively increased but anyone that thinks the low margin exchange model will in any way benefit from this takeover is living on cloud cuckoo land.
Although the exchange is obviously profitable,it's margin relative to sportsbook,casino,games etc is minuscule. The guaranteed profit on the exchange isn't relevant because their current strategy (ie losers only welcome) on each Sportsbook is also essentially a guaranteed profit model but with massively contrasting profit margins.
Data mining will be massively increased but anyone that thinks the low margin exchange model will in any way benefit from this takeover is living on cloud cuckoo land.
Also was BC a plant?
The trinity college graduate spent 12 years working at PP (majority of his working life to that point, a PP lifer?). BC was appointed to the head of non-retail development in 2001 and was rewarded with promotion to his first corporate position three years later. He would then spend a further eight years climbing the corporate ladder with PP which culminated with him being rewarded the position of CEO.
"We have known each other a long time. I used to wear a green jacket. We have been speaking intensely over the summer and warmly for a time before that.”(BC in the FT)
Was the green jacket ever removed?
3 Years is just about the minimum timescale that this stroke could have being pulled off without alarm bells clattering. They must have creamed themselves when the news of the LADS/CORAL merger was announced and hence the plan was expedited.
Th perfect timing as consolidation is rife in the bookmaking industry to counter act taxation changes and limits to the FOBTS in UK
The trinity college graduate spent 12 years working at PP (majority of his working life to that point, a PP lifer?). BC was appointed to the head of non-retail development in 2001 and was rewarded with promotion to his first corporate position three years later. He would then spend a further eight years climbing the corporate ladder with PP which culminated with him being rewarded the position of CEO.
"We have known each other a long time. I used to wear a green jacket. We have been speaking intensely over the summer and warmly for a time before that.”(BC in the FT)
Was the green jacket ever removed?
3 Years is just about the minimum timescale that this stroke could have being pulled off without alarm bells clattering. They must have creamed themselves when the news of the LADS/CORAL merger was announced and hence the plan was expedited.
Th perfect timing as consolidation is rife in the bookmaking industry to counter act taxation changes and limits to the FOBTS in UK
If he is a plant why wait until Betfair shareprice has gone up 3 or 4 fold due to him bringing in the 'sportsbook for losers only' into Betfair?
If he was a plant surely he would not have worked so hard to add so much value to Betfair in the eyes of the city. 3 years ago PP could have picked up Betfair for peanuts.
PP already has a sucesfull sportbook so it doesnt need Betfair sportsbook as well. How many extra hard picked losers does Betfair sportsbook have that PP does not already have on its books?
As Peter Webb said on his blog this looks more like empire building by the CEO.
If he was a plant surely he would not have worked so hard to add so much value to Betfair in the eyes of the city. 3 years ago PP could have picked up Betfair for peanuts.
PP already has a sucesfull sportbook so it doesnt need Betfair sportsbook as well. How many extra hard picked losers does Betfair sportsbook have that PP does not already have on its books?
As Peter Webb said on his blog this looks more like empire building by the CEO.
He dramatically altered the strategic direction of the company from a dangerous exchange model to a company targeting the majority growth through a fixed odds sportsbook (ie just another normal competitor). The exchange model was a massive danger to the sustainability of the traditional fixed odds bookmaker model and it's not a coincidence that the 2 most prominent exchanges have been taken over by major traditional bookmakers.
The initial target was to change the direction of the company and perhaps the takeover strategy only later evolved but they were extremely satisfied with the ease of the LADS/Coral merger. This is not a merger but a PP takevover at an admittedly premium (no pun intended) price
I don't think they quite anticipated the extent of the share price growth either (BF's P/E ratio has a lare degree of anticipated future profitability factored into it) but the primary focus was to switch the direction of the company from the worrying exchange model to a company which is targeting its growth through a fixed odds sportsbook,games,casino,bingo
The initial target was to change the direction of the company and perhaps the takeover strategy only later evolved but they were extremely satisfied with the ease of the LADS/Coral merger. This is not a merger but a PP takevover at an admittedly premium (no pun intended) price
I don't think they quite anticipated the extent of the share price growth either (BF's P/E ratio has a lare degree of anticipated future profitability factored into it) but the primary focus was to switch the direction of the company from the worrying exchange model to a company which is targeting its growth through a fixed odds sportsbook,games,casino,bingo
"If he was a plant surely he would not have worked so hard to add so much value to Betfair in the eyes of the city. 3 years ago PP could have picked up Betfair for peanuts"
They wouldn't have sold to PP then the same as they rejected takeover last year, they needed their man leading the executive and if not making the decisions at least having a major influence over the rest of the executive
They wouldn't have sold to PP then the same as they rejected takeover last year, they needed their man leading the executive and if not making the decisions at least having a major influence over the rest of the executive
companies are merging all the time, its ultimate business model and breaks and limits the growth of the smaller companies, its the only winning strategy.
Name one sucessful merger that added value for shareholders?
Aug 27, 2015 -- 10:41AM, frog2 wrote:
Name one sucessful merger that added value for shareholders?
A very strange question, there are thousands of examples of mergers that have added immense shareholder value through synergies and cost savings (normally employees lose out)
Exxon and Mobil merged and would become the largest company by market capitalisation in the world at one stage (only now passed by tech comp)
the pp shareholders are to get 8o million dividend if the merger is complete,that is one big carrot.and pp shares have risen this morning +330.so it looks like the market expect the deal to go through.
The service announcement looks like one of those dodgy African -mails, the spelling is shot to pieces.
I've just seen that. It is semi-literate. Amazing.
Sounds like it was written by my 5 year old niece. I told you betfair had turned in to an absolute shower.
surely most who pay the premium charge are just bot users?
surely most who pay the premium charge are just bot users?
sadly not LR , but it is a common belief that it is only bot users that pay PC
sadly not LR , but it is a common belief that it is only bot users that pay PC
The main problem here is that Betfair is a business. To run a successful business, it's not about being sentimental to your customers or trying to prop up professional gamblers. It's not a charity.
To make your business successful, you need to constantly develop and expand your userbase. Otherwise you will in time be taken over by a fresher and more refined version of your earlier self.
Hence the merger with Paddy Power, which can in theory widen their userbase. The fact this might worsen even further the chances of any individual making a living out of Betfair, well I'm sorry but the nub here is that those in charge couldn't care less.
That's capitalism for you.
To make your business successful, you need to constantly develop and expand your userbase. Otherwise you will in time be taken over by a fresher and more refined version of your earlier self.
Hence the merger with Paddy Power, which can in theory widen their userbase. The fact this might worsen even further the chances of any individual making a living out of Betfair, well I'm sorry but the nub here is that those in charge couldn't care less.
That's capitalism for you.
"Andrew Black set out to revolutionise betting not become a bookmaker"
I'm afraid that's not the case. Like most businessmen, he set out to make money. That's the bottom line. Everything else is incidental to that fact.
He spotted a gap in the market and went for it, and it came off.
I'm afraid that's not the case. Like most businessmen, he set out to make money. That's the bottom line. Everything else is incidental to that fact.
He spotted a gap in the market and went for it, and it came off.
i get critisised every day for laying 1000 & betting 1.01
i also came on betfair for one reason...'to make money'
not to be a great pre race judge.
i also came on betfair for one reason...'to make money'
not to be a great pre race judge.
LR , without knowing some figures such as how much liquidity the PC payers generate/people that make their income from betfair , it is hard to say whether or not these people are actually welcomed by betfair or not imo .
it is an eco system after all , take out one thing and another suffers
it is an eco system after all , take out one thing and another suffers
I came on betfair forums to learn from the best and the most knowledgeable. can count on one hand the people that taught me what
I needed to know to start me off on my own path of learning, then id break things down and make my own discoveries and innovations. the money part was secondary, soon its going to be the primary objective.
I needed to know to start me off on my own path of learning, then id break things down and make my own discoveries and innovations. the money part was secondary, soon its going to be the primary objective.
The death of Betfair exchange is here and the coffin is in the undertakers
I dont think so. Not while bookies themselves need exchanges to create a price guide and lay off their liabilities.
Thats why Ladds bought l'daq.
I dont think so. Not while bookies themselves need exchanges to create a price guide and lay off their liabilities.
Thats why Ladds bought l'daq.
Roida- did you have any trading experience prior to Betfair?
roida Joined: 12 Feb 11
Replies: 8682 27 Aug 15 13:36
i get critisised every day for laying 1000 & betting 1.01
..........
Not here.
I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability.
Shame there aren't betting at the extremes - that's what makes an exchange.
Replies: 8682 27 Aug 15 13:36
i get critisised every day for laying 1000 & betting 1.01
..........
Not here.
I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability.
Shame there aren't betting at the extremes - that's what makes an exchange.
frog2 27 Aug 15 09:16
Artie, we can always count you to pop up for the defence. Is Paddy Power the best thing since sliced bread"
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I am not defending anyone.Paddy restricted/closed my account years ago,as did most other bookmakers.I am merely pointing out that none of you moaners, even the highly articulate ones,have the slightest idea what Paddy's plans are.It's all just paranoid fantasy.
Artie, we can always count you to pop up for the defence. Is Paddy Power the best thing since sliced bread"
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I am not defending anyone.Paddy restricted/closed my account years ago,as did most other bookmakers.I am merely pointing out that none of you moaners, even the highly articulate ones,have the slightest idea what Paddy's plans are.It's all just paranoid fantasy.
Artie
Years of experience has taught us to expect the worst!
Years of experience has taught us to expect the worst!
thirty-three 27 Aug 15 16:06
Artie
Years of experience has taught us to expect the worst!"
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So did you get "the worst", when exchanges started ? Did you get the worst when bookies started offering BOG ? Did you get the worst whem BF started offering extra place terms etc. ? Paranoid fantasies. "they've all got it in for us poor little punters" !
Artie
Years of experience has taught us to expect the worst!"
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So did you get "the worst", when exchanges started ? Did you get the worst when bookies started offering BOG ? Did you get the worst whem BF started offering extra place terms etc. ? Paranoid fantasies. "they've all got it in for us poor little punters" !
pp havent the brains to do anything bar advertise in their usual gimicky way.
will still restrict and bar
why would they change that?
unless they have seen the potential knock on effect before the horseracingforum (not the betfair one lol) start to influence the bhb...
i have a feeling the bhb will make a decision in the next year or two which will bring bookmakers to their knees.
they can pull their product from who ever they want.....its the biggest weapon against firms who drive people away from the sport.
they have the ability to set up their own and if they only have horseracing they will drag over a LOT of football bettors too....
we live in hope.
will still restrict and bar
why would they change that?
unless they have seen the potential knock on effect before the horseracingforum (not the betfair one lol) start to influence the bhb...
i have a feeling the bhb will make a decision in the next year or two which will bring bookmakers to their knees.
they can pull their product from who ever they want.....its the biggest weapon against firms who drive people away from the sport.
they have the ability to set up their own and if they only have horseracing they will drag over a LOT of football bettors too....
we live in hope.
I think the bhb employed an ex bookie to run their show not to long ago ,so who knows ,perhaps they are thinking of going into the business for themselves.And they own the cake.if they do it will be smaller slices for the rest.
Artie
Why don't list the good things we should expect from PP?
Why don't list the good things we should expect from PP?
Artie
Why don't list the good things we should expect from PP?
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I expect no change,but I have no idea what PP's plans are,and neither have you.
Why don't list the good things we should expect from PP?
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I expect no change,but I have no idea what PP's plans are,and neither have you.
And by the way.
"So did you get "the worst", when exchanges started "
Bookies did not start the betting exchanges.
"So did you get "the worst", when exchanges started "
Bookies did not start the betting exchanges.
OK. I'll say what you want to hear.I think PP will compile a list of all successful punters,and will send hit men around to "bump them off" !
They do not give punters time to be successful as you are shut down within half a dozen bets if you beat the price.
guys,hold on,Betfair haven't gone away,they are just changing there name at the top of the screen.
And if paddy(who will have the same name)bring extra money to the table it will have to be good for all of us.
but it depends of course how they plan to run the merger,and if paddy is no good at the moment,and betfair is no good at the moment we have nothing to lose.So who knows there may be improvement because there will be more money in the markets due to the merger if it occurs.
And if paddy(who will have the same name)bring extra money to the table it will have to be good for all of us.
but it depends of course how they plan to run the merger,and if paddy is no good at the moment,and betfair is no good at the moment we have nothing to lose.So who knows there may be improvement because there will be more money in the markets due to the merger if it occurs.
My god.Some positive thoughts.Shoot that man immediately !
they are two big names(how both conduct their business is another story).I am sort of thinking that both together as a team could corner the gambling market once and for all provided of course they run the new merger correctly.
if they do it correctly they could revolutionise the gambling industry once and for all.
if they do it correctly they could revolutionise the gambling industry once and for all.
PP's champers gone flat in the boardroom on viewing their new acquisition 
brassneck gets a few posts vetted and he becomes the choirboy walking advert
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